Where is the geographical location of the Sierra Madre Casino?

[Señor Wally]

Just now finding this thread and it's the first time I've EVER seen Emil compared favorably to Avallone. What the hell. I don't agree with every artistic decision Avallone ever makes, but motherfucking EMIL??? Emil Pagliarulo? THAT Emil?

 

[JustAShcookius]

The Divide specifically blocks the NCR from going north along 127 to "get around the mountains;" straight from Joshua. Thus, it can not be Pahrump as it is not along 127.

Big MT is south of the Divide. This is established by both the particulars of Ulysses' journey and by terminals at Big MT. Possibly to the southeast but at least somewhere south of (and nearby to) The Divide.

Death Valley is specifically identified as a separate area from both The Divide and Big MT; Joshua once more

All 3 (Death Valley, The Divide, and Big MT) are all impediments to the NCR reaching New Vegas from a more northernly angle then they currently do (via 15 or 95).

Sierra Madre is likely due east near the Grand Canyon but admittedly there is nothing concrete to confirm that.

Crescent Canyon prevents access from the South. It cuts off a bridge and railroad line into the Mojave. It is a hard barrier at the edge of the map, no going around that. There is not need or reason for the Big Empty to protect the South.

If Big Empty were in the South, NCR would be guaranteed to know of it's existance. Ranger Whatshisface says that there were attempted settlements as far south as Baja California if that gives a scope as to the current size of NCR.

The Pacific Northwest is wild and unknown even by Fallout standards. Therefore by that reasoning alone it stands that Big Empty is to the north and west since it has mostly evaded discovery except for the occasional drifter. The toughness of the Lobotomites lends credence to my newly thought of theory that the land around Big Empty is seldom trodden except by "badasses" such as Christine, Ulysses and the Courier.

The South is almost certainly occupied by someone, while we know for certain the North really isnt. I choose the North.

 

[Fogom]

Crescent Canyon prevents access from the South. It cuts off a bridge and railroad line into the Mojave. It is a hard barrier at the edge of the map, no going around that. There is not need or reason for the Big Empty to protect the South.

I said Big MT is south of the Divide, not south of New Vegas/the play area. To repeat what I said before: "Big MT is south of the Divide. This is established by both the particulars of Ulysses' journey and by terminals at Big MT. Possibly to the southeast but at least somewhere south of (and nearby to) The Divide." If you have something that disputes or clarifies on that, I'd love to see it.

If Big Empty were in the South, NCR would be guaranteed to know of it's existance. Ranger Whatshisface says that there were attempted settlements as far south as Baja California if that gives a scope as to the current size of NCR.

I;m just going to ignore this bit as I am under the conception that you just misunderstood my original post and are arguing against a point I didn't intend to make. If there really is something in there you wanted me to address than let me know and I'll try.

The Pacific Northwest is wild and unknown even by Fallout standards. Therefore by that reasoning alone it stands that Big Empty is to the north and west since it has mostly evaded discovery except for the occasional drifter. The toughness of the Lobotomites lends credence to my newly thought of theory that the land around Big Empty is seldom trodden except by "badasses" such as Christine, Ulysses and the Courier.

This is interesting suppositioning perhaps, but again, we have in-game, deliberate indications that BIG MT lies south of The Divide. If you want to make a case that The Divide is also in the PNW, then I'd be curious to hear your claims on how that can be.

The South is almost certainly occupied by someone, while we know for certain the North really isnt. I choose the North.

What makes you say this?

 

[Hardboiled Android]

It's never said that Hopeville/Ashton conurbation is on route 127, merely that you have to go north along 127 to get there - and indeed, to reach Pahrump from I-15 and then get around the mountains, you do have to use 127.

Further, if Big MT is south of Hopeville and blocking travel along route 127... well then that sort of renders the whole point of Hopeville moot, you already can't get there.

 

[Fogom]

It's never said that Hopeville/Ashton conurbation is on route 127, merely that you have to go north along 127 to get there

I went ahead and got the direct lines from the game so we all are on the same page with it. When the PC asks "The Divide blocked all of [NCR's] northern land routes?" Joshua replies that "Not all of them, but they could not take 127 north to get around the mountains." So, if I understand your position correctly: From I-15 they traveled north along 127, cut north east along CA178/NV372 into Pahrump (Hopeville/Ashton), north once more along 160, and then east along 95 into Vegas. Is that correct? I tried my best to charitable interpret your take, I hope I did it justice.

If so, that works except for one thing. 160 does not run through that area in the Fallout universe. In game we see that rather than come out of the Vegas and cut through the southern Spring Mountains around Bonnie Springs as it does in real life, it instead curves south prior to that and loops through Goodsprings into I-15. Looking into the history of real world Pahrump and 160 (wikipedia browsing; I'm no expert) it looks like neither really existed until well into the 60s, well past the "divergence point," not that that is definitive, just noteworthy to me. So, and this is of course speculation now, with 160 not going through that valley (and seemingly no roads at all going there) I would imagine there is no notable population center there and thus not feasible as a possible Hopeville/Ashton site. Perhaps you don't agree with my assessment but is there anything about it that I am missing that you can think of?

Further, if Big MT is south of Hopeville and blocking travel along route 127... well then that sort of renders the whole point of Hopeville moot, you already can't get there.

I think I didn't make myself clear. Big MT, according to Joshua, blocks NCR's attempts to go north,i n a similar fashion that The Divide blocks the NCR from using 127; they are not both blocking 127. It may in fact be Big MT that is what prevents them going via the Pahrump valley, just as an example. Again, not actually advocating that, just throwing out possibilities.

