Who else REALLY hated Amata?

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Tarantulakelurk, May 2, 2014.

  1. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Do you think one single person will need it ?
    The writters have no clues about survival at all. Even the most common Capital Wasteland feral ghoul would know more about survival than these two.
    Children might know even more.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  2. TheChosen1

    TheChosen1 Moving Target

    Nov 8, 2012
    Well, TP is very hard to come by in a desert you know.
     
  3. Timbus95

    Timbus95 Banned

    43
    May 25, 2014
    And you know for 100% fact that no one in the entire country will need it? We live in a world filled with technology and computers, can anyone and everyone program their computer easily without a manual 100% of the time? And what if the people in the wasteland don't know any ghouls or those ghouls don't know much, not every ghoul is a walking encyclopedia of knowledge.
     
  4. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    What do you mean by TP ?
     
  5. TheChosen1

    TheChosen1 Moving Target

    Nov 8, 2012
    Toilet Paper.

    EDIT: I mean, it could be used for campfires as well I guess...
     
  6. FOvet

    FOvet Wandering the Wastelands

    344
    Aug 26, 2012
    I actually thought the Wasteland Survival Guide was a really good idea. And while Moira may be a bit...well, loopy, to be kind (I do love her character and personality though, she's probably my favorite from Fallout 3), she IS a survivor and has experience working with traders and adventurers like your character. So I don't see why she wouldn't be a decent author to write the book. It's not like she was attempting to do it by herself--she actually wanted to do real research. My only real question is her judgement to use someone who literally just walked out of a vault, having spent his or her entire life outside of the wasteland.

    But even then, your character is actually going through these experiences, learning from them. There is no better tool for learning then experience--and one's own experiences can be invaluable to other people. And as has been said before, just because you were born into the wasteland doesn't mean you're going to be good at survival. Look at Brian Wilkes; if your character hadn't come along, he'd have been ant food. Look at the numerous dead bodies you find strewn about the wasteland. All of them dead. One encounter in particular that comes to mind is the traders you sometimes find that are poorly armed, barely able to scrape by. THEY sure could use some help, before they end up in the stomach of a few different Yao Guai.

    I think the survival guide was a great idea, could be potentially helpful to anyone, and while one may question the authors themselves, they seem to me, to be decent enough candidates to write it. Moira is doing the writing, and your character is out doing the research. I don't have to be an expert in first aid to do some research and write a damn good guide on how to conduct proper CPR. Same principle can apply here.
     
  7. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Moira >
    Every clues that we have suggest that she wouldn't survive 5 minutes outside her shack. She was made purposly that way by the devellopers. It is not incidental, but what they intended to do.

    The Lone Wanderer >
    Moira's quests are tutorial quests. You usually do those before other quests, which makes you a rookie whan helping her.
     
  8. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Moira >
    Every clues that we have suggest that she wouldn't survive 5 minutes outside her shack. She was made purposly that way by the devellopers. It is not incidental, but what they intended to do.

    The Lone Wanderer >
    Moira's quests are tutorial quests. You usually do those before other quests, which makes you a rookie when helping her.
     
  9. Timbus95

    Timbus95 Banned

    43
    May 25, 2014
    Considering that she knows first aid, created a exploding mole-rat repellent and created a book popular enough to reach New Vegas says otherwise. Digging with a mini nuke may be pretty stupid, but she's not completely out of it.

    Does it matter that their tutorial quests? Killing the radscorpions for Shady Sands in Fallout 1 was a more or less tutorial quest and the Vault Dweller was a rookie just as much. The survival guide is a tutorial quest with a justified reason, much better than New Vegas where the tutorial was so obvious it almost hurts.
     
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  10. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    About Moira, she might have learnt chinese, it wouldn't spare her the bad decision that she is clearly making all the time. Not just once, every single time. There must be a party in the Capital Wasteland every time she makes a good one. Trying to cook fish with a stick of dynamite could kill her in a second.

    Tutorial quest > beginning of the game > The character just left his vault > He spent 19 years in a vault and 1-2 outside > He is the worst person in the outside work to write that book > Being the worst people to write that book means that everyone else is better at it > If they are better at it, they don't need a book from someone that are worse than them > If they don't need it, they don't buy it > If they don't buy it, they don't carry it > If they don't carry it, it won't magically end up at the other end of the world > If it cannot magically end up at the other end of the world, it cannot be at the Mojave > If it cannot be at the Mojave, they have another book > period
     
  11. Timbus95

    Timbus95 Banned

    43
    May 25, 2014
    She used a mini nuke to dig a hole ONCE... AND she was smart enough to realize it was a bad idea, you make her out be be completely retarded. If she WAS she would be dead now and the book would never be in the Mojave. And yes, the book is the same one from NV no matter how much you deny it, if it wasn't, why did the developers SAY something or imply something or do something that directed it to be not the same book?

