What should be a Charisma check and what should be a Speech check?

[wooziemode]

I'm currently creating a very large mod that rebalances the whole game*, from skill/S.P.E.C.I.A.L. checks to combat. I've been trying to figure out a way to distinguish Charisma and Speech checks but I've been having a hard time defining the meaning of both things.

*I didn't know if I should post this on modding. Thought it would fit better here since I'm not asking technical stuff, just help with the definition of both things.

QUESTION 1: Low charisma characters should be unintentionally rude or clueless about another's feelings, even when well intentioned?

QUESTION 2: Should things that "lift the mood" raise Charisma, such as eating high quality food or drinking? If yes, why shouldn't it affect Speech instead? Should it affect both?

QUESTION 3: Should the delivery of a phrase depend on Charisma or Speech?

EXAMPLE 1:

Mick from Mick & Ralph asks if you work for one of the casinos. Both the fail check and the success check just prompt a "no". Should it be a Charisma or a Speech check?

EXAMPLE 2:

You want to buy Thrust Control Modules from Old Lady Gibson. She tells you she wants a few hundred caps, but you say "But you're going to cut the price to 250 because I'm just that charming, right?". Should it be a Charisma or a Speech check?

EXAMPLE 3: Should there be penalties for having low Charisma such as only being able to say rude things such as "fuck off" when a child talks to you, or being grumpy when offering help for free?

Thank you in advance for your input.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

In my opinion Charisma should be used for when people are doing something for you just because they like you or trust you. Whereas Speech should be used when your character is persuading or deceiving someone using FACTS AND LOGIC.

I think Example 1 should be a Charisma check because Mick doesn’t really have anything to go off other than how likable/trustworthy you seem, considering you’re only giving a one word answer (and you’re not even lying).

Example 2 could go either way. It should probably be a Speech check based solely off the fact that it’s a longer sentence that seems carefully worded to convince Gibson to give you a deal, but if your character isn’t charming in the first place (represented by the Charisma stat) then I doubt that line would work. So really it should be both a Charisma and Speech check. Although personally I think anything to do with getting a better deal should fall under the Barter skill.

Example 3 I’m not sure about

 

[Alphons]

I'm currently creating a very large mod that rebalances the whole game*, from skill/S.P.E.C.I.A.L. checks to combat. I've been trying to figure out a way to distinguish Charisma and Speech checks but I've been having a hard time defining the meaning of both things.

Sounds interesting, would you be willing to make a separate thread in Modding forum what are your plans for other parts of the game?

1 and 2- I agree with @Iprovidelittlepianos

EXAMPLE 3: Should there be penalties for having low Charisma such as only being able to say rude things such as "fuck off" when a child talks to you, or being grumpy when offering help for free?

Low Charisma PC shouldn't be just rude, but appear untrustworthy and have harder time earning trust. Would it be possible to program some skill checks to be lower/ higher depending on Charisma (not every single one)? Reputation could also be used as a crutch for low Charisma.

For example- High Charisma PC talks to kid. Kid feels relaxed around the PC, which maybe lowers the dialogue checks?

Low Charisma PC tries to talk with the kid, but weirds him out and kid refuses to talk (but will interact with PC once he earns enough Reputation in the area).

High Charisma PC offers to do something for free. Quest giver might give him the job, even if he doesn't quite have the right qualifications.

Low Charisma PC offers to do something for free. Even if he has the right skills, quest giver refuses because he doesn't trust the PC.

 

[wooziemode]

I feel like there should be a very clear distinction between both, and while they do intertwine a little bit (Charisma does add a little bit to Speech), they should have their own functions. Just because someone is very likable it doesn't mean they can present a good argument, and vice versa. Maybe that's where the difference should be? I doubt Lanius would care much about how much of an asshole you are, as long as you convince him in a way that makes sense rationally. Alternatively, I doubt Joana will care about your arguments while flirting with her. She will care more about how confident you are in yourself, your body language and how "smooth" you talk.

The idea about having skill checks that require both is pretty good though. You could get very creative making checks for Charisma and Speech, or Charisma and Barter, or Barter and Speech, depending on the context and the area of knowledge required. Barter

The part about quest giving could definitely work, but I'm not so sure about how I could make use of existing voice lines in the game. I thought about just adding flavor text when your Charisma is low but not too low, like being slightly too assertive or insensitive, and at very low Charisma, outright removing dialogue that isn't rude (example: forcing you to insult Sarah Weintraub's vault items or forcing you to lose your patience when Daniel refuses to give you the Zion Canyon map) and maybe adding a small infamy gain when appropriate.

 

[EatingSewerPoop]

Charisma is defined as “a special magnetic charm or appeal”. It’s a natural thing that someone is born with. So a charisma check would just rely on the fact that people naturally like your character. I think charisma checks are very niche. So the lady Gibson check would be charisma.

I think speech is more like using facts or “debate” tactics. So a check where the character explains something, points out a flaw, or proves something wrong. It makes me think of that “I use facts and logic to own the libs” meme. That’s kinda like a speech check.

Also a speech check could be something that plays off of psychology/human nature. Basically telling someone what they want to hear. Something like a fortune teller or those people who talk to your dead relatives. I’m a retard so I can’t articulate this point the way I want to, hopefully you understand what I’m getting at.

The mick check would be charisma. You’re not using any manipulation tactics. If I’m not mistaken, the fail version of that check is also just saying “no”. High charisma means you look trustworthy to people.

You’re idea is pretty cool though. I don’t think it would work with my definitions though because there would not be many charisma checks.