And again, there is no "if" Big MT is south of Hopeville/Ashton. The game lays that out for us. We know it is south.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I went ahead and got the direct lines from the game so we all are on the same page with it. When the PC asks "The Divide blocked all of [NCR's] northern land routes?" Joshua replies that "Not all of them, but they could not take 127 north to get around the mountains." So, if I understand your position correctly: From I-15 they traveled north along 127, cut north east along CA178/NV372 into Pahrump (Hopeville/Ashton), north once more along 160, and then east along 95 into Vegas. Is that correct? I tried my best to charitable interpret your take, I hope I did it justice.

If so, that works except for one thing. 160 does not run through that area in the Fallout universe. In game we see that rather than come out of the Vegas and cut through the southern Spring Mountains around Bonnie Springs as it does in real life, it instead curves south prior to that and loops through Goodsprings into I-15. Looking into the history of real world Pahrump and 160 (wikipedia browsing; I'm no expert) it looks like neither really existed until well into the 60s, well past the "divergence point," not that that is definitive, just noteworthy to me. So, and this is of course speculation now, with 160 not going through that valley (and seemingly no roads at all going there) I would imagine there is no notable population center there and thus not feasible as a possible Hopeville/Ashton site. Perhaps you don't agree with my assessment but is there anything about it that I am missing that you can think of?

Yes, that is exactly my opinion.

While you do have a point that 160's route is clearly different, I categorically reject the concept that that means there would be no raod going through the Pahrump Valley at all. Even if there were never any city there, it simply makes sense to have a road cutting through off of 127 up the Pahrump Valley even if it's lightly inhabited in the Fallout universe, just as 127 exists despite the fact of how lightly inhabited that stretch is.

Moreover, as to your speculation that Pahrump may not even exist - that seems to me to be pretty self-evidently false, on the basis of this:

Now, this Graffiti is cut, but like a lot of cut content it seems instructive as to the intentions of the devs. So what does it tell us? Well one, pretty decisively, Pahrump DID exist. With this in hand, it seems pretty clear that there would be some kind of major route connecting it to the rest of the world - obviously not down to Bonnie Springs as in our timeline, but some kind, probably cutting off of 127 and going up to 95, and maybe even extending down so far as Mountain pass instead of connecting to Bonnie Springs, though that's purely speculative.

That it's named at all also seems to indicate that it was a place of some kind of significance, which makes it curious that it was not mentioned anywhere else in the game - maybe there was some kind of storyline relating to Pahrump totally unrelated to Lonesome Road (which would be odd in any case considering the proximity of Pahrump to any possible Hopeville-Ashton location). Further, the very fact that it was cut is interesting - it is, so far as I know, the sole piece of graffiti cut from the game. It seems to me like at some point in development someone, knowing that Hopeville-Ashton was primarily based around Pahrump put it in, and was either corrected or they settled upon the name of Hopeville at some point in development. If it is indeed a reference to Lonesome Road, it would make sense - when you think about it it is pretty bizarre that no mentions are made in the Mojave of the destruction of such a prosperous and important settlement beyond Johnson Nash's "I hope a storm from the Divide skins him alive" comment and the Canyon Wreckage graffiti.

this is of course speculative to some level, but it does seem pretty clear to me from this cut content that the primary identification of Hopeville-Ashton was indeed Pahrump. It's not really any less geographically viable than your Tecopa-Shoshone model, the only real point you have against it is that Route 160 is differently routed in the Las Vegas Valley, but the emre (probably) fact of Pahrump's existence indicates that there probably is a road splitting off from 127 to service Pahrump.

 

[Fogom]

I categorically reject the concept that that means there would be no raod going through the Pahrump Valley at all. Even if there were never any city there, it simply makes sense to have a road cutting through off of 127 up the Pahrump Valley even if it's lightly inhabited in the Fallout universe, just as 127 exists despite the fact of how lightly inhabited that stretch is.

To be clear, when talking about "roads" I am speaking about major, graded routes suitable for mass transportation/shipping and usually given an official designation by a governing body (State Route, Interstate, etc.). I'm going to assume you mean the same thing going forward unless you indicate otherwise. 127 exists because it was the service road (and eventual successor) to the old T&T railroad that ran through there and was a big deal in the early 1900s up till about WW2. In other words, there isn't a road there because of anything in that area, but rather what lies on opposite ends of it. Applying that same logic to the Pahrump Valley (sans built-up Pahrump) doesn't really work as nothing really is gained from bridging it. Additionally, if you are right about Pahrump being H/A, then we know its not "lightly populated" since we can clearly see at least localized urban centers constructed to service the military facilities.

Moreover, as to your speculation that Pahrump may not even exist - that seems to me to be pretty self-evidently false, on the basis of this:

You're right that this could be a big clue, but it just as easily could be a red herring. There is plenty of cut content that has no bearing on anything and was removed because it did not reflect "the developer's intentions." It could just as easily have been an asset made before large sections of the story/world had been hammered out and discarded once it was deemed incompatible. I'm not try to talk down to you but I don't know how much you know about game development: Its not unusual for basic assets to be worked on early before design is fully sure what it going to be needed, not even accounting for changes in direction that may occur past pre-production. And, let's be frank here, I don't think either one of us is going to claim that this is a piece with a lot of effort in it. It would not surprise me to find that this was done by a single artist working in a very short amount of time. It was likely not a difficult decision to cut it and, reflecting that, likely didn't have much thought behind its creation.

maybe there was some kind of storyline relating to Pahrump totally unrelated to Lonesome Road (which would be odd in any case considering the proximity of Pahrump to any possible Hopeville-Ashton location)...It seems to me like at some point in development someone, knowing that Hopeville-Ashton was primarily based around Pahrump put it in, and was either corrected or they settled upon the name of Hopeville at some point in development.

