What's a "human"?

[Per]

If the 'robo brain' is made to be an exact replica of your brain (if not in shape, then at least in contents), the 'conciousness' of this robo-brain would, in fact, be 'your' conciousness. I don't see any reason why not.

I "download" your brain specs into this hypothetical perfect robo-brain. I then pull out a huge gun and say I'm going to shoot either you or your robo-replica. Will you shrug and laugh or will you each be pointing at the other guy?

Reading this made me thing of GiTS. Great anime that explores much of the issues that might creep up if this technology ever really exists.

I haven't seen the series, but the movie was fairly sketchy and inconsistent with the metaphysics.

 

[Jebus]

If the 'robo brain' is made to be an exact replica of your brain (if not in shape, then at least in contents), the 'conciousness' of this robo-brain would, in fact, be 'your' conciousness. I don't see any reason why not.

I "download" your brain specs into this hypothetical perfect robo-brain. I then pull out a huge gun and say I'm going to shoot either you or your robo-replica. Will you shrug and laugh or will you each be pointing at the other guy?

We'll each be pointing at the other guy, I guess - having the same brain doesn't mean we somehow merge into some sort of telepathic shared-brain superbeing. At least I don't think so, such a situation hasn't happened yet of course. But it seems unlikely.

 

[Gonzalez]

This project will not succeed. The technology just doesn't exist to even start working on it. The most scientist had managed to accomplish is to recreate one cubic millimeter of the brain of a rat with a bunch of chips that are larger than the rat's head. And I suspect the damage they repaired from the rat is nothing that the brain itself wouldn't had managed to rearrange in other existing parts of itself. So that mouse is probably going to be wearing a ridiculous oversized useless chip on it's head for the rest of it's life for no reason.

 

[Crni Vuk]

yeah, but now its Cyberpunk rat. Thats worth something.

 

[Gonzalez]

In the question of what happens if it does work, then the answer would be... not much.

From what I've red, they are trying to recreate a physical brain, using hardware and software to run simulations, they are not actually building a self conscious mind.

It would recreate the brain's synapsis, they would then run some tests on the simulation and draw conclusions that would help them understand brain diseases.

I think the confusion here is a hardware/software one. They are just going to recreate the hardware, they are not going to use it to either create an artificial intelligence or store an existing human mind.

So it's never going to be human, it's going to be a simulation of a physical human brain, not even an actual physical artificial brain, but a simulation of one, using computer hardware and software to simulate human hardware.

 

[Crni Vuk]

its still an rather questionable project. Not saying that the idea isnt interesting. But if you consider how many obstacles have to be actually defeated then it really doesnt seem like they will have a big chance for success.

Still curious how that guy managed to convince those people to throw some billion dollar at him ... they should have better thrown that money down to greece or no clue. maybe "helping" people. Its not like Europe is in its best shape right now.

 

[Jebus]

Still curious how that guy managed to convince those people to throw some billion dollar at him ... they should have better thrown that money down to greece or no clue. maybe "helping" people. Its not like Europe is in its best shape right now.

I don't know, I see it as a good thing to keep investing in cutting edge research despite current problems. AFAIK, all nations do that. You can't risk future growth (too much) because of current problems, after all.

 

[Crni Vuk]

doing basic research is one thing.

Throwing 1 billion euro (in funding over 10 years) at some rather unrealistic project that is very likely to fail (as like experts say that) while half of europe is falling apart thx to banks closing and insolvency is another thing.

You know, I dont have a problem with spending money on research. But if the project they fund here doesnt work then you have to somehow explain the people why you wasted some 20 years of taxes on such an project.

This whole "idea" sounds totally stupid anyway, like "hey! we have bilions of money! lets burn it away at something that sounds interesting". You have to ask your self if we really have the money to do something like that when there are well, actually people that have serious problems. And you dont have to go Africa or some other places where people starve.

Now, why have they not come up with an idea like, to use those 1 bilion euro over the next 10 years to improve the conditions in those parts of Europe that are not up to living standarts. Like the suburbs of Parise full with its ghettos. Or maybe the new east european stats that joined the EU, reforms in economy, infrastructure, education and so on. I am sure you could gain A LOT more in the next 10 or 20 years from using money to promote better education or support for young smart people to get their ass in some university and to create jobs for academics in Europe.

 

[BonusWaffle]

Ive wondered about this ever since i saw the transporters in star trek. I figure if you can create an exact replica of your brain and effectively have two versions of yourself existing simultaneously, your double becomes a completely different entity as soon as it experiences new memories from a different point of view. Like how identical twins who do everything together as kids sometimes think and act the same because of shared experiences and genetics, but as they get older they do things more and more differently because of differing experiences.

 

[Jebus]

doing basic research is one thing.

