What would Jesus buy?

[Kahgan]

The celebration of midwinters survived in spite of christianity, it was one of the adaptions made to christianity to make people accept it easier. And the importance was never about Christ or beeing good to the poor or anything, it's the celebration and gathering of family/friends. It strengthens the bonds and can make new bonds between family members and other families. Politics, actually.

 

[SuAside]

What if you started making crafts for them instead of buying stuff? I think that these types of presents can be more heartfelt and thoughtful because of the time and effort you have placed into creating them (especially if it is actually useful to them!).

maybe some people prefer bought crap over homemade crap.
seriously... as if the shite i can make comes anywhere near the quality of stuff that i can buy.

get the fuck off my lawn, you goddamn hippie!

if the bought stuff you get is crap and not useful, blame yourself. it means the people buying you presents don't know you and don't understand what you need.

while i can appreciate the value of a homemade gift, it's retarded to assume that just anyone could make something worthwhile or useful to the person he's giving it to...

 

[SimpleMinded]

Continuing with Suaside's comment... what exactly are you talking about making for your family?

I would love to do that but honestly I have NO idea what I could make someone that would be anywhere near useful.

 

[alec]

a bottle of flavored vinager?

 

[Kahgan]

Well that's kind of the problem with modern consumerism, people are so used to being able to go out and buy whatever they want (and to ridiculously low prices), that they have no idea how to actually make something useful for them selves. Which in turn makes them more or less unable to appreciate the real value of the items they buy one day and throw away the next. And more importantly, unable to appreciate the value of hand made and/or non-industrial products.

 

[SimpleMinded]

So what you're saying is I should quit my job and spend the next few weeks studying electronics and create a digital camera for my father, and then bitch when he says it's not good enough to use?

I mean, this rational works for young children where you could... make simple toys for them, but I feel like for the general person, there isn't much they would ever use that any normal person could make, except maybe art work or a sculpture... and well, not all of us can draw like Wooz

 

[Ozrat]

Because naturally the holiday would have become just as wide-spread as it is today if the birth of Christ wasn't celebrated on it and it stayed a pagan festival, right?

The equinoxes and solstices are recognized and honored in just about every culture in the world, before Christ and even in today's modern world. It's an event based on a predictable phenomenon that can be observed everywhere on the planet and isn't going away any time soon. Traditions varied from one region to another but the spirit is basically the same, to honor the solstice and what it represents (birth, death, a mysterious higher power...).

Continuing with Suaside's comment... what exactly are you talking about making for your family?

To friends I'll be giving away a lot of wild rice that I harvested this year. All it required was some knowledge, a canoe, a push pole, a pair of sticks, a partner, and an inexpensive permit. For very little investment, and some well-enjoyed early fall afternoons spent on the water enjoying the wildlife around me, I am able to gift my friends with a gourmet traditional food that is usually expensive and hard to find even in health food stores.

For other friends I may give away some of the leather bracelets that I have been making lately. Very easy to make with a small strap of leather and cutting a few slits into them to allow for to be woven into a 'mystery' braid pattern and adding a couple of snaps or other fastners. I saw a few being sold at an artsy store for a good price and I remembered the basics of the mystery braid from learning it as a kid, so it wasn't much effort to make them. Again, a very cheap investment with some time and knowledge added together made a bunch of unique gifts that will intrigue most folks when they look at it.

In the past I have made unique coffee tables with scrap pieces of wood from other projects. There are several holiday ornaments that my family uses that were made from family and friends, even simple things like clay scultures baked in an oven. One year about two decades ago my parents made holiday cards from birch bark, another year they made candle holders; a lot of the people that received them saved these and still use them as part of their holiday decorations every year.

If you know someone that loves eating your homemade meals, try making them a homemade cookbook with your special recipes... If you know that they enjoy birdwatching, find a pinecone and smoother it with peanut butter and seeds... Origami figurines... Even something as simple as a hand-written letter will be valuable to someone who shares this holiday with you... Brew some beer and wine, keep the good batches for yourself and give away the rest... Figure out what you can do or learn to do that you can share with others.