Couldn't this same logic be reversed to demonstrate that Pahrump is not H/A? Maybe there was initially some side quest referencing Pahrump but when someone who had more of the bigger picture caught wind of it, it got axed due to its physically proximity to H/A (Death Valley Junction being the "real" H/A just in this example). Doesn't that use the same approach and arrive at a very different conclusion? That's why I find this line of speculation so problematic on its own; its not hard to make anything fit if you work at it.

But, let's put everything I have presented above aside, let's say that for sure everything you have said is "the right of it" as Ulysses would say. Then it presents a very big logistical oversight yet unaccounted for. The Divide goes boom and it cuts the NCR off from using it as a supply line. So, why not just go around it by never leaving 127 and taking it up to 95 directly? That bypasses The Divide/H-A/Pahrump completely and still let's them enter New Vegas by the same route which they so desperately need. That adds like 10 miles to the trip (15 minutes by truck or 4 hours walking, approximately), which would not even be a concern in relation to the scale of things. If you are right about it's placement then the whole bit about it blocking supplies doesn't make any sense in the first place.

when you think about it it is pretty bizarre that no mentions are made in the Mojave of the destruction of such a prosperous and important settlement

I don't think its that bizarre for a couple of reasons. Firstly, its far enough away that its not something that most people are going to know about it. How many people know what's going on with Jacobstown? And its closer and probably more notable (Super Mutants are gonna eat us all!). Second, The Divide pre-nuking is full of potential from what Ulysses says, but I think its going a bit far to say its prosperous and its only importance is to NCR as a road to New Vegas and the Dam (which is as recent as it is abruptly ended); most people of the Mojave probably have no real cause to have dealings with and thus know about a small settlement on the other side of a mountain range. Remember, this is supposed to have been difficult land to live in with constant storms even prior to the Courier sabotaging it.

the only real point you have against it is that Route 160 is differently routed in the Las Vegas Valley, but the emre (probably) fact of Pahrump's existence indicates that there probably is a road splitting off from 127 to service Pahrump.

See the above bit about just going around The Divide/H-A/Pahrump.

this is of course speculative to some level, but it does seem pretty clear to me from this cut content that the primary identification of Hopeville-Ashton was indeed Pahrump...but the emre (probably) fact of Pahrump's existence

If you just want to definitively state that the cut content applies without any indications outside of your suppositions, then I think that that actually does more harm to your case than assists it. As it would show that Pahrump exists as a place outside of H/A and thus can't be "geographically viable" as its source.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

, if you are right about Pahrump being H/A, then we know its not "lightly populated" since we can clearly see at least localized urban centers constructed to service the military facilities.

I said 'even if' allowing for the possibility that H/A is not Pahrump.

You're right that this could be a big clue, but it just as easily could be a red herring. There is plenty of cut content that has no bearing on anything and was removed because it did not reflect "the developer's intentions." It could just as easily have been an asset made before large sections of the story/world had been hammered out and discarded once it was deemed incompatible. I'm not try to talk down to you but I don't know how much you know about game development: Its not unusual for basic assets to be worked on early before design is fully sure what it going to be needed, not even accounting for changes in direction that may occur past pre-production. And, let's be frank here, I don't think either one of us is going to claim that this is a piece with a lot of effort in it. It would not surprise me to find that this was done by a single artist working in a very short amount of time. It was likely not a difficult decision to cut it and, reflecting that, likely didn't have much thought behind its creation.

Yes, I'm very well aware of how cut content works, especially in the context of New Vegas.

The fact that this is the sole, so far as I can tell, piece of graffiti in the game to be cut is obviously notable and interesting on some level. If this were alongside a bunch of other cut grafitti I wouldn't be making much of it.

Couldn't this same logic be reversed to demonstrate that Pahrump is not H/A? Maybe there was initially some side quest referencing Pahrump but when someone who had more of the bigger picture caught wind of it, it got axed due to its physically proximity to H/A (Death Valley Junction being the "real" H/A just in this example). Doesn't that use the same approach and arrive at a very different conclusion? That's why I find this line of speculation so problematic on its own; its not hard to make anything fit if you work at it.

It could be, but if it was around so late in development that this grafitti remains as the only piece to be cut, it seems curious that absolutely no other trace of this quest remains - no floating triggers, no useless NPCs left over, nothing. Just a lone mention of 'avenging' a town. When taken in combination with the DLC grafitti, it's obviously interesting.

But, let's put everything I have presented above aside, let's say that for sure everything you have said is "the right of it" as Ulysses would say. Then it presents a very big logistical oversight yet unaccounted for. The Divide goes boom and it cuts the NCR off from using it as a supply line. So, why not just go around it by never leaving 127 and taking it up to 95 directly? That bypasses The Divide/H-A/Pahrump completely and still let's them enter New Vegas by the same route which they so desperately need. That adds like 10 miles to the trip (15 minutes by truck or 4 hours walking, approximately), which would not even be a concern in relation to the scale of things. If you are right about it's placement then the whole bit about it blocking supplies doesn't make any sense in the first place.

Very simple: H-A extends to the intersection of 160-95 intersection, blocking travel.

I don't think its that bizarre for a couple of reasons. Firstly, its far enough away that its not something that most people are going to know about it. How many people know what's going on with Jacobstown? And its closer and probably more notable (Super Mutants are gonna eat us all!). Second, The Divide pre-nuking is full of potential from what Ulysses says, but I think its going a bit far to say its prosperous and its only importance is to NCR as a road to New Vegas and the Dam (which is as recent as it is abruptly ended); most people of the Mojave probably have no real cause to have dealings with and thus know about a small settlement on the other side of a mountain range. Remember, this is supposed to have been difficult land to live in with constant storms even prior to the Courier sabotaging it.