Throwing 1 billion euro (in funding over 10 years) at some rather unrealistic project that is very likely to fail (as like experts say that) while half of europe is falling apart thx to banks closing and insolvency is another thing.

You know, I dont have a problem with spending money on research. But if the project they fund here doesnt work then you have to somehow explain the people why you wasted some 20 years of taxes on such an project.

This whole "idea" sounds totally stupid anyway, like "hey! we have bilions of money! lets burn it away at something that sounds interesting". You have to ask your self if we really have the money to do something like that when there are well, actually people that have serious problems. And you dont have to go Africa or some other places where people starve.

Now, why have they not come up with an idea like, to use those 1 bilion euro over the next 10 years to improve the conditions in those parts of Europe that are not up to living standarts. Like the suburbs of Parise full with its ghettos. Or maybe the new east european stats that joined the EU, reforms in economy, infrastructure, education and so on. I am sure you could gain A LOT more in the next 10 or 20 years from using money to promote better education or support for young smart people to get their ass in some university and to create jobs for academics in Europe.

On the other hand, on the off chance this research leads to spectacular new brain treatments or groundbreaking new AI, the pay-off is going to be exponentially higher than this funding. As a long-term investment, I still think it's much better spent this way than throwing it at ghettos all over Europe (it'd be a drop in the ocean anyway).

Who knows, Crni, maybe they'll be able to come up with a chip to implant in your brain in order to improve your grammar/spelling. It'd be worth it just for that.

 

[Akratus]

Ive wondered about this ever since i saw the transporters in star trek. I figure if you can create an exact replica of your brain and effectively have two versions of yourself existing simultaneously, your double becomes a completely different entity as soon as it experiences new memories from a different point of view. Like how identical twins who do everything together as kids sometimes think and act the same because of shared experiences and genetics, but as they get older they do things more and more differently because of differing experiences.

Reminds me of The Prestige.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHKan75x7GI&t=01m49s

 

[Crni Vuk]

On the other hand, on the off chance this research leads to spectacular new brain treatments or groundbreaking new AI, the pay-off is going to be exponentially higher than this funding. As a long-term investment, I still think it's much better spent this way than throwing it at ghettos all over Europe (it'd be a drop in the ocean anyway).

Jeebs you can do better then that.

Helping people which have issues should be a priority. don't be like that, you sound almost like DB.

I mean imagine that, there are many kidz out there, which are very smart. One of them could be the next Mozart, or Albert Schweitzer maybe finding a cure for AIDS. But since they have no future, because their parents are poor like crap and they have to grow up in a environment where you either have a job or you go to jail they spend most of their future on crack and whores. Just becaues our Jeebs here wants his artificial brain to play with - Yes I am overly dramatic, but just for the fun of it.

What I am saying is that education has often enough to do with money, how much you earn, how your parents earn etc. Despite the fact that we are proud in Europe about it that "everyone has access to education" its a pipe dream and it could not be further away from reality. There are as well a lot of nations in Europe with serious issues. Like Cyprus, Spain, Greece, Italy and many more. Those would welcome some help, I am sure. But yeah, lets throw billions of euros at unrealistic projects while the banks continue to screw us over. Thats going to help people I am sure. Not to mention the nations inside of Europe which are STILL not up to the European standarts which among many other reasons is one of the sources for the problems we have now. Germany, France and a couple of other nations are the leading factors in Europe as far as money goes while others like for example Spain are on the other side of the fence. Not to mention new east european states like Poland. What is it helping to fund some brain project when Europe might colapse on its own weight at some point?

Who knows, Crni, maybe they'll be able to come up with a chip to implant in your brain in order to improve your grammar/spelling. It'd be worth it just for that.

See, I said you can do better.

 

[Tagaziel]

You do realize there is no common pool of money, right? You have a budget which is strictly divided into different sectors. Even if they wanted, they can't redirect money from one area of the budget to another without amending it.

 

[Crni Vuk]

they, if they wanted, could do everyting in their might to actually help the people.

It is interesting, because it reminds me to something that is going on in Germany once "we" had our issues with banks.

For years our government is telling us that money for reforms, like health care, education, walefare etc. is very scarce.

But it was, wonder why, no problem to throw billions at banks to save them.

Hmm. I guess starving kidz (and yes they exist in Germany as well) isnt as important like to save some bank for the shit they did in the last 10 years.

 

[Jebus]

On the other hand, on the off chance this research leads to spectacular new brain treatments or groundbreaking new AI, the pay-off is going to be exponentially higher than this funding. As a long-term investment, I still think it's much better spent this way than throwing it at ghettos all over Europe (it'd be a drop in the ocean anyway).

Jeebs you can do better then that.