Well that's kind of the problem with modern consumerism, people are so used to being able to go out and buy whatever they want (and to ridiculously low prices), that they have no idea how to actually make something useful for them selves. Which in turn makes them more or less unable to appreciate the real value of the items they buy one day and throw away the next. And more importantly, unable to appreciate the value of hand made and/or non-industrial products.

I completely agree. It's ironic how someone can be intimidated and disenfranchised by the concept of creating something useful and unique for themselves or others.

 

[Kahgan]

So what you're saying is I should quit my job and spend the next few weeks studying electronics and create a digital camera for my father, and then bitch when he says it's not good enough to use?

No, because your father won't need a new digital camera every year. It's completely possible to learn how to use your hands and still earn enough money to once in a while buy an expensive item that is close to impossible to produce without machinery.

 

[Ozrat]

Kahgan, what kinds of gifts do you craft during your spare time?

 

[Sander]

Well that's kind of the problem with modern consumerism, people are so used to being able to go out and buy whatever they want (and to ridiculously low prices), that they have no idea how to actually make something useful for them selves. Which in turn makes them more or less unable to appreciate the real value of the items they buy one day and throw away the next. And more importantly, unable to appreciate the value of hand made and/or non-industrial products.

So how you define value if not through market forces?

 

[Ozrat]

So how you define value if not through market forces?

Value
val·ue [ vállyoo ]
noun (plural val·ues)

- the amount (of money or goods or services) that is considered to be a fair equivalent for something else
- worth or importance: the worth, importance, or usefulness of something to somebody
- the quality (positive or negative) that renders something desirable or valuable
- respect: regard highly; think much of
- prize: hold dear
- measure: evaluate or estimate the nature, quality, ability, extent, or significance of
- an idea or belief held by an individual or group
- caring for others, for example, is a value

 

[Sander]

That's not an actual answer, Ozrat. People keep saying that people are losing sight of the 'real value' of things. What is that real value, then? If the society you live in deems something is worth a certain amount, how is that not the actual value in that society? Value is not an absolute thing.

 

[Ozrat]

Sander, please do not stuff words into my mouth, why are you implying that I claimed value is an absolute thing? All of the definitions of value that I provided are relativities. Who am I to give you a definite case of value and expect you to hold it to equal value? Who am I to say that something is more or less valuable than what you personally hold it to be? This topic is about gifts exchanged between friends and family, between people with deep social bonds and sharing an understanding each other's values.

You asked for the definintion of value and I gave you several. I will assume that you define value by market forces. If not, then I bounce back your challenge of defining 'real value' to your side of the court.

 

[Kahgan]

So how you define value if not through market forces?

To be honest, it's hard, and I may be biased. But I'll try anyway. Let's say I make a knife from scratch, all the way from a piece of iron and steel to the finished product including naturally tanned leather sheath with metal fittings. Now I will take this to a market and put it on a stand. The price will be fairly high, but I will never get close to the hour wage I could by working for any company in my own country. But that's the draw back with doing something I enjoy, I can live with that.
OK, now people are coming to the market, they will look at my nice hand made crafts, and be astonished by the work, but then they will walk over to the guy next door, selling imported crap that may have traveled half the globe, using x times more resources in the long run, and buy something vaguely resembling what the saw at my stand. Then they will walk away, and be all like, "yeah that guys' stuff was pretty good but his prices were outrageous"
At the same time they might earn 35$ an hour doing nothing but pushing paper.

And after all that, I have to pay taxes, VAT, and all that shit.

And when people complain about high food prices, high gas prices, high prices of anything, they fail to see what insane amount of resources actually went into getting things almost to their fucking doorstep. For *historically* low prices. Almost any guy with Internet connection has enough money to eat him/her self to death. Never before has so many people been able to eat themselves to death.

But hell, I can understand why people keep on living like this, I would myself, I'm a fully educated carpenter and could have owned a house by now if I really wanted to. But it just bored me to apathy living like that, up at 5, work at seven, home at 4, eat, watch TV, sleep. (plus any hobbies, but then they are no more than just that, hobbies) No real life.