Jacobstown is an isolated town of weirdoes up in the mountains with no bearing on anything, H-A is the second major artery of the NCR supply line, so important that there were massive numbers of NCR troopers there at the time of its destructions and even the Legion put in the effort to sneak in a tremendous number of guys. That level of conflict demonstrates the massive level of strategic importance beyond just being a nice little extra for NCR, and therefore it was absolutely prosperous. If you're the major supply point for a major military force, so much so that the other side has to invest an ungodly amount of resources into somehow sneaking an army of soldiers there, then yes you are prosperous. People in the Mojave know about and discuss the Mojave Outpost - and as a matter of fact, people do talk about Jacobstown, despite it having no economic relation to anyone whatsoever.

If you just want to definitively state that the cut content applies without any indications outside of your suppositions, then I think that that actually does more harm to your case than assists it. As it would show that Pahrump exists as a place outside of H/A and thus can't be "geographically viable" as its source.

I should have said "A Pahrump equivalent," obviously my point was that it was modelled more or less after Pahrump but they settled on a different name.

 

[Fogom]

I said 'even if' allowing for the possibility that H/A is not Pahrump.

You seem to have ignored the entire paragraph before that addressing your claim and instead replied only to an addendum at the end that was only placed there as clarification on a larger point. It was even marked as such with a preposition leading it, that you have left out for some reason. I take it you have no objections to the points that you bypassed then?

Yes, I'm very well aware of how cut content works, especially in the context of New Vegas.

Alright, didn't know and didn't want to appear to be talking down to you. Like I said, no offense meant.

The fact that this is the sole, so far as I can tell, piece of graffiti in the game to be cut is obviously notable and interesting on some level. If this were alongside a bunch of other cut grafitti I wouldn't be making much of it.

There is plenty of other graffiti in the files that is not used in the game. Even if there wasn't, nothing would point to its exclusion being as meaningful or as connected as you seem to feel it is. There is countless reasons why such a piece would not have been used. It need not be as you seem driven to proclaim and beyond that there isn't even a morsel to suggest that its perhaps likely as you proclaim either.

It could be, but if it was around so late in development that this grafitti remains as the only piece to be cut,

Are you saying it was produced late in development or that it stuck around till late in development? The latter is a misconception on how builds and assets are managed in most game developments (obviously, I have no unique insight as to how this particular game's development went; just going off of standard practices). And if its the former then I'd ask you to source the claim. And once more, for good measure: "There is plenty of other graffiti in the files that is not used in the game."

it seems curious that absolutely no other trace of this quest remains - no floating triggers, no useless NPCs left over, nothing. Just a lone mention of 'avenging' a town. When taken in combination with the DLC grafitti, it's obviously interesting.

I mean, certainly its "interesting" and "notable." Hell, I'd even go so far as to say it sparks the imagination. But that's where it ends. The very fact that there is absolutely nothing else pointing to, referencing, or utilizing indicates of just how little importance it is. It should demonstrate to you via its token implementation (limited to an entry in an art database) that token forethought went into its production and implication. To quote myself from earlier: "It was likely not a difficult decision to cut it and, reflecting that, likely didn't have much thought behind its creation."

Very simple: H-A extends to the intersection of 160-95 intersection, blocking travel.

Absurd. I'll assume that you just haven't taken the time to actually look at the layout seriously of what you are suggesting. This would easily make it larger the the Greater Las Vegas metro area is. Even then, that would only have the furthest edge grazing 95, at which point I'm sure NCR would be happy to go off-road for a quarter mile if that's all it took to go around. So, what you are actually talking about is a metro area that rivals or even surpasses the size of the largest ones today. Its preposterous to try and propose it could be that massive. So, that brings us right back to going an extra 10 miles to circumvent a Pahrump H/A.

Jacobstown is an isolated town of weirdoes up in the mountains with no bearing on anything, H-A is the second major artery of the NCR supply line, so important that there were massive numbers of NCR troopers there at the time of its destructions and even the Legion put in the effort to sneak in a tremendous number of guys. That level of conflict demonstrates the massive level of strategic importance beyond just being a nice little extra for NCR, and therefore it was absolutely prosperous. If you're the major supply point for a major military force, so much so that the other side has to invest an ungodly amount of resources into somehow sneaking an army of soldiers there, then yes you are prosperous.

There is a lot of presumptions made here and I'm not seeing much to back it up outside of you wanting it to be so. Moreover, I think you've lost track of what it is you are trying to affirm. You're the one that asserted that its odd no one would mention such a prosperous/important city (much less its destruction); that very fact should clue you in that perhaps its not as you would assume. As I laid out for you before, no one (native) to the Mojave gives a shit about The Divide. The only people who cared were Ulysses, The Courier (maybe), NCR logistical planners back west, and the generals of the NCR at the Dam. Ulysses tells us how hard it was to live there and how they struggled but managed to garner stability by the actions of the Courier. Recall that he calls it "a nation taking its first breath;" this is Shady Sands circa Fallout 1. Full of potential but still pretty podunk and barely on any map. However, everything you said about the NCR running a supply line through there bringing them prosperity is completely true... with time. They didn't get the chance though. We are talking about at max like 2 years from NCR discovering them until the Courier brought the package. You don't go from backwater to metroplex in that time, much less in the harsh conditions of a post-atomic wasteland.

and as a matter of fact, people do talk about Jacobstown, despite it having no economic relation to anyone whatsoever.