Helping people which have issues should be a priority. don't be like that, you sound almost like DB.

I mean imagine that, there are many kidz out there, which are very smart. One of them could be the next Mozart, or Albert Schweitzer maybe finding a cure for AIDS. But since they have no future, because their parents are poor like crap and they have to grow up in a environment where you either have a job or you go to jail they spend most of their future on crack and whores. Just becaues our Jeebs here wants his artificial brain to play with - Yes I am overly dramatic, but just for the fun of it.

What I am saying is that education has often enough to do with money, how much you earn, how your parents earn etc. Despite the fact that we are proud in Europe about it that "everyone has access to education" its a pipe dream and it could not be further away from reality. There are as well a lot of nations in Europe with serious issues. Like Cyprus, Spain, Greece, Italy and many more. Those would welcome some help, I am sure. But yeah, lets throw billions of euros at unrealistic projects while the banks continue to screw us over. Thats going to help people I am sure. Not to mention the nations inside of Europe which are STILL not up to the European standarts which among many other reasons is one of the sources for the problems we have now. Germany, France and a couple of other nations are the leading factors in Europe as far as money goes while others like for example Spain are on the other side of the fence. Not to mention new east european states like Poland. What is it helping to fund some brain project when Europe might colapse on its own weight at some point?

Jezus, Crni, this is a useless discussion. Education spending etc. is done by national governments, while this research grant is done by the EU. It's a totally different level. The European Union doesn't directly invest in social and education programmes on national levels (it does in inter-European exchange programmes etc.; but that's a different thing from the sort of spending you're talking about).
In the same vein, the money "thrown" at the banks are EU Central Bank (another different institution) loans, which have to be repaid to the EU CB in full (with intrest).

You're comparing apples to oranges to lemons here, and your issue is completely without ground.

As to your "you can do better" quip, I still believe no money is ever better spent than money spent on cutting-edge research, especially when it's a long-term goal like this one. Sure, the billions of Euros spent on the Large Hadron Collider, for instance, could also have been spent on education (I mean, it couldn't because it's also an international project, but I'm talking hypotheticals here); but still the LHC is going to prove to be a faaaaar more worthwhile investment than social programs would ever be. Especially when comparing the costs: the LHC has a total budget of €7.5 bln, which is a drop in the ocean compared to the total EU-27 education spending of approx. €634,61 bln.* That's 1,2% compared to the total EU education spending. Likewise, the €0,5 bln of funding given to the cyber-brain project in question is 0,08% of the total EU-27 education budget. And it's not even the same budget.

You're the one that's not even trying, Crni, you just have no grasp on the huge numbers that are involved in the EU economy. €0,5 billion is peanuts.



*How I came by this figure: according to Eurostat, total public expenditure in the EU-27 in 2009 was 5,4% of EU-27 GDP; while EU-27 GDP in 2009 was €11 752 bln.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Jebus, Jebus.

All I am saying is that there are bigger fish to fry then making an unrealistic project like the "human brain".

It just seems totally stupid to me to waste that money while there are so many issues inside of Europe.

- nice that you say cutting-edge research when even PROFESSIONALS are very skeptical and critical about this project.

 

[Jebus]

Jebus, Jebus.

All I am saying is that there are bigger fish to fry then making an unrealistic project like the "human brain".

It just seems totally stupid to me to waste that money while there are so many issues inside of Europe.

- nice that you say cutting-edge research when even PROFESSIONALS are very skeptical and critical about this project.

Did you even bother to actually read the contents of the critiques against this project, including the ones in the article you yourself linked (which is, incidentally, the same one as I linked. Hence why I don't think you even bothered to read anything.)? Neuroscientists aren't claiming he's a fraud or a pseudo-scientist, or that his project is a pipedream, they're mad about his excessive showmanship, the fact that the size of this project might starve other fields of means or cause controversy in regards to animal testing, and that his current simulations are lightyears away from what he's saying he'll work towards.
Also, this shit it how science *works*. Scientists are *supposed* to critique one another, it's the very essense of science. You shouldn't take that to mean that he's a snake-oil salesman.
Also, the grant was awarded to him by a panel of scientists. Goes to show.

If you truly think the EU Flagship initiatives are a waste of money better spent on social issues, then you're full of shit. They're all geared towards social goals: cutting-edge research towards medicine and robotics (as in robots who provide assistance to people). How could there possibly be "bigger fish to fry"? What could possibly be more important?

Like the ancient Greek proverb says: "A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit." If you want the human race & conditions for all to improve, you sometimes have to invest now for benefits you might not see for another ten, twenty or even fifty years. If you can't see the the value in investing money in that, especially when it's peanuts compared to what IS spent on social development, then you're the very epithet of short-term thinking. You should become a politician.