What's with Advanced Power Armor MKII in Fo3?

[Ausir]

It was said by Bethesda IIRC, that Tactics is non-canon. Later it was altered by Fo3 in that canonicity was extended to the presence of a rogue BoS detachment around Chicago, but that's about it.

The exact answer I got from Emil was:

Fallout Tactics -- Interesting question. I guess the answer is.... "sort of." I consider the high-level events (that is, the migration of the Super Mutants to that area, and the Brotherhood of Steel's pursuit) to be canon. But I certainly wouldn't consider that game's choice of contemporary military equipment, and veering from the 1950's vibe, to be canon at all. It's just way too much of a departure from the original vision.

It all boils down to what we should consider "high-level" enough. We know that the existence of the Midwestern Brotherhood is canon, as is them encountering the remnants of the Master's army, and at least some of the super mutants joining the Midwestern BoS. I would also say that the story of the Calculator is more or less canon as well, even if not in all of the details, as are the Reavers, as a major faction. And Chris Taylor (who is now in charge of FOOL) said that he considers Tactics canon where it doesn't contradict FO1 and 2.

But yeah, the power armor designs (or any of the FOT-specific designs) are probably not canon.

 

[big brother]

A moderator insulting a user. It would be surprising but... I must admit it does fit in the hater mold this site seem to love so much.

Bethsada said they didn't plan to use anything from Fallout Tactics, I have never seen them say the design of a suit was non canon.

And if there is one thing I've learned from reading around 3 decades of comics, it's that what is canon one day can be forgotten the next and vice versa.

 

[Public]

And if there is one thing I've learned from reading around 3 decades of comics, it's that what is canon one day can be forgotten the next and vice versa.

It can mean only 2 things:

1. You're right, and we should be accenpting Beth's new aproaches.
or
2. We, humans, have been doing this for too long...


I can understand and accept the changes made by the original designer/creators, but bethesda are not the creators of Fallout.

 

[Ravager69]

Although the design of APA is damn ugly in F3 and not practical at all, I must say that it is a minor problem here. The main question is: HOW THE HELL THEY HAVE SO MANY OF THEM? It seems every Enclave grunt in F3 has uber equipment and as far as I can tell, this were suppose to be the *remnants" of the Enclave. Unless, of course, they have a power armor facility somewhere in Raven Rock.

 

[big brother]

I can understand and accept the changes made by the original designer/creators, but bethesda are not the creators of Fallout.

You're right, any changes made to Batman since Bob Kane stopped doing it is evil and should never have been done. This means no Batman Begin, No Dark Knight and Batman is still written like it was in 1960.

I know it's not exactly the same thing but my point remains. We have seen through the years many intellectual property change hands and sequels be done by others. Some crashed miserably, others surpassed the previous incarnation and of course some stayed in the same range of quality.

But the even the changes made by the worst film/book/tv show/etc ARE canon. Until they pull a "Batman Begins" and decide to wipe the slate clean. Maybe the company after Bethsada will decide to do that but until then they decide what is canon.

 

[Holocausto]

I hate how Power Armor lost what made it so special.

The fact that I am no longer a walking tank, destroyer of scum, killer of many and saver of few that has bullets ping of me is a big let down.

So far the only solution is to put the game on Easy to get that "HAR HAR RAIDER SCUM YOUR PUNY GUNS CAN'T HARM ME FOR I AM IN MIGHTY POWER ARMOR NOW DIE!!!" feeling.

bethesda IMO either do not understand how to balance F3 game assets with a self checking LOGICAL formula or they don't want to. Either they do not understand the principles of how to approach this or they have made a deliberate decision NOT to make the game strategically deeper. My guess if it was a deliberate decision would be because beths target audience (do I need to mention?) generally don't like juggling variables, making hard choices instead of having it all, getting frustrated by limitations & by using their brain as opposed to button finger too much. I have yet to use power armor myself in game but judging by its stats I can tell it appears to be a glorified motorcycle leather outfit.