 

[Sander]

Sander, please do not stuff words into my mouth, why are you implying that I claimed value is an absolute thing? All of the definitions of value that I provided are relativities. Who am I to give you a definite case of value and expect you to hold it to equal value? Who am I to say that something is more or less valuable than what you personally hold it to be? This topic is about gifts exchanged between friends and family, between people with deep social bonds and sharing an understanding each other's values.

Yes, that's called emotional value. That's not what Kahgan was talking about. He was talking about actual value.

@Kahgan: you're defining value by the effort the creator put into it. There's a difference between value and cost. There's no reason handmade and machine-made equivalent products should cost different amounts for consumers.

Yes, I understand that what you make may be if higher quality. But not all higher quality is worth paying a higher price for, no matter how much effort the creator put into it.

 

[Ozrat]

Yes, that's called emotional value. That's not what Kahgan was talking about. He was talking about actual value.

Would you argue that sharing a meal with someone has no actual value if the meal is made from scratch with homegrown ingredients? If not, then please explain yourself better than this.

There's no reason handmade and machine-made equivalent products should cost different amounts for consumers.

This is not a definition of value, this is a failure at comprehending the fundamental basics of our global economy.

Yes, I understand that what you make may be if higher quality. But not all higher quality is worth paying a higher price for, no matter how much effort the creator put into it.

Now that is a definition of value. Get it now?

 

[Kahgan]

@Kahgan: you're defining value by the effort the creator put into it. There's a difference between value and cost. There's no reason handmade and machine-made equivalent products should cost different amounts for consumers.

Yes, I understand that what you make may be if higher quality. But not all higher quality is worth paying a higher price for, no matter how much effort the creator put into it.

Well, of course I may very well be going into a dead end with my ideologies of keeping true to the old traditions of making things from scratch and being self dependent. And maybe it would be better to try finding ways to improve production of necessary commodities. But as of today, the low price we pay for everything from food to useless items like iphones and whatnot are still a result of exploitation of other people. And even if the price people would pay other places for a certain item is lower than it is for us, the real value is what it would cost if you actually had to spend the time to either do it yourself or have a craftsman make one of the item once. Just imagine how expensive a mobile phone would have been if a cobolt digger in Kongo got payed the same as a Norwegian oil worker.

Mind that I'm not arguing the definition of *real value*, or the actual value of an item by what people are willing to pay for it, but rather what *should* be the real value of items. If you get what I'm sayin'

 

[Sander]

Would you argue that sharing a meal with someone has no actual value if the meal is made from scratch with homegrown ingredients? If not, then please explain yourself better than this.

No, I'd argue that the actual value (in the sense that Kahgan was talking, ie economic value) is whatever the market price for that meal would be. In this case the market consists of one person, so the value would be however much that one person would want to pay for that meal.

This is not a definition of value, this is a failure at comprehending the fundamental basics of our global economy.

Statements do not truth make.

Yes, I understand that what you make may be if higher quality. But not all higher quality is worth paying a higher price for, no matter how much effort the creator put into it.

Now that is a definition of value. Get it now?

No it isn't. That's an explanation, not a definition. Furthermore, if you're going to say "this isn't a definition" at one sentence, and then say "this is a definition" at the next, maybe you should try mentally connecting two different sentences.

Well, of course I may very well be going into a dead end with my ideologies of keeping true to the old traditions of making things from scratch and being self dependent. And maybe it would be better to try finding ways to improve production of necessary commodities. But as of today, the low price we pay for everything from food to useless items like iphones and whatnot are still a result of exploitation of other people. And even if the price people would pay other places for a certain item is lower than it is for us, the real value is what it would cost if you actually had to spend the time to either do it yourself or have a craftsman make one of the item once. Just imagine how expensive a mobile phone would have been if a cobolt digger in Kongo got payed the same as a Norwegian oil worker.