    That's "insane troll logic", going by the same logic "I shouldn't go outside ever because: cars are outside > cars can kill people > cars drive on roads > you must cross the road sometimes > thus you'll die by going outside > period". you automatically assume that the lone wanderer couldn't do those things. Fun fact, the people of Shady Sands probably didn't expect the vault dweller to survive killing those radscorpions yet they didn't do anything to stop him. And your logic about "everyone being better" is flawed: just because there're better in the wasteland DOES NOT mean that they are geniuses at surviving there, the same way that "Revenge of the Sith" is better than "The Phantom Menace" does not make it better than "The Empire Strikes Back".
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  12. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    If you want to disregard her whole characterization, it is your choice, not mine.

    I believe i mentioned it already, but Obsidian aren't allowed to make official statements.

    Your point is ?

    PS: Your radiation point is misclick.
     
  13. Timbus95

    Timbus95 Banned

    43
    May 25, 2014
    Ok then, how do YOU think she has survived for so long, since she is clearly less intelligent than a newborn baby?

    You haven't mentioned it yet, you kept mentioning that the wasteland survival guide in NV isn't the same one EVEN THOUGH IT IS! And implying the WSG isn't the same one is not an official statement so that fact they never hinted it was different means it's the same one.

    It was an example of how someone or something being better oes not mean it's "BETTER". Just because other people are better regarding the wasteland doesn't mean a vault dweller couldn't give it a go and be successful.

    What do you mean?
     
  14. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    It is never hinted to be the same one, and unfortunatly, many people wrongly believe it is the same book, which gives credit to an unconsequential character, that was silly on purpose.

    As i mentioned earlier, i have nothing agains't the fact the character is silly. It was intended that way as a comic relief. She is not the only silly character in the franchise. I kind of love Harry, Tabitha and the various drunkard.

    What bothers me are some unfortunate consequences surrounding her. Amongs those, the fact that the player character doesn't have enough reasons to accept utterly crazy and overly risky quest, like walking on a minefield for no reason. There is better be a good reason to accept risking losing one or both legs, or even dying if there is nothing to get. (Also it is 99999% impossible not to consider seriously brain damaged someone who would happily send you there without understanding what it means)

    Then there is the fact many people believe (and even if it is weird, i am ready to accept that you actually believe it) that the same book reached the Mojave. Then, it is unfortunate that Obsidian aren't even able to make official statements, like they could have done many times for previous games. My assumption that they would make disapear that controversy, come from their history of making the right call on those matters and even look back in some of the things actually done in the games to say that they would remove them if they could and never put them back again, if they were too silly. (like ghost, talking animal, Marcus saying he can make children, etc...)

    So if i never been in your country, never heard of it, and if i come in it, i will know its culture better than you ?
    (after spending a few hours/days, not a month, of course)
    Then consider your answer and take it up to eleven, as it is an entire different world.

    PS: Shouldn't this thread be moved into the Fallout 3 section ? There is no character named Amata in the other games, and hopefully there won't be in upcomings Fallout games.

    One of your post got radiations from me. It wasn't on purpose. (you can give radiations points to other people posts)
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  15. Timbus95

    Timbus95 Banned

    43
    May 25, 2014
    It was also never hinted that it wasn't the same one, WHERE in New Vegas do they say, imply, hint or otherwise interpret that the book is made by someone else, and no, you thinking it isn't the same book IS NOT PROOF.

    The reason is because she's WRITING A BOOK ABOUT SURVIVAL! You know, that thing that keeps you from getting killed all the time? And that kinda requires you to gather information. She sends you to Minefield to get a landmine so she can study it and write in her book so people know to see and take care of them! As a question, do you on a personal level know how to disarm a landmine in real life with no help whatsoever? What would make the people of the wasteland automatically know?

    If they didn't want the WSG in New Vegas than I dunno... not put it into the game in the first place? Obviously Bethesda did not force them to put it in as there are only a handful of references to Fallout 3 in New Vegas and if Bethesda was as "iron-fisted" as people on here make em' out to be, there would be PLENTY more references found. The WSG in New Vegas is clearly the same one and I don't know how it weird when logically the one we see is the same one. If there were hints that if it was different than maybe, but the fact the game gives you NO HINTS WHATSOEVER that it's different pretty much means "it's the same one!"

    This isn't about culture, it's about survival, anyone can learn survival, it's not learning a new language. People in vaults have books to teach them to defend themselves. People on the outside don't have those and have to rely on teachings from others who may or may not know what they're doing. Moira obviously did something right since if you do extensive work during the quests, the people of the wasteland LOVE the book. If you didn't do extensive work and lied to her on the info, the book is a dud (not her fault though, it's the players fault if they gave her shitty information).

    I was wondering what those were, what do they do?
     
  16. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Same could be said for the opposite. Except that one of those two option make sense. Unless proved otherwise i stick to the option that makes sense. There is no proof that flying rose elephant don't exist, but i still believe that they don't.

    So it justifies sending people to their death in a place there is thousands of mines. Wouldn't make more sense to go into a landmine factory and get landmine blueprints and manual ? Or ask the doctors or people that are used to treat people wounded from mines ? Or reach those wounder to learn how they got wounded ? Does she need to risk more lives to gather information she could have through other means ? Does it makes sense to you that she doesn't care for people life and want to talk about survival ? Don't tell me it is just the mines. It is the same thing for half of her quests and even informations you can get from her computer. There is a consistency on the writters part (at least on that characterization) to makes sure she is the most unlikely person to make that book. And even if somebody else made that book, and she had the opportunity to read it, she would still risk her life or those of the others for little reasons, and not even be aware about it, because it is what she is at the very core.


    There is no book about survival that have a more generic title. If you find a book called "book of history" in London and find another book called "book of history", in Sydney, you will automatically assume it is the very same book ? Second, there is the fact i mentioned earlier that they need items for book skills. It was easier to take an existing item and change a few stats, than creating a new item. They spared time that they could use doing other stuff, like quests, or C&C.

    Doesn't change the fact that Wasteland people spent centuries surviving in the Wasteland they live in, while the LW spent his whole life in a safe place that has no relationship with the Wasteland, was built before the Wasteland ever existed, and only contain book, database and knowledge that make no mention of a world that existed after they were built. Not mentionning the fact that vault 101 never had to learn those outdated informations, as they were never supposed to leave the vault. Even the movie introduction outright say it.


    They do nothing. They are the NMA counterpart of FB likes.

    PS: Comment still remains about this thread more fitted for Fo3 section.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
  17. TheChosen1

    TheChosen1 Moving Target

    Nov 8, 2012
    So that justifies sending a 19 year old kid out into a minefield to disarm said mines? The ones that no one in the wasteland apparently knows how to disarm?

    What books are there about survival in a hostile situation (not even a wasteland) in a vault which was never intended to open?
     
  18. helios1

    helios1 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    123
    Mar 10, 2014
    Don't forget the old man voice, the "butch" voice, the 10 year old kid, the old lady, and that generic man voice. I swear every single old man has the exact same voice, like not one old man had a unique voice at all.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  19. Timbus95

    Timbus95 Banned

    43
    May 25, 2014
    Since when is choosing to believe something that isn't even implied when the opposite is heavily implied to be true the logical choice? THERE IS NOT IMPLICATION THAT IT'S DIFFERENT AND HEAVILY IMPLIED TO BE THE SAME! Here are the images of both the F3 & F:NV survival guides:

    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Wasteland_Survival_Guide_(Fallout_3)
    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Wasteland_Survival_Guide_(Fallout:_New_Vegas)

    It must be one hell of a coincidence that the NV survival guide has the exact same NAME and COVER and FONT as the one from F3 and that it's the rarest skill book meaning that it must be new and not prewar or from the Core Region as it would be mass produced by now. I get that you don't like Fallout 3, but ignoring the logical conclusion just so you can ignore it is pretty strange to say the least.


    Is there a landmine factory in Fallout 3, if you know I'd love to know where, and where are the doctors in Megaton who treat landmines? I didn't think that the civvies of Megaton had to worry about landmines so much, what with only one town in the whole CW being filled with them. And people outside the CW could use the landmine chapter of the book so you can't use the last part of that sentence as an example in your argument. Anyway, the book mentions how to "disarm" a landmine and how to make them yourself, not what to do if you blow your leg off.

    Where are all the prewar computers which tell everybody how to survive? Do you think that when people are scavenging for food and machinery they would take every opportunity to read every computer they come across? It might sound likely until you remember that the last 147 computers you read just had generic nonsense on them, what would make you think the 148'th computer have something useful. Most of the computers ingame have nonsense on them unless they open a safe or door or something, good luck finding any survival tactics within those computers or burnt books. She's writing that book for a reason and in doing so you have to get your hands dirty.

    It's heavily implied to be the same one! In a series like this, you can't just introduce something with the same title and just hope the audience figures out it's different, you say if it is! And just because it's a "generic title" dosen't mean it's not the same one. You still haven't told me why Obsidian didn't say, imply, hint, or do anything that would imply it's different.


    Like I said, anyone can learn survival! Some better than others. Learning a language or culture than others can take years for some. Learning how to properly tie a bandage could take a couple hours, a day at most. The book helps tackle some of the more complicated tasks, if building a successful settlement is as easy as you interpret , I'd love to know how. And also, why does the Vault Dweller from Fallout 1 get a pass on this? He was in the LW's exact same shoes and I see NOBODY bitching about everything he did with little trouble at all.

    Nobody in Megaton does as nobody implies they do (and they have jobs around town, they can't just head out to the wasteland for something that might kill them) and the LW is new in town so this is a golden chance for Moira. Besides, the WSG was a dream of hers and she only really started to work on the book recently so she probably didn't care the LW was from a vault, she probably didn't want the opportunity to slip out of her hands. Your wording also indicates that being a 19 year old makes the LW too incompetent for jobs around town, the apocalypse make people grow up fast.

    Like I said, the LW's new in town, she has a dream, the LW can help with the dream, she probably wasn't thinking straight (and by the sound of her voice when she first talked about the WSG, she probably wasn't). Besides, so what if the vault was never intended to open? Just in case, have the vault have survival information. Just because we don't expect something doesn't mean that precautions can't be taken. Zombies don't exist but we have Zombie Survival Guide's, the Zombie Research society and Mathematical modelling of an outbreak of zombie infection, as unlikely as a outbreak seems. In a vault designed to stay closed, it's not a stretch that they would have some survival info regardless.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
  20. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    I only answer to new things as i think i answered many things already and don't want to run on circles.

    - Don't mistake apocalypse with wasteland. Apocalypse was an event that happened long ago, at a time people weren't prepared for. Wasteland is the world people live in for centuries. It is like mistaking the dark ages that happened during & after the fall or the roman empire, and the feudal era that came after and last centuries. During the dark ages, everything fell apart because they had no idea of what to do or didn't have the power to change anything. The feudal world that came after was a world people got well used to and didn't have problem to adapt. They didn't even have to adapt. It was their world.

    - It is not heavily implied to be the same. This is something you want to convince your self. There is no npc, no log, no ingame menue that outright tell you that this specific book was the same that the one written by Moira & the LW. Even the MZ crap about the alien responsible for the bombs was more implied. (and i don't consider they implied it. Just that many players wanted to believe it because the little piece they had, a piece that could mean anything else)

    - On what the Vault dweller get a free pass ? The quest that send him out of the vault is a quest for the survival of the whole vault, it is implied that he might not survive, he wasn't the only one sent out (Ed & Talius were from vault 13, if i am not wrong), his abilities depends on the skills you chose, with strenghts and weaknesses, the level of challenges grows the further you go from your vault, i your not strong enough to face them, you will pay the price, it takes you entire days to move between any settlements, and some of your companions cannonically die.

    - Informations goes fast in the Capital Wasteland. Whatever you are doing, 3Dogs will now it a day later tops, the regulators/Talon Company will know quickly how people behave and where they are. Moira could get her informations safely if they at least tried to reach the right source. If she wanted to disarm landmines, they could get that intel from blueprint, or from people that already disarmed mines, or post a notice to get people that have those knowledges, not send a boy that never did that you risk his life for informations she could get otherwise.

    - Zombie survival guide is a book for fans of the zombie universe. Even if the author did some "research" it is not meant in order to have people ready for the zombie outbreak. By the way, those zombies already exist in our imagination. If we were overunn by monsters, it would be more likely that we would be attacked by unknown monsters. In fiction with zombies (or walking dead), those creature don't exist in in-universe fiction. They are entirelly aliens.

    - Don't ask me any question if you keep ignoring my answer and asking those questions again.