Where is the geographical location of the Sierra Madre Casino?

[JustAShcookius]

Alright, I'm gonna try and play devil's advocate here for the sake of "making lore make sense," but you bring up some valid points that I'd like to see the games have addressed.

I'll being sort of addressing this as I go, but I think its important to notice you are seeing this from the framing of our modern highly developed and resource-heavy world.

It seems to me that getting your offroad adapted jeep through there is a good bit more practical than getting a truck loaded down with supplies/troops, much less a whole convoy of them.

I think they do to a certain extent. I mean they originally seem to have taken 15 out. But it wasn't optimal so they opened up through The Divide. and then that closed down they went back full bore on 15 until that hit a snag and now they use 40 into 95.

To be fair, most of the "good" routes would already have been discovered and utilized in the old world and thus are almost certain to have prebuilt roads. From there it logically follows that there is a good chance that any sort of event that blocks these roads will also block (or at least be a costly impediment) other routes through these "passes." And, they do construct new transportation infrastructure. We know for certain they are (or were, till a prison break) expanding the rail lines into the Mojave in order to help their supply issues. Blasting news lines out of the rock and laying track is no small deed.

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Certainly we saw in the earlier games that pack animal caravans can sustain settlements (sometimes not very well, but just enough) and we can maybe even say a loose confederation of cities might work if the paths got worn-in enough (back to that whole thing about them not blazing trails). However, sustaining a nation is going to take more. Especially for one more organized how the NCR is (quasi liberal democracy) as opposed to a military autocracy like Caesar's boys.

What's the source on the mechanized division? Not that I'm doubting it as it seems entirely plausible. I just don't recall it ever being confirmed.

Like I mentioned before, they kind of already are with the railways.

Is this supposed to be referencing if you nuke the NCR at the end of Lonesome Road? If so, I reckon the issue is not the hole but the hostility of the environment around the hole.

I'm not entirely sure what you are suggesting here. Is it they they can just go around Pahrump/The Divide by taking 127 all the way up to 95 and follow it around the north side into Vegas?

I'm sure part of it is so that the PC can show up and be a "big damn hero" and feel highly effective and part of it as well being the massive corruption we always hear about.

Finally, an important thing I want to point out is that a lot of what we see in New Vegas is an overreach by the NCR and we get told this repeatedly but I also often see people glossing over this (or maybe just forgetting). That doesn't just mean militarily. The Mojave Outpost is already a small outpost at the edge of their control, but they don't stop there. Instead they try and run a massive supply chain and war effort all the way on the other side of the state at the border of a very hostile nation throughout a region that is at best averse to them and at worst some of their historical bitter enemies (Khans). They seriously have over reached and have only held out due more to luck than to planning or skill. I think this is why the endeavor collapses so spectacularly if the Courier does anything other than fully support them; they weren't gonna hack it in the Mojave (for now) any other way. In contrast to this we hear about industrious and prosperous NCR proper is becoming (taken as an entity, obviously plenty of people on the lower rungs are missing out on that), so much so that they are concerned their population growth is outstripping their ability to supply food.

Now, just to loop back to the start: Some of the NCR's choices, or lack there of, are pretty boneheaded and hard to defend.

Excellent points. I was somewhat hotheaded when I wrote that post so I apologize for some vague wording.

Yes, I concede that building a good route takes time, I just found it profoundly dumb that NCR takes sooooo much damn time in executing critical decisions and plans.

The Courier just trapped a huge amount of NCR citizens and forces in the Mojave by dropping a Divide nuke. Nukes in Fallout have been confirmed to be low yield and very dirty. Therefore it stands to reason that a few miles away from such a solitary blast is enough to be relatively safe by Fallout standards.

Back to the point: You would think that NCR would expend a little HASTE and RESOURCES into reconstructing a road into the Mojave due to the large investment trapped there. All I see is some caravans and soldiers at Mojave Outpost lounging around doing nothing when they should be digging for their [redacted] lives before Caeser sells their dead corpses for pig food.

I kinda wanted to see an animation of a platoon of soldiers digging frantically to find a way out hopelessly while General Oliver is ramming his head on his desk in fury. That alone would make a Legion playthrough satisfying.

Also, the MOTORISED (not mechanized) division canonically exists. Chris Allevone the big cheese himself wrote such somewhere in the Fallout Bible. I dont know exactly where he said it though.

 

[Fogom]

Yes, I concede that building a good route takes time, I just found it profoundly dumb that NCR takes sooooo much damn time in executing critical decisions and plans.