Who? Did I miss something? Only person outside of Black Mountain I can think of is Farkas and only then due to her connection with Dr. Henry. Cass despite being a well-traveled caravan master in the region seems to be amazed by its existence when brought there. None of the BoS (including Veronica) mention it despite having a history with SMs and a desire to secure technology (like all those StealthBoys); only SMs they mention is Black Mountain. Boone and Gannon also seem oblivious to it. If there is something I am not recalling, please feel free to chime in.


Finally, its apparent to me that you "have your heart set" on H/A being Pahrump. And that's fine, I'm not here to try and take that away from you. I am however interested in discussing what we do know for certain and applying that to best fit possibility(-ies). So, before you reply, please do keep that in mind. I have no interest in going back and forth endlessly on any room-for-doubt meaning its conceivable something could point to Pahrump which means it must point to Pahrump. That'd just be fruitless, for both of us.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Just to clarify, what's the concrete source on Big MT being south of the Divide? I recall Ulysses saying he was able to track the wind patterns but I don't remember a direction being mentioned.

I'm not challenging you, I legitimately don't recall.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

You seem to have ignored the entire paragraph before that addressing your claim and instead replied only to an addendum at the end that was only placed there as clarification on a larger point. It was even marked as such with a preposition leading it, that you have left out for some reason. I take it you have no objections to the points that you bypassed then?

No, I just don't think it's particuarly relevant: even without the connection to Bonne Springs, it seems natural that a satellite community would exist, since Pahrump began to grow before the highway connection so it's not as though it's absolutely relevant. The only reason you're making these suppositions is because if Pahrump or equivalent did exist, it would make your DVJ identification totally unviable

There is plenty of other graffiti in the files that is not used in the game. Even if there wasn't, nothing would point to its exclusion being as meaningful or as connected as you seem to feel it is. There is countless reasons why such a piece would not have been used. It need not be as you seem driven to proclaim and beyond that there isn't even a morsel to suggest that its perhaps likely as you proclaim either.

Firstly, I'm not sure that that's the case - it's the only one listed on the NV grafitti page at least, but you may be right.

But in any case I feel you're being somewhat disingenuous here - even if Pahrump is not meant to be the rough location of H-A, the most reasonable supposition is that it was cut because it would be too close to the events of LR. Yes we can tell a thousand other stories about what went on, but off the only two facts we have (1) we have a piece of grafitti referencing Pahrump 2) Pahrump is very close to any viable identification of H-A) it is absolutely the most reasonable supposition that the cutting of one had something to do with the other.

Are you saying it was produced late in development or that it stuck around till late in development? The latter is a misconception on how builds and assets are managed in most game developments (obviously, I have no unique insight as to how this particular game's development went; just going off of standard practices). And if its the former then I'd ask you to source the claim. And once more, for good measure: "There is plenty of other graffiti in the files that is not used in the game."

I mean it 'stuck around late in development' insofar as this wasn't just some concept that was raised early on development like Sandy Valley or Devil's Butte or something when they were first putting pen to paper, but it was around at a somewhat mature stage of development.

I mean, certainly its "interesting" and "notable." Hell, I'd even go so far as to say it sparks the imagination. But that's where it ends. The very fact that there is absolutely nothing else pointing to, referencing, or utilizing indicates of just how little importance it is. It should demonstrate to you via its token implementation (limited to an entry in an art database) that token forethought went into its production and implication. To quote myself from earlier: "It was likely not a difficult decision to cut it and, reflecting that, likely didn't have much thought behind its creation."

I mean in that case, it would have been a pretty bizarre decision by some asset artist to create a nebulous and foreboding reference to an event which seems at least mildly significant, and so far as I can tell there isn't a single other grafitti asset that's comparable, referencing something significant that is otherwise totally unaddressed in the game. The only comparably cryptic grafitti are... the DLC grafitti, which did indeed reference things otherwise unreferenced.

Now it's certainly possible that some artist went off the reservation and spun an elaborate story about something happening around Pahrump, and Sawyer had to get this rogue element under control... but this does not seem to me to be the most likely supposition.

Absurd.

I'll assume that you just haven't taken the time to actually look at the layout seriously of what you are suggesting. This would easily make it larger the the Greater Las Vegas metro area is. Even then, that would only have the furthest edge grazing 95, at which point I'm sure NCR would be happy to go off-road for a quarter mile if that's all it took to go around. So, what you are actually talking about is a metro area that rivals or even surpasses the size of the largest ones today. Its preposterous to try and propose it could be that massive. So, that brings us right back to going an extra 10 miles to circumvent a Pahrump H/A.

As a matter of fact I did. The 'metropolitan area' of Pahrump today is already massive, about on par if not larger than the LVMA. If you add in massive population growth to make it a genuine city of skyscrapers by 2077, albeit a modestly sized city, and more importantly a second town that is even half of its territory (IE Crystal), then yes it more then makes up the difference. Of course this whole stretech isn't densely populated throughout, but this would be the extent of the weather modification tech and the nuclear silos.

There is a lot of presumptions made here and I'm not seeing much to back it up outside of you wanting it to be so. Moreover, I think you've lost track of what it is you are trying to affirm. You're the one that asserted that its odd no one would mention such a prosperous/important city (much less its destruction); that very fact should clue you in that perhaps its not as you would assume. As I laid out for you before, no one (native) to the Mojave gives a shit about The Divide. The only people who cared were Ulysses, The Courier (maybe), NCR logistical planners back west, and the generals of the NCR at the Dam. Ulysses tells us how hard it was to live there and how they struggled but managed to garner stability by the actions of the Courier. Recall that he calls it "a nation taking its first breath;" this is Shady Sands circa Fallout 1. Full of potential but still pretty podunk and barely on any map. However, everything you said about the NCR running a supply line through there bringing them prosperity is completely true... with time. They didn't get the chance though. We are talking about at max like 2 years from NCR discovering them until the Courier brought the package. You don't go from backwater to metroplex in that time, much less in the harsh conditions of a post-atomic wasteland.

It wasn't a metroplex - but it was almost certainly on par with at least say Nipton (which it's worth noting had its importance massively inflated by the Deathclaw problem re-routing military and caravan traffic.) and considering the degree of NCR military investment probably larger. And the Divide's destruction was so spectacular, the aftermath horriffic, that it would absolutely bear remarking - heck, they certainly would have felt the tectonic vibrations from Vegas, and possibly even seen the mushroom clouds.

Who? Did I miss something? Only person outside of Black Mountain I can think of is Farkas and only then due to her connection with Dr. Henry. Cass despite being a well-traveled caravan master in the region seems to be amazed by its existence when brought there. None of the BoS (including Veronica) mention it despite having a history with SMs and a desire to secure technology (like all those StealthBoys); only SMs they mention is Black Mountain. Boone and Gannon also seem oblivious to it. If there is something I am not recalling, please feel free to chime in.

Julie as you say, and importantly, Mr. New Vegas. It's known to some extent, and you must grant that it is far less significant than the Divde would have been.

Finally, its apparent to me that you "have your heart set" on H/A being Pahrump. And that's fine, I'm not here to try and take that away from you. I am however interested in discussing what we do know for certain and applying that to best fit possibility(-ies). So, before you reply, please do keep that in mind. I have no interest in going back and forth endlessly on any room-for-doubt meaning its conceivable something could point to Pahrump which means it must point to Pahrump. That'd just be fruitless, for both of us.

It's possible the fact that I am (so far as I can tell) the first person to make this connection clouds my judgement, but I don't think so. It's a perfectly geographically viable identification, the advantages of DVJ are marginal at best. Now of course I can't make the statement that Pahrump is absolutely H-A, but the fact that Pahrump is 1) fairly geographically viable and 2) actually has some level of support from this graffito, for me, puts it over the top. You don't have to accept my identification, but you likewise shouldn't be overstating your case to the degree that you are.

 

[Fogom]

it seems natural

the most reasonable supposition

it is absolutely the most reasonable supposition

but it was around at a somewhat mature stage of development.

but this does not seem to me to be the most likely supposition.

but it was almost certainly

It's a perfectly geographically viable

Claims supported by nothing but feelings, not even including the ones that aren't so directly stated. We are done here for now. You decide you want to actually make a good faith effort at some point then I'll take the time to go back through and address the other concerns. Have a nice day.

"Finally, its apparent to me that you "have your heart set" on H/A being Pahrump. And that's fine, I'm not here to try and take that away from you. I am however interested in discussing what we do know for certain and applying that to best fit possibility(-ies). So, before you reply, please do keep that in mind. I have no interest in going back and forth endlessly on any room-for-doubt meaning its conceivable something could point to Pahrump which means it must point to Pahrump. That'd just be fruitless, for both of us."

Just to clarify, what's the concrete source on Big MT being south of the Divide? I recall Ulysses saying he was able to track the wind patterns but I don't remember a direction being mentioned.

I'm not challenging you, I legitimately don't recall.

That's fine, I don't mind going over it. I just didn't want to be writing articles longer than I already was without need.

You got part of it right off the bat there. We know that Ulysses left The Divide tracking the weather patterns back to the source from one of his audio logs. From another audio log of his he describes him first reaching Big MT and specifically identifies that the section closest to him upon arrival was the Y-17 Weather Station (also the source of The Divide's storms) which is along the NNW edge; so, that means The Divide is roughly in that direction.

Now, that's fairly decent evidence but if its not enough there is even more. There is a text log on a terminal in one of the outlying facilities of Big MT. In it a prewar tech/scientist explicitly identifies Hopeville/Ashton as being to the north. Now, admittedly, I don't recall exactly which location this is in so I can't send you to confirm it for yourself. If you'd really like to know which just let me know and I'll take the time to track it down when I am free later today and point you in the right direction.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Claims supported by nothing but feelings, not even including the ones that aren't so directly stated. We are done here for now. You decide you want to actually make a good faith effort at some point then I'll take the time to go back through and address the other concerns. Have a nice day.

"Finally, its apparent to me that you "have your heart set" on H/A being Pahrump. And that's fine, I'm not here to try and take that away from you. I am however interested in discussing what we do know for certain and applying that to best fit possibility(-ies). So, before you reply, please do keep that in mind. I have no interest in going back and forth endlessly on any room-for-doubt meaning its conceivable something could point to Pahrump which means it must point to Pahrump. That'd just be fruitless, for both of us."



That's fine, I don't mind going over it. I just didn't want to be writing articles longer than I already was without need.

You got part of it right off the bat there. We know that Ulysses left The Divide tracking the weather patterns back to the source from one of his audio logs. From another audio log of his he describes him first reaching Big MT and specifically identifies that the section closest to him upon arrival was the Y-17 Weather Station (also the source of The Divide's storms) which is along the NNW edge; so, that means The Divide is roughly in that direction.

Now, that's fairly decent evidence but if its not enough there is even more. There is a text log on a terminal in one of the outlying facilities of Big MT. In it a prewar tech/scientist explicitly identifies Hopeville/Ashton as being to the north. Now, admittedly, I don't recall exactly which location this is in so I can't send you to confirm it for yourself. If you'd really like to know which just let me know and I'll take the time to track it down when I am free later today and point you in the right direction.

“Good faith effort” - pretty rich from you considering you’ve seemed pretty smug and condescending throughout this conversation.