I disagree with the idea that that should be the real value of the item. The world has never (apart from thousands of years ago) been that isolated that value was determined by the amount of effort you'd have to go through to produce it. Silk, for instance, was always extremely expensive in the Western world not so much because of the manufacturing process, but because it had to be imported from China. Different parts of the world pay different amounts of money for the same product and for

For instance, if you did instantly start paying every worker in China the same amount of money you do Western workers, that's going to lead to huge problems for the local Chinese economy as well. And over time, these wages will (and do) rise to similar levels.

Also note that there is probably less exploitation happening in the world right now, relative to the world population, than ever at any point in time.

 

[Kahgan]

Well, of course I may very well be going into a dead end with my ideologies of keeping true to the old traditions of making things from scratch and being self dependent. And maybe it would be better to try finding ways to improve production of necessary commodities. But as of today, the low price we pay for everything from food to useless items like iphones and whatnot are still a result of exploitation of other people. And even if the price people would pay other places for a certain item is lower than it is for us, the real value is what it would cost if you actually had to spend the time to either do it yourself or have a craftsman make one of the item once. Just imagine how expensive a mobile phone would have been if a cobolt digger in Kongo got payed the same as a Norwegian oil worker.

I disagree with the idea that that should be the real value of the item. The world has never (apart from thousands of years ago) been that isolated that value was determined by the amount of effort you'd have to go through to produce it. Silk, for instance, was always extremely expensive in the Western world not so much because of the manufacturing process, but because it had to be imported from China. Different parts of the world pay different amounts of money for the same product and for

I agree that the world has never been so simple. But I still think it's sickening to hear spoiled kids screaming their guts out when all they got was something like twenty times the amount of presents their parents could hope for when they were young. And it still sickens me to see people throw away "expensive" items in perfectly good working order, just because new technology has become available since last year. While still complaining about whatever prices being too high. Like gas prices...

For instance, if you did instantly start paying every worker in China the same amount of money you do Western workers, that's going to lead to huge problems for the local Chinese economy as well. And over time, these wages will (and do) rise to similar levels.

In my opinion, people in china shouldn't be payed more, people in the west should be payed less. And frankly, I'm not very concerned over the local economy anywhere, the system as it is now, is flawed, it has never been perfect and never will be, but that's no reason to continue like we do.
And a small percentage of the population is using more resources every day now than what would have been outrageous for a relatively short time ago. I can get into my car right now and drive my lazy ass over to a gas station and stuff my mouth full of food. And I'm not even moderately wealthy by western standards. My grandparents could not do that at my age. not by a long shot.

Also note that there is probably less exploitation happening in the world right now, relative to the world population, than ever at any point in time.

I wouldn't be so sure, but even if that's right, 1 billion hungry people across the world is in my opinion worse than ever before. Regardless of the percentage.

 

[Sander]

I agree that the world has never been so simple. But I still think it's sickening to hear spoiled kids screaming their guts out when all they got was something like twenty times the amount of presents their parents could hope for when they were young. And it still sickens me to see people throw away "expensive" items in perfectly good working order, just because new technology has become available since last year. While still complaining about whatever prices being too high. Like gas prices...

That's when happens when there are surpluses.

In my opinion, people in china shouldn't be payed more, people in the west should be payed less.

Why?

And frankly, I'm not very concerned over the local economy anywhere, the system as it is now, is flawed, it has never been perfect and never will be, but that's no reason to continue like we do.
And a small percentage of the population is using more resources every day now than what would have been outrageous for a relatively short time ago. I can get into my car right now and drive my lazy ass over to a gas station and stuff my mouth full of food. And I'm not even moderately wealthy by western standards. My grandparents could not do that at my age. not by a long shot.

Yep. This means that we are living much better lives than our grandparents were. Isn't it wonderful?

I wouldn't be so sure, but even if that's right, 1 billion hungry people across the world is in my opinion worse than ever before. Regardless of the percentage.

Is it? Because percentage-wise, that's not that much. And the only reason that there got to be this many people in the first place is the fact that the Western world is so wealthy.

Could all this wealth be distributed more fairly? Well, sure. But it's no worse than it was decades ago.