I don't know if it will help or not, but to put things into perspective: NCR didn't learn about the existence of the dam (or rather, its survival of The Great War) until 8 years prior to NV. Only 6 years since they actually got troops there to survey it and see if they could turn the damn thing on, ie that it was even worth dedicating serious resources towards. Meanwhile, they are already effectively fighting two wars in other areas. Alll things considered, they are actually going at a halfway decent clip, especially when you factor in bureaucratic inertia.

The Courier just trapped a huge amount of NCR citizens and forces in the Mojave by dropping a Divide nuke. Nukes in Fallout have been confirmed to be low yield and very dirty. Therefore it stands to reason that a few miles away from such a solitary blast is enough to be relatively safe by Fallout standards.

Why are they trapped? I mean, its certainly gonna complicate things and probably prevent NCR cementing any potential holds on the area, but they can probably hoof it back in one piece (mostly). In the short term though, weather patterns blowing all that fresh fallout around is gonna be a real pain.

Back to the point: You would think that NCR would expend a little HASTE and RESOURCES into reconstructing a road into the Mojave due to the large investment trapped there. All I see is some caravans and soldiers at Mojave Outpost lounging around doing nothing when they should be digging for their [redacted] lives before Caeser sells their dead corpses for pig food.

This is in reference to before LR? Yeah, there's that corruption and undersupply/manned element that comes up every time you interact with anyone from the NCR. They just don't have anything to spare to solidify their position and aren't receiving any more for a variety of reasons. You mention the Mojave Outpost, let's address that for a moment. They are very concerned about the Legion either staging an assault to seize the post or temporarily overwhelming it enough to slip some troops by and cause even more havoc along the western parts of 15, which are relatively safe. That means they can't send rotating details out to patrol the roads, for example, with out putting significant jeopardy into their position.

I kinda wanted to see an animation of a platoon of soldiers digging frantically to find a way out hopelessly while General Oliver is ramming his head on his desk in fury. That alone would make a Legion playthrough satisfying.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who wouldn't have liked the Legion to have received some more attention. That side of the story always feels a bit bare bones.

Also, the MOTORISED (not mechanized) division canonically exists. Chris Allevone the big cheese himself wrote such somewhere in the Fallout Bible. I dont know exactly where he said it though.

That's okay. That was enough for me to go on and track it down fairly quickly. And it actually was "mechanized," you had it right the first time. Here it is:

6. About how many working or servicable cars are there at the time of FO2? Obviously there must be more then one, since the guy in new reno has a garage fully staffed, and most likely has a large supply of parts( im assuming that was what the warehouse building next to the garage was filled up with, you couldnt pick up anything off of them) Probably not too many, but I don't know the exact number. The real problem isn't fuel, it's mostly tires and other degradable parts that have gone to the dogs in the past 100 years. For every two hundred or so people, there might be one working vehicle, and even "the local clunker" wouldn't be up to factory specs. NCR is rumored to have a mechanized vehicle division outside of its farming vehicles, but the number of vehicles in the division is unknown.

That said, not only has Bethesda said that the Bible is no longer strictly canon, MCA himself flatly stated that it should no longer be considered an accurate reference either. So, grain of salt.

 

[Risewild]

That said, not only has Bethesda said that the Bible is no longer strictly canon, MCA himself flatly stated that it should no longer be considered an accurate reference either. So, grain of salt

The Bible is canon unless contradicted by the new games.

Stuff that "makes sense" in the lore of the new games is considered canon (and some times even included in the new games), stuff that doesn't "make sense" in the lore of the new games is not considered canon.
For example, the way the GECK works in the Bible is not canon anymore, because GECKs work differently in Bethesda's games. But Vault 106 from the Bible is canon, because it was made into a real Vault in FO3 (following the description included in the Bible).

Chris said that now that Bethesda owns the rights, we shouldn't take the Bible as canon, but Bethesda does consider Fallout Bible canon (unless contradicted by newer games), since they mentions several stuff in their own games (and New Vegas) that were only mentioned in the Bible, Todd Howard said they went thought the Fallout Bible when making Fallout 3:

We also went through all the original source material, as well as the "Fallout Bible," put together by Chris Avellone, whose work is always fantastic.

And Emil Pagliarulo said he read the Fallout Bible several times and even slept with it under his pillow while writing Fallout 3:

Emil also said that they look at the Bible for it's lore, and then decide which of that lore should be canon when making a new game. If they think it "makes sense", then it's canon, if they think it will conflict with something they want to put in their new games, then that part is not canon.

