When did XP come to this

J

Jefferson

First time out of the vault
After the release of Fallout 3 (and sadly NV also), I still can't wrap my head around the new XP system. I just started a new character in FO4, and was promptly reminded that killing a bloatfly and killing a super mutant (or founding a marked location on the map) gives me roughly the same amount of XP. The nonsensical first deathclaw rewards you with what, 30'ish XP? I remember when killing a deathclaw in the first two titles rewarded you with 1000 XP.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that killing an enemy in FO3/NV/4 should reward you instantly with something like 5 levels. I'm just saying that the lore has been watered down, where the mythical and immensely dangerous deathclaw has been downgraded to a level that compares with a bunch of bloatflies and mole rats.
 
If you just started, you will soon notice that when it rains deathclaws and bloatflies and raiders and mutants non stop, those 30-ish XP will also rain down on you.
Expected Level before you run out of activities in
FO1: 15-20
FO2: 20-35
FO3: [capped at 20, raised to 30]
FONV: [capped at 30, raised to 50]
FO4: between 50 and 100 (most likely because of the perk-system)

And you're right, it doesn't matter what you shoot, but how much you shoot. I think you're meant to just enjoy the banging of it, "bang bang bang!!!" like the children they expect their target-audience to be.
 
Yeah, about that how much you shoot. I guess people remember that the deathclaws in FO1/2 could still properly f you in the a even though you were armed with a upper tier gun and power armor. You still had to plan the assault beforehand and even then, it didn't always go as you expected. Now it's like "oh a Legendary Glowing Deathclaw" and all you have to do is crouch, charge your gauss rifle and bam, it's dead. And they're not even a threat when they get close to you, just back up and keep shooting.
 
Critical in the eyes was probably the only way I killed her. If the game rolled a miss or not enough damage, she would close the gap between her and the stairs in a second and just rip me to shreds.
 
Yeah the eyes was my go to aim spot since trying to cripple the legs would be pointless. Took me a couple deaths until I was able to finally kill her. In Fallout 4 I was at the Glowing Sea fighting a Glowing Legendary Deathclaw and killed it with a couple shots like it was nothing while its piss poor pathfinding got it stuck into a rocky surface.
 
The FO1 mother deathclaw always gave me an immmmense ammount of shit, no matter how prepared I thought I was for the fight

I would have 2 save-slots untill that moment, and then have like 6 save-slots by the end
Last time I took her on, I litterally used ALL my ammo, all my stimpacs, I was "almost dead", and won purely because of a lucky critical hit.

I think such tension simply don't translate well to a 3D first person shooter scenario, where it would be too fast and too stressy to be enjoyable
 
Ah those lucky combat criticals are a lifesaver when you need them, unless you don't get one in a sticky situation in which case you're screwed. I got a lucky critical to the eyes after losing almost all my health even in power armor then after the fight proceeded to save in all 10 slots. :P
 
I'm a huge fan of FP(S) games like Doom, Quake, Deus Ex 1, System Shock 2, Vampire the Masquerade &c, and I still can't figure out why the experience translates so poorly on some titles. I think the most tension I've got in a while was when doing a sneak character in FONV, and then it completely broke when the enemies were bumping to me. Just like a Skyrim guard saying "well nothing here now" when all of his comrades are dead on the floor. I think from the games I just listed, SS2 got on me on the edge the most, great title.
 
Yeah I had that problem with the Nightkin in the basement of the Repconn headquarters when I was going for the peaceful solution and one of the invisible Nightkin bumped into me and didn't realize I was there. I easily had that problem with Skyrim and as a bonus, the guard I shot in the eyes said "It must be my imagination". I do enjoy FPS games like Deus Ex myself, speaking of that I need to check out that GMDX mod.
 
Jefferson said:
I'm a huge fan of FP(S) games like Doom, Quake, Deus Ex 1, System Shock 2, Vampire the Masquerade &c, and I still can't figure out why the experience translates so poorly on some titles. I think the most tension I've got in a while was when doing a sneak character in FONV, and then it completely broke when the enemies were bumping to me. Just like a Skyrim guard saying "well nothing here now" when all of his comrades are dead on the floor. I think from the games I just listed, SS2 got on me on the edge the most, great title.
Click to expand...

I believe Vtm:Bloodlines had a very good way of giving XP. This game only rewarded results, not how you got them. Exp per kill always proves to be problematic in a RPG.
 
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To answer the OP question: XP came to this with the first Borderlands. That pretty much started a downhill cascade of mediocrity that now defines the term RPG.

Now RPGs have nothing to do with role-playing and more to do with XP, lewtz, and boring upgrade systems. The only upside to this is that now any marginally acceptable game will be viewed as high art in comparison.
 
Theinnerfish said:
Jefferson said:
I'm a huge fan of FP(S) games like Doom, Quake, Deus Ex 1, System Shock 2, Vampire the Masquerade &c, and I still can't figure out why the experience translates so poorly on some titles. I think the most tension I've got in a while was when doing a sneak character in FONV, and then it completely broke when the enemies were bumping to me. Just like a Skyrim guard saying "well nothing here now" when all of his comrades are dead on the floor. I think from the games I just listed, SS2 got on me on the edge the most, great title.
Click to expand...

I believe Vtm:Bloodlines had a very good way of giving XP. This game only rewarded results, not how you got them. Exp per kill always proves to be problematic in a RPG.
Click to expand...

I think the approach in Deus Ex 1 was also pretty good, considering the shooter aspect of the game, as you got absolutely no experience for killing and/or disabling enemies and robots. You got experience solely for solving tasks.

But, of course that is not a system build on instant gratification ...
 
Crni Vuk said:
Theinnerfish said:
Jefferson said:
I'm a huge fan of FP(S) games like Doom, Quake, Deus Ex 1, System Shock 2, Vampire the Masquerade &c, and I still can't figure out why the experience translates so poorly on some titles. I think the most tension I've got in a while was when doing a sneak character in FONV, and then it completely broke when the enemies were bumping to me. Just like a Skyrim guard saying "well nothing here now" when all of his comrades are dead on the floor. I think from the games I just listed, SS2 got on me on the edge the most, great title.
Click to expand...

I believe Vtm:Bloodlines had a very good way of giving XP. This game only rewarded results, not how you got them. Exp per kill always proves to be problematic in a RPG.
Click to expand...

I think the approach in Deus Ex 1 was also pretty good, considering the shooter aspect of the game, as you got absolutely no experience for killing and/or disabling enemies and robots. You got experience solely for solving tasks.

But, of course that is not a system build on instant gratification ...
Click to expand...
Many people consider Deus Ex to be more RPG than FPS as well. Fallout should have taken notes from the Deus Ex series rather than Borderlands in my humble opinion.
 
Theinnerfish said:
Jefferson said:
I'm a huge fan of FP(S) games like Doom, Quake, Deus Ex 1, System Shock 2, Vampire the Masquerade &c, and I still can't figure out why the experience translates so poorly on some titles. I think the most tension I've got in a while was when doing a sneak character in FONV, and then it completely broke when the enemies were bumping to me. Just like a Skyrim guard saying "well nothing here now" when all of his comrades are dead on the floor. I think from the games I just listed, SS2 got on me on the edge the most, great title.
Click to expand...

I believe Vtm:Bloodlines had a very good way of giving XP. This game only rewarded results, not how you got them. Exp per kill always proves to be problematic in a RPG.
Click to expand...

I've noticed a few more games recently trending towards this direction. Pillars of Eternity, while obviously deeply flawed as a whole, only rewards XP for the first few kills on any given creature, and none on "people," to discourage grinding in favour of quest completion and the like.
 
I liked it the way it was in Gothic 1 and 2, killing monsters gave you very little exp, but quests more than made it up for you. I think it's supposed to discourage grinding exp on monsters and encourage questing.
But I agree, that there being little difference in exp between killing a bloatfly and a deathclaw is extremely bad.
 
Heh, but everyone was grinding XP on monsters in Gothic 1 and 2. There are full walkthroughs about what to kill when to gain the maximum amount of XP for leveling up your skills. :> And this usually gets repeated per chapter, as all monsters respawn then.
 
Yea, you sure can, but it was made in a way that would be tedious and rather boring, don't you think? The emphasis is clearly on doing quests.
It's the same with potions that raise your stats, you can use them when you get them, or you can save them for later so that you get more bang for your buck with the attribute points.
 
Crni Vuk said:
I think the approach in Deus Ex 1 was also pretty good, considering the shooter aspect of the game, as you got absolutely no experience for killing and/or disabling enemies and robots. You got experience solely for solving tasks.

But, of course that is not a system build on instant gratification ...
Click to expand...

Deus Ex has a good way too but if i remember correctly it was somehow required you to be a stealthy hack addict during first half of the game and you were becoming a T-1000 in the progress.

Vtm:Bloodlines on the other hand was allowed to solve first few quests with any style you want. However as the game progressed, a play style you didn't invest your EXP points was becoming more and more impossible.

Still Deus Ex's system good in a way it openly wanted you to be smart about character build and was teaching you that you have many other ways to solve problems without violance.

Aaron Burr said:
I've noticed a few more games recently trending towards this direction. Pillars of Eternity, while obviously deeply flawed as a whole, only rewards XP for the first few kills on any given creature, and none on "people," to discourage grinding in favour of quest completion and the like.
Click to expand...

PoE had a very smart system. Killing a Dragon earns you experince but killing your 100th Dragon earns you nothing because you know everything you need to know about kiliing Dragons anyway.
 
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