Let me design for you beth since you seem to be lost: Power armor needs to be appropriately heavy and add strength to the user (I think they got that right). It needs to be COSTLY, VERY COSTLY. It needs to provide ALOT of protection against low level kinetic attacks (pistol rounds, grenades, & good resistance to rifle rounds). The issue of repair probably needs to be re-evaluated for them and maybe only have them repairable by well equipped repair shops in settlements instead of by you out in the middle of nowhere with what tools again? Can you cut and mold carbon fiber/advanced materials easily? Instead of radiation protection (which is very doubtful IMO unless it's made of lead which can actually stop radiation) have the suits protect against fire, poison and kinetic attacks (which logically they would be very good at taking into account the materials they are made from).

Now power armor gives the wearer greater strength so the only people who should be able to use certain big guns like the minigun or gatling lazer are POWER ARMOR WEARERS!! Yes kidz endless lollypop time is over! Let me say something else: the minigun beth depicted is based on a real on which weighs 35 pounds IRL. Regular HUMANS (mutants can still use them) are not going to sling a 35 pound gun with a backpack of ammo bringing the grand total weight of the weapon to close to 60 pounds! Why the hell do you think they are MOUNTED on something IRL? Just because the Terminator can fire it doesn't mean a HUMAN can! (notice the difference between a cyborg & human here bethy?) Oh I know it's just so "cool" though. Yeah it's also so "stupid" but let's ignore that tidbit to the further detriment of proper game balance. Stop before you do something really stupid beth! (too late).

Ok...see how the balance is coming along bethy? Stay with me there's more: Miniguns & gatling lazers should be tweaked for serious destructive capabilities representing what they should be capable of (already tweaked them myself but that's not the point). These prized weapons need to be COSTLY AS HELL AS DOES THEIR AMMO to economically limit & balance out the destructive combo so you can be a walking tank BUT it's going to cost you a bunch and it will NOT be convienent but a smart player will accept & understand those LOGICAL & balancing tradeoffs and the game will not be "broke" in the process. Do you get it beth? IS this too complicated to handle for yous bethy?

 

[Wooz]

 

[Holocausto]

Yes I'm ready, lol.

 

[Ravager69]

AFAIR, there are miniguns that can be carried by humans in the Fallout world. Take a look at Fallout 1 and 2, your PC as well as other non-mutant\power armor-wearing folks could use it.

 

[Holocausto]

AFAIR, there are miniguns that can be carried by humans in the Fallout world. Take a look at Fallout 1 and 2, your PC as well as other non-mutant\power armor-wearing folks could use it.

Yes, I know but I'm trying to provide a solution to bethesdas supremely idiotic game balancing style. beths approach as I see it is to essentially nerf & devalue everything (weapons & armor alike) to the point that their roles are reduced to somethin purty to look at & take sum screenshotz of yur awesumm looking character while not actually functioning in a believable manner.

Of course if everything were playing by sane logical rules the game would no longer be a cakewalk and enemy and PC alike would be much more ferocious in their defense & attack capabilities. As an example 1 strike from a missile launcher should end any living thing in the game if it hits it. But of course the reverse is also true so if you see a missile coming at you you better get sheltered behind or under something because you are going to die no matter what level or gear you are wearing. Most gamers don't want to play hardcore like that which is why we have what we have from ms betherworth. I don't care what F1, or F2 did. I'm looking at it from a purely logical standpoint regardless if that breaks with tradition. I don't care who started it I just want it stopped.

well what makes the Powerarmor in Bethesdas Fallout crap is just the copy paste simplicity of Oblivion. Damage and and the armor system work in Fallout 3 almost as how it is in Oblivion. It really is more or less like a "deadric" armor of some sort.

Where you had several stats for damage in Fallout 1/2 you have more or less one "generic" damage for Fallout 3.

I have had enough of beths BULLSHIT. What's hilarious just from preliminary testing is that power armor doesn't seem to do much good when the HELMET has a tiny DR not in line with the rest of the suit. So headshot = you might as well be wearing a clown mask and not an armored full coverage helmet. The stupidity is STUPENDOUS!

Also would it kill bethy to use some f,,king technical names of the armor other than identifying it by what group is wearing it? How bout T-47a instead of just "outcast power armor/BOS etc"? Are the kidz too stupid to understand the significance of numbers & letters indicating different models? What about the f..king PRICE/VALUE? In F1/2 according to wikia a certain PA suit goes for $25.000. Seems appropriately VALUABLE for the protection it provides. In Oblivion (apocalypse edition) similar armor can be had for couch change. BS, yeah I've had enough of it. I am going to mod all power armors to fall in line with what you could call "reality" and consistency with game canon instead of BS retarded schemes of beths. Stay tuned....

 

[Alphadrop]

Just to clarify. The helmets add to your general DR, it is not specific to that body part so you can get away with wearing no helmet and it won't matter if your shot in the head as it uses the body armour DR.

 

[Holocausto]

Just to clarify. The helmets add to your general DR, it is not specific to that body part so you can get away with wearing no helmet and it won't matter if your shot in the head as it uses the body armour DR.

Hmmm you might be right I don't know for sure. But I've sniped talon mercs heads off in one shot with no prior damage inflicted on them though I can't remember if it was a critical hit or not which could explain that. I don't know.... EDIT yeah I believe you are correct. It was probably just the damage multiplier on the head mimicking a lack of actual armor....

 

[Public]

I know it's not exactly the same thing but my point remains. We have seen through the years many intellectual property change hands and sequels be done by others. Some crashed miserably, others surpassed the previous incarnation and of course some stayed in the same range of quality.

And Fallout 3 is one of this "miserable crashes".

I put it in a wrong context before. Changes made by the original creators are more accepted, because they usually know what they are doing with it and what will "fit". The guys in Bethesda came up with many ideas that did not fit into Fallout, mainly because they are not the original creators. Todd, Pete and Emil are fans not of the whole game, they are fans of the violence in the game, so it's like if some dude liked very, very much the Batcar in the Batman comic books, and bought rights to make a series where batman is driving in his Batcar: shopping, clubbing and to get some bitchez, in every each episode. Because it's cool these days. Would you accept that "change" to the Batman?

BTW: The Joker in the comic books was a schizophrenic psychopath taking pleasure from making crimes and pissing off Batman. Heath Ledger showed it in much better way than Jack Nicholson did in the previous Batmans. The Joker by Jack was just Jack Nicholson in makeup, Heath was playing an actual psychopathic criminal.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Just to clarify. The helmets add to your general DR, it is not specific to that body part so you can get away with wearing no helmet and it won't matter if your shot in the head as it uses the body armour DR.

As said ... just like in Oblivion ...

 

[UncannyGarlic]

And if there is one thing I've learned from reading around 3 decades of comics, it's that what is canon one day can be forgotten the next and vice versa.

In many never-ending american comics yes, in comics in other countries, not as much (thinking Japanese and Korean specifically), and in graphic novels, never. It's due to the nature of syndicated American comics, they aren't about consistent stories but about familiar characters doing familiar things with different twists (though there is the two year rule). A better example would probably be novels, maybe something like the Dune franchise which had sequels co-written by Frank Herbert's son and another author. Even in american comics like Batman, it's pretty rare for the entire series to make a huge and sudden shift and change a lot of canon at the same time, it tends to happen in stages over time. For example Batman didn't suddenly shift from the 1960's Adam West to the 2000's Christian Bale version or the Michael Keaton version, it happened in the comics over many years (though the movies have all taken liberties in regards to the comics, especially with cannon, the tone of them is generally in line with the comics).

BTW: The Joker in the comic books was a schizophrenic psychopath taking pleasure from making crimes and pissing off Batman. Heath Ledger showed it in much better way than Jack Nicholson did in the previous Batmans. The Joker by Jack was just Jack Nicholson in makeup, Heath was playing an actual psychopathic criminal.

Yeah well that's because Nicholson just phoned in the role. Ledger and Hamil have done the best two portrayals of the modern Joker by a long shot.

 

[Yazman]

It was said by Bethesda IIRC, that Tactics is non-canon. Later it was altered by Fo3 in that canonicity was extended to the presence of a rogue BoS detachment around Chicago, but that's about it.

FOT's design doesn't fit in with the aesthetic of the Fallout series, so it's not canonical, it's that simple.

Unless you're stupid, but that's not my problem.

Can you please stop insulting people unprovoked? Disagreeing with you, or saying something you do not agree with, doesn't really count as provocation. It's hard to have a serious discussion with you inserting insults wherever you can.. it brings the level of the thread waaaay down.

 

[Holocausto]

I hate how Power Armor lost what made it so special.

The fact that I am no longer a walking tank, destroyer of scum, killer of many and saver of few that has bullets ping of me is a big let down.

So far the only solution is to put the game on Easy to get that "HAR HAR RAIDER SCUM YOUR PUNY GUNS CAN'T HARM ME FOR I AM IN MIGHTY POWER ARMOR NOW DIE!!!" feeling.

Yar...I made ye a mod : http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49059


(why am I talking like a pirate?.....ooh probably cause I'm high on beer!! lol hey I gotta laugh sometime).

 

[The Guardian]

Can you please stop insulting people unprovoked? Disagreeing with you, or saying something you do not agree with, doesn't really count as provocation. It's hard to have a serious discussion with you inserting insults wherever you can.. it brings the level of the thread waaaay down.

People who praise the inanities of Fallout 3 without provocation bring the level of this forum "waaaay" down *with added a's for effect*.

Personally, the design of FoT powered armor (as I prefer to think only of "T-51b" as "power armor") is far superior to the tactically useless and unpractical powered armor designs presented by Bethsoft.

Even T-51bethesda is crap compared to the original, the game looks like it's being played with a big head cheat on when wearing it. The programmers needed a whole new model for powered armored units, and not skimp by adding additional models to the base model like normal armors, Interplay didn't in Fallout 1 and 2, Tactics and Van Buren, so why does Bethesda get away with doing it in Fallout "3"?

 

[Yamu]

It was said by Bethesda IIRC, that Tactics is non-canon. Later it was altered by Fo3 in that canonicity was extended to the presence of a rogue BoS detachment around Chicago, but that's about it.

FOT's design doesn't fit in with the aesthetic of the Fallout series, so it's not canonical, it's that simple.

Unless you're stupid, but that's not my problem.

Can you please stop insulting people unprovoked? Disagreeing with you, or saying something you do not agree with, doesn't really count as provocation. It's hard to have a serious discussion with you inserting insults wherever you can.. it brings the level of the thread waaaay down.

Midwestern BoS design is not canonical.

Says who? Someone with no power over what is canon!

big brother was calling him out without having done his homework on the issue at hand. Calling him out rather tactlessly, I might add. Not sure I'd call his response "unprovoked."

To keep things on topic: power armor in F3 was a joke on every conceivable level. It should NOT be that easy to come by, it should NOT be that inexpensive, it should NOT be so easy to penetrate, and once the wearer is dead, the suit should, logically speaking, have sustained enough damage to be utterly useless. I do believe that this is the first "Fallout" game in which looting a power-armored corpse nets you the armor.

From a design standpoint, I remember seeing the Brotherhood PA for the first time when the F3 trailer went public and praying to God that it was some kind of wasteland wannabe junktech. Power Armor, perhaps above all else in the game, DEMANDS a retro aesthetic-- shiny, bulky, smooth, and solid.

I don't understand why they felt that game balance demanded they nerf it so horrendously-- combat it already a cakewalk anyway. For some odd reason, PA seems to be one of the only places they decided NOT to apply the Rule of Cool.

 

[Crni Vuk]

the Issue is just that Bethesdas Games at least since Oblivion usualy range in the rules of :
What Do You Mean, It's Not Awesome?: When the Rule of Cool fails to be cool enough.