For us, it's always... for us, canon always starts with what is in the games. And so... it's what is in Fallout 1, Fallout 2... even some of like, Fallout Tactics is- there's some stuff from canon from Fallout Tactics as well. And our Fallout games. So, we always look at what's in the games first, and then we go to the Fallout Bible and look at the stuff. So, some of the stuff that is in Fallout 3 that is now canon came from the Fallout Bible, some of that fiction. And so... it depends. We look at the Fallout Bible and some of the lore that really... was written, y'know, back in the day. It makes sense and we use that and put it in our games. We don't just assume that everything in the Bible is canon. We have to take it step-by-step inside. It's a judgement call.

Basically, the Bible is canon except for the parts of it that are contradicted by newer games. So, it's not all canon but most of it still is (since the newer games don't [yet] contradict most of it).

It's the old case of "these things are canon until we say they're not".

 

[Morgan_]

The Bible is canon unless contradicted by the new games.

Stuff that "makes sense" in the lore of the new games is considered canon (and some times even included in the new games), stuff that doesn't "make sense" in the lore of the new games is not considered canon.
For example, the way the GECK works in the Bible is not canon anymore, because GECKs work differently in Bethesda's games. But Vault 106 from the Bible is canon, because it was made into a real Vault in FO3 (following the description included in the Bible).

Chris said that now that Bethesda owns the rights, we shouldn't take the Bible as canon, but Bethesda does consider Fallout Bible canon (unless contradicted by newer games), since they mentions several stuff in their own games (and New Vegas) that were only mentioned in the Bible, Todd Howard said they went thought the Fallout Bible when making Fallout 3:

And Emil Pagliarulo said he read the Fallout Bible several times and even slept with it under his pillow while writing Fallout 3:

Emil also said that they look at the Bible for it's lore, and then decide which of that lore should be canon when making a new game. If they think it "makes sense", then it's canon, if they think it will conflict with something they want to put in their new games, then that part is not canon.

Basically, the Bible is canon except for the parts of it that are contradicted by newer games. So, it's not all canon but most of it still is (since the newer games don't [yet] contradict most of it).

It's the old case of "these things are canon until we say they're not".

Is this an old screenshot from here?

 

[Risewild]

Is this an old screenshot from here?

No, it's from the "Duck and Cover" forums.

 

[Fogom]

I meant to reply sooner but wanted to track down the exact quote before I did, but then go sidetracked and forgot for a couple days. Sorry about that.

The Bible is canon unless contradicted by the new games.

Emil gave a interview last year where he said "We don't just assume that everything in the Bible is canon, we have to take it step-by-step and decide."

And Emil Pagliarulo said he read the Fallout Bible several times and even slept with it under his pillow while writing Fallout 3:

I don't think that statement was intended to be taken literally. Merely as an assurance to fans that they were taking lore continuity seriously.

The other myriad points about them drawing from the Bible were never meant to be cast into doubt by me. I am aware they took ideas from it. I had just wanted to caution against taking everything in there at face value given their current stance on it, especially since the topic being discussed was a piece of info that has not been verified by any of the games (leaving its canonization suspect).

 

[Risewild]

Emil gave a interview last year where he said "We don't just assume that everything in the Bible is canon, we have to take it step-by-step and decide."

I addressed this point in my post. And quoted the entire thing too:

For us, it's always... for us, canon always starts with what is in the games. And so... it's what is in Fallout 1, Fallout 2... even some of like, Fallout Tactics is- there's some stuff from canon from Fallout Tactics as well. And our Fallout games. So, we always look at what's in the games first, and then we go to the Fallout Bible and look at the stuff. So, some of the stuff that is in Fallout 3 that is now canon came from the Fallout Bible, some of that fiction. And so... it depends. We look at the Fallout Bible and some of the lore that really... was written, y'know, back in the day. It makes sense and we use that and put it in our games. We don't just assume that everything in the Bible is canon. We have to take it step-by-step inside. It's a judgement call.

Emil said that because when they make a new game they look at the Bible and see if there is anything that would not make sense in their new game (would conflict with something in it), and it there is, that part of the Bible becomes non-canon.
That's what he means by "We don't just assume that everything in the Bible is canon. We have to take it step-by-step inside. It's a judgement call.". Basically, what's in the Bible is canon, until a new game contradicts it. That's the "judgement call" Emil means (the judgement calls are that they will not be making it how the bible says in those situations, so those are judged to be non-canon).