The fact of the matter is we’re BOTH making suppositions, because we’re talking about the location of a fictional place in a video game when we’re never told where it is. The basis for your model is that you think saying “up along 127” must have meant along 127 the entire way, and incredulity at the zone of effect of a Pahrump H-A extending so far north. That’s it.

You may well be right, and it’s fine that you disagree with me. What is in my opinion less fine is you’re pretending that you make no supposition whatsoever, that you are driven by no ‘feeling’ or opinion. That’s just downright dishonest, and moreover you’ve done it in a fairly rude matter.

Again, it’s fine that you have a difference of opinion. But your approach to this conversation has been pretty dogshit.

(and the terminal you’re looking for is Y-0)

 

[Morgan_]

How dare you assert the location of Big MT in bad faith you grifting piece of shit, smarmy fuck. En garde you intellectual midget! Prepare for-mnadlkcjhewjfkabds;lcjbwe;iuckwebfciuwebck;jbweilcbwelk jbvflkwegfvjkwebkbdskl;jdhflkuhew.lf;aiubckjw2ebpioucbwecbilwebkljfbliduafkjwebiufcvwjcbiuwegfk;wejbf;klbwe;kgfwiufglkewjbfiuwegfkljwebcviuwebfkweugfpowfocvubwivbwbvffiurwbvrbviouwbvjdsbnvfpiourewggjwbrkjvbsdlkjbgfiouwebfkljdsbiuwbgjsdbnifuvwekljfbg9784gri324bf7832gfkjebf87webgkj3497bfejkbfiuwbfkjwebf74bfkjweb97fb3ufgehw93fb249gfkjwefh923fkljwehkfjbweiuvbwkfgbwieufbiwefgb74bfjkwebf879wbfuiwgfbweiufbwefiubwifubwifg2iwbefwbfiuwbfiwshfossdfbwpiufw.

 

[Atomic Postman]

I suppose the original speculated location of Big MT being closer to somewhere like Mt. Kingston is more correct than north near Area 51 I guess then. Interesting. It does make it odd that it never got more attention from NCR, but there's enough to explain that away.

I don't have much to say on the location of the Divide because the Pahrump/DVJ difference seems extremely marginal.

 

[Fogom]

(and the terminal you’re looking for is Y-0)

Oh, thanks. Hopefully Atomic Postman already saw this if he needed it.

<Screeching>

Go be mad somewhere else. Not interested.

How dare you assert the location of Big MT in bad faith you grifting piece of shit, smarmy fuck. En garde you intellectual midget! Prepare for-mnadlkcjhewjfkabds;lcjbwe;iuckwebfciuwebck;jbweilcbwelk jbvflkwegfvjkwebkbdskl;jdhflkuhew.lf;aiubckjw2ebpioucbwecbilwebkljfbliduafkjwebiufcvwjcbiuwegfk;wejbf;klbwe;kgfwiufglkewjbfiuwegfkljwebcviuwebfkweugfpowfocvubwivbwbvffiurwbvrbviouwbvjdsbnvfpiourewggjwbrkjvbsdlkjbgfiouwebfkljdsbiuwbgjsdbnifuvwekljfbg9784gri324bf7832gfkjebf87webgkj3497bfejkbfiuwbfkjwebf74bfkjweb97fb3ufgehw93fb249gfkjwefh923fkljwehkfjbweiuvbwkfgbwieufbiwefgb74bfjkwebf879wbfuiwgfbweiufbwefiubwifubwifg2iwbefwbfiuwbfiwshfossdfbwpiufw.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts. Appreciate the effort you put into the gibberish.

I suppose the original speculated location of Big MT being closer to somewhere like Mt. Kingston is more correct than north near Area 51 I guess then. Interesting. It does make it odd that it never got more attention from NCR, but there's enough to explain that away.

Yup. Kingston, somewhere along the Nopah Range, Mesquite Range, or even as far south as Clark Mountain perhaps. There's a lot of mountains in that area, but they are a bit less magnificent that most people think of when they imagine Big MT. As for the NCR not checking it out, it is admittedly a little troubling but I just chalk it up to they can see a large crater and they know no one comes back alive so they just assume a hellish missile impact site and write "here be dragons" on the map. Besides, we know plenty of people do in fact attempt to figure the place out due to all the lobotomites. If you really want to try to pin down the location more, then the piece of info that seems applicable but I never was able to figure anything out for is the rail lines. There are 3 of them coming into the compound: one each from the north, east, and west. If you do look into it, let me know your results.

I don't have much to say on the location of the Divide because the Pahrump/DVJ difference seems extremely marginal.

It is pretty marginal. Still could have been a pretty interesting discussion. Clearly it was not.

 

[Morgan_]

You came in here on your high horse over the finer details of the location of a place in a game from over a decade ago and getting pissy about it when people interact with you while trying to act like it is actually you who is annoyed.
Shut up bro.

 

[Fogom]

You came in here on your high horse

I did not such thing. I went out of my way to make sure I understood other's points before addressing them and took pains to own if I didn't communicate something well and it led to a misunderstanding.

over the finer details of the location of a place in a game from over a decade ago

It was a thread specifically about those details in regards to one location and had broadened to include all the DLC locations when I joined. On a forum intended for the discussion (in part) of that very game. That's literally the topic of the conversation in here, why wouldn't I be talking about those?

getting pissy about it when people interact with you while trying to act like it is actually you who is annoyed.
Shut up bro.

I think you've gotten the wrong idea. I'm not particularly upset, though perhaps a bit frustrated that I keep giving false impressions of my intent. Up till now you've been seemingly decently warm and I have no interest in quarreling with you. I ask you to take a step back and perhaps review what I've previously presented with a bit more charity or benefit of the doubt. Its not my desire to pick fights with you, or anyone.

 

[JustAShcookius]

What boggles me about this whole travel conundrum is why is it so hard to just find another road?

Klamath Falls is the closest major town to me (the same mentioned in the game). The Cascade Range to the west is EASILY traversable by foot and vehicle offroad. I have participated in many expeditions and hikes all around the county and have seen no reason why a primitive cart track could not be fabricated by NCR in the area. The range may be nothing to scoff at, but someone and their Jeep could just drive straight up and down the other side on a "red carpet" of pine needles. In my experience there is always another way, always another pass.

Besides, cars are not necessary for sustenance of nations in Fallout. A car worthy road wouldn't be necessary for the NCR but it would be NICE.

Now I say this because NCR for whatever reason HATES trailblazing. They almost always stick to prewar routes with a passion. I never understood why they cant just find another way around when shit happens.

NCR has trains, cars and a mechanized division. It wouldnt be hard for a nation like NCR to create another Long Fifteen out of scratch in time.

Parody Time:

"Oh noooooo theres a HOLE in the Long Fifteen caused by the Courier! Heaven forbide we take 4 miles out of the original stretch and fix it in 6 days!"

Except the Long Fifteen is canonically closed for some retarded reason ingame after that happens.

Also, Highway 95 appears perfectly open in the North. Heaven forbid we bypass Pahrump entirely in the West by a few miles and reconnect 95. There is totally not a bajillion networked roads west of Pahrump we could use!

The incompetancy of NCR at solving simple problems makes me wonder how they grew as big as they did.

 

[Fogom]

Alright, I'm gonna try and play devil's advocate here for the sake of "making lore make sense," but you bring up some valid points that I'd like to see the games have addressed.

The Cascade Range to the west is EASILY traversable by foot and vehicle offroad.

I'll being sort of addressing this as I go, but I think its important to notice you are seeing this from the framing of our modern highly developed and resource-heavy world.

The range may be nothing to scoff at, but someone and their Jeep could just drive straight up and down the other side on a "red carpet" of pine needles.

It seems to me that getting your offroad adapted jeep through there is a good bit more practical than getting a truck loaded down with supplies/troops, much less a whole convoy of them.

I never understood why they cant just find another way around when shit happens.

I think they do to a certain extent. I mean they originally seem to have taken 15 out. But it wasn't optimal so they opened up through The Divide. and then that closed down they went back full bore on 15 until that hit a snag and now they use 40 into 95.

They almost always stick to prewar routes with a passion.

To be fair, most of the "good" routes would already have been discovered and utilized in the old world and thus are almost certain to have prebuilt roads. From there it logically follows that there is a good chance that any sort of event that blocks these roads will also block (or at least be a costly impediment) other routes through these "passes." And, they do construct new transportation infrastructure. We know for certain they are (or were, till a prison break) expanding the rail lines into the Mojave in order to help their supply issues. Blasting news lines out of the rock and laying track is no small deed.

Besides, cars are not necessary for sustenance of nations in Fallout. A car worthy road wouldn't be necessary for the NCR but it would be NICE.

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Certainly we saw in the earlier games that pack animal caravans can sustain settlements (sometimes not very well, but just enough) and we can maybe even say a loose confederation of cities might work if the paths got worn-in enough (back to that whole thing about them not blazing trails). However, sustaining a nation is going to take more. Especially for one more organized how the NCR is (quasi liberal democracy) as opposed to a military autocracy like Caesar's boys.

NCR has trains, cars and a mechanized division.

What's the source on the mechanized division? Not that I'm doubting it as it seems entirely plausible. I just don't recall it ever being confirmed.

It wouldnt be hard for a nation like NCR to create another Long Fifteen out of scratch in time.

Like I mentioned before, they kind of already are with the railways.

"Oh noooooo theres a HOLE in the Long Fifteen caused by the Courier! Heaven forbide we take 4 miles out of the original stretch and fix it in 6 days!"

Is this supposed to be referencing if you nuke the NCR at the end of Lonesome Road? If so, I reckon the issue is not the hole but the hostility of the environment around the hole.

Also, Highway 95 appears perfectly open in the North. Heaven forbid we bypass Pahrump entirely in the West by a few miles and reconnect 95.

I'm not entirely sure what you are suggesting here. Is it they they can just go around Pahrump/The Divide by taking 127 all the way up to 95 and follow it around the north side into Vegas?

The incompetancy of NCR at solving simple problems makes me wonder how they grew as big as they did.

I'm sure part of it is so that the PC can show up and be a "big damn hero" and feel highly effective and part of it as well being the massive corruption we always hear about.

Finally, an important thing I want to point out is that a lot of what we see in New Vegas is an overreach by the NCR and we get told this repeatedly but I also often see people glossing over this (or maybe just forgetting). That doesn't just mean militarily. The Mojave Outpost is already a small outpost at the edge of their control, but they don't stop there. Instead they try and run a massive supply chain and war effort all the way on the other side of the state at the border of a very hostile nation throughout a region that is at best averse to them and at worst some of their historical bitter enemies (Khans). They seriously have over reached and have only held out due more to luck than to planning or skill. I think this is why the endeavor collapses so spectacularly if the Courier does anything other than fully support them; they weren't gonna hack it in the Mojave (for now) any other way. In contrast to this we hear about industrious and prosperous NCR proper is becoming (taken as an entity, obviously plenty of people on the lower rungs are missing out on that), so much so that they are concerned their population growth is outstripping their ability to supply food.

Now, just to loop back to the start: Some of the NCR's choices, or lack there of, are pretty boneheaded and hard to defend.