Basically, they only look at what's in the bible when making a new game, if there's anything that they think fits with the new game, they implement it in one way or another, if there's anything that doesn't fit and contradicts what's in the game, then it becomes non-canon. But it only becomes non-canon when the game contradicts it.

I probably repeated myself a lot, but I just woke up and can't even think properly yet.

 

[Fogom]

I addressed this point in my post. And quoted the entire thing too:

Oh, I missed that. My bad. Thank you.

Emil said that because when they make a new game they look at the Bible and see if there is anything that would not make sense in their new game (would conflict with something in it), and it there is, that part of the Bible becomes non-canon.
That's what he means by "We don't just assume that everything in the Bible is canon. We have to take it step-by-step inside. It's a judgement call.". Basically, what's in the Bible is canon, until a new game contradicts it. That's the "judgement call" Emil means (the judgement calls are that they will not be making it how the bible says in those situations, so those are judged to be non-canon).

Basically, they only look at what's in the bible when making a new game, if there's anything that they think fits with the new game, they implement it in one way or another, if there's anything that doesn't fit and contradicts what's in the game, then it becomes non-canon. But it only becomes non-canon when the game contradicts it.

I probably repeated myself a lot, but I just woke up and can't even think properly yet.

That's an interesting theory, but I prefer to interpret his words more strictly. Thanks for the input though.

 

[JustAShcookius]

Oh, I missed that. My bad. Thank you.

That's an interesting theory, but I prefer to interpret his words more strictly. Thanks for the input though.

You came in here on your high horse over the finer details of the location of a place in a game from over a decade ago and getting pissy about it when people interact with you while trying to act like it is actually you who is annoyed.
Shut up bro.

“Good faith effort” - pretty rich from you considering you’ve seemed pretty smug and condescending throughout this conversation.

The fact of the matter is we’re BOTH making suppositions, because we’re talking about the location of a fictional place in a video game when we’re never told where it is. The basis for your model is that you think saying “up along 127” must have meant along 127 the entire way, and incredulity at the zone of effect of a Pahrump H-A extending so far north. That’s it.

You may well be right, and it’s fine that you disagree with me. What is in my opinion less fine is you’re pretending that you make no supposition whatsoever, that you are driven by no ‘feeling’ or opinion. That’s just downright dishonest, and moreover you’ve done it in a fairly rude matter.

Again, it’s fine that you have a difference of opinion. But your approach to this conversation has been pretty dogshit.

(and the terminal you’re looking for is Y-0)

To my mind the DLC locations are slightly indicated by their entry point's location on the map. Honest Hearts Northern Passage correlating to the Long-15 route up to Zion, the Lonesome Road Caravan Wreckage correlating roughly to the Death Valley/Highway 127 area and the Crashed Satellite of OWB correlates to its logical location of Mt. Kingston (Big Empty was formerly a mountain close to the Divide and forms a wall next to the Long 15), sorta.

Therefore I'd wager that the Sierra Madre is east of the Mojave, in Arizona. Due to the location of its entry point via the abandoned BoS bunker. We know that it takes Dog/God 3 days to carry the Courier that direction, and the only indication of the Madre's location is a photo in the intro-slides that looks like this

I would wager that the Sierra Madre is somewhere in the vicinity/region of the Grand Canyon. We are told in Dead Money itself that the Madre was extremely inaccessible, to the point you couldn't really drive your car there because it was so tight to navigate. That seems to fit the canyonland bill pretty well, no?Likely not in the Grand Canyon itself due to the Legion's history, but probably somewhere in the vicinity of Hualapai Indian Reservation. Would make sense why Ulysses is the one who knows where it is and tells Elijah, being an Arizona tracker.

I now have definitive evidence and some extra lore about The Divide and Big Empty.

According to Joshua Graham:
1. There are other accessible land-routes into the Mojave other than Mojave Outpost. With the exception of Highway 127 for an unknown reason.
2. The Divide is near Death Valley.
3. The Divide WAS used by NCR as a supply line, not merely scouted and explored.
4. The Divide is NOT in Nevada.
5. The Big Empty is near the Divide AND Death Valley, putting to rest any debate on that matter.
6. Death Valley is implied to be very difficult if not impossible to traverse for obvious reasons.
7. Highway 95 is blocked or made impractical for travel by four things:
-Death Valley
-Highway 127 North
-The Divide (Pahrump)
-and the Big Empty

I even uploaded an older recording of the conversation I had on my hard drive to Youtube: