Why America Invaded Iraq:

Okay, so my post kinda sucked. Hmm..

But in response to the fallacies in your post, Kharn:

Sander, there's a difference between what the nazi party told people and what the nazi party believed. To say "they wanted lebensraum, just look at their posters" is like saying "America only wanted to help Europe without any other reasons than that they're good, just look at their posters"
Ehmm...yep, that argument kinda sucked. But what I was trying to support(anti-communism) is still true for Hitler.

You really need to work on your history. The reason was not two-folds, the folds just stretch on and expand as they go. The powerblock alliance-though doesn't really work for WW II, anymore than it did for WW I.
True.

Thing is, Hitler didn't expect anyone to declare war after Poland, and nobody really did. His intention was to fold over the Baltic states and then attack Russia, as you said (though "his plans were to take Russia" is kinda wrong, the Baltic states were still the focus), but he didn't expect anyone to interfere.
I should've said Eastern Europe instead of Russia. Hrmph.

War was declared on Germany, much to its surprise, first by France, then by a very hesitant England. Was the Netherlands the only neutral country? Bwahahaha! Good joke. Rich. Like Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway and Sweden weren't.
Of those countries only Belgium, Luxemburg and Belgium got involved. Luxemburg slipped my mind, Norway was stupid of me, and I'm not too certain about Belgium, but you may very well be right there. You forgot about Denmark, though(I think...)

Were the European invasions a part of a scheme to attack England?
No, they were partly a scheme to protect itself from England and invasions from that way.

Hitler was interested first in Eastern Europe, secondly in Western Europe, and England was just another part of Western Europe. It became a source of interest and annoyance later simply because the Blitzkreig didn't work on it, fine, but it never was a point of focus like the Baltic states were
Which is exactly what I said. Thank you.

EDIT: FIxed a bit of silly style-errors.
 
According to Hitler's Trator, Hitler wanted to ally with England. In fact, the reason the Allied forces were allowed to escape Dunkirk was actualy that Hitler intentionaly stopped the attack to help Britian.

Hitler only attacked Russia later because he knew that the British were counting on him getting into a tussle with Stalin, and thus leave Britian alone.

Hitler fell into a trap when he came up with the brillant plan to crush Russia to force a conciliation from the British.
 
Sander said:
Ancient Oldie: One thing, the MAIN reason Russia was invaded by the Germans was most probably not oil. IN fact, thatwas probably one of the least likely reasons. The more likely reasons were so-called "Lebensraum" and the fact that Hitler considered the communists a huge threat to society and to Germany. YOu only need to look at several posters, including election posters from 1933, to see that.
The reason Germany attacked France, ENgland, Norway and the rest of the western world were two-fold. First, there was the fact that Germany had been declared war upon by those countries(except for the neutral Netherlands) after invading Poland. To that end, Hitler invaded Norway to block that way of attacking by the English, and he also invaded France, the Netherlands and Belgium for the same reason. The other reason wqas to be able to attck England better, so he could get the annoying English out of his plans. His original plans were to take Russia, but when other countries got involved he wanted to get rid of them first, which is lofical, noone wants a two-front war.
The stupid fucker then still decided to invade Russia after some delay because of Italy invading Greece, starting a two-front war too late in the year to avoid the winter. That's probably what his main downfall was, besides the Americans. But if the Americans had refrained from getting involved in that war, Hitler would eventually still have lost from the Sovjet Union.

Damn Sanders, you disappoint me. Not only are you overlooking the fact that Germany was relying more and more on Russia for its oil as the war progressed and Hitler bacame more ambitious, but you are also overlooking several other factors, including the Molotov - Ribbenstop Pact which parceled Eastern Europe among these two countries.

As Germany was occupied with Western Europe, Russia had overtaken huge chunks of oil rich land in Rumania, an ally of Germany that had a trade agreement for oil with them. The loss off Rumania threatened the supplies of both Germany and Italy. To top it off, Russia also wanted several oil rich areas around the Persian Gulf and they wanted Germany to remove their troops from Finland and Rumania. Hitler was outraged, and thus began Operation Barbarossa.

Although, in hindsight, Hitler's invasion of Russia was a disastrous mistake, at the time they really didn't have much of a choice if they wanted to be self-sufficient.

As for Dunkirk, It was miscommunication among the German High Command, as well as a belief that the British and French were going to counterattack, that allowed the British enough time to evacuate their troops.

About Hitler trying to get on the Brits good side by attacking Russia, that's pure bullshit, especially when you take into consideration that the Battle of Britain had occured prior to Barbarossa.

Sander said:
Were the European invasions a part of a scheme to attack England?
No, they were partly a scheme to protect itself from England and invasions from that way.

It all depends on what countries you're referring to. On Norway, for example, both comments would be correct, since Hitler knew that if the Allies controlled Norway, he would be at a disadvantage, but if he controlled it, it would make it easier for his navy to invade Britain.
 
Ancient Oldie said:
As for Dunkirk, It was miscommunication among the German High Command, as well as a belief that the British and French were going to counterattack, that allowed the British enough time to evacuate their troops.

Miscommunication, as well as several figures in OKH getting antsy about whether or not the mechanized "wonder weapons" could actually do the job. The mechanized divisions that were in place to wipe out the pocket at Dunkirk were badly in need of rest and maintenance, which is one of the factors that led to the solution of letting Goerring try to do it from the air.

Ancient_Oldie said:
About Hitler trying to get on the Brits good side by attacking Russia, that's pure bullshit, especially when you take into consideration that the Battle of Britain had occured prior to Barbarossa.

I agree, but I have to point out that British success in the Battle of Britain has been largely exagerated. Here are the figures from the crucial phase of the battle (16 AUG 6 SEP 40):

The "official" figures:

British losses: 292 aircraft
German losses: 855

Actual losses culled from archival sources:

British losses: 343
German losses: 527

Basically, the British underreported their losses by roughly 15%, but -- far more importantly -- they over-reported German losses by a factor exceeding 60%.

The fact is that the British came so close to collapse during the Battle that even had they been faring better militarily if it hadn't been for the financial aid of the US their gov't would have had to fold. Things were so bad that super-secret surrender negotiations between the British and German gov'ts weren't cancelled until that financial aid began to arrive. The actual goings-on of those meetings are sitting in an English archive and won't be declassified until (IIRC) 2015 or 2016. (Personally, I'm dying to see how much the history of WWII will have to be revised thanks to those documents.)

The real reasons for Hitler's turning away from England are actually many-fold. For one thing, the English were still in such a bad spot that it really didn't look like they could have made any kind of a reposte. (Remember that the English empire at that point was still very much a vast thing that the sun never set upon, and to take troops out of one point necessarily weakened their position, as the events of late '41 and early '42 would soon show.) Another was the the notion that the Germans had anything approaching long range plans in WWII is laughable. Hitler wasn't a long range planner, excepting that he had some ethereal notion of what he wanted to get, but no real plans as to how to get it. He was an opportunist, purely and simply. The ultimate goal of Pan-Germanic self-sufficiency led Hitler in many directions, including Norway, Eastern Europe (and the Romanians were all to glad to align w/the Germans since the USSR had occupied some of their territory) and finally deep into the USSR itself.

While the Germans did aim at the oil fields in the Caucasus -- the notion that they were aiming at the oil field in the middle east w/a pincer movement planned for early '43 was something that was only brought up once at a staff meeting, and when it was brought up again two weeks later, it was politely ignored by Hitler. This was prior to the disasters at Stalingrad and El Alamien having even begun, so it wasn't simply a matter of their attention having been caught up in damage control.

One thing I would like to add is that I think people are getting too fixated on oil. Just like everyone's attention back in the '70s was riveted on the dangers of lead and we saw scholars pouring over Roman history to find evidence of lead poisoning in Ancient Rome -- something that was highly touted as a cause of the decline of Rome then as a result of their lead plumbing, but has since been shown only to have affected the upper classes who used lead acetate as an artificial sweetner -- so people seem to be fixating on oil as the root of all evil these days. Wars are resource driven, that much we know. However, "resources" is not a synonym for "oil". While the root causes of WWII were definitely resource-related, these resources were quite numerous, including everything from simple room to house people, to grain, iron, oil, rubber, manganese, etc., etc. So I urge caution when trying to attribute too much to the drive to secure "black gold".

Ancient_Oldie said:
...Hitler knew that if the Allies controlled Norway, he would be at a disadvantage, but if he controlled it, it would make it easier for his navy to invade Britain.

True. Norway proved a disastrous point to launch air raids on England, though. None of the raids launched from there managed any kind of succes, and invariably suffered much heavier casualties than those launched cross-channel. Also, unfortunately for the Germans, they suffered some very bad luck during the invasion of Norway. While on land they actually performed much better than conventional wisdom indicated they should (the operation was launched w/very little planning or special training) the naval side of the house was a disaster, w/unacceptable losses in shipping thanks to some both intrepid as well as fortuitous action by the Royal Navy.

Cheers,

OTB
 
One of the great mysteries of World War 2, for me, was Rudolf Hess. The idea of dropping Hitler's #2 guy into England by parachute just seemed nutty. But then holding him for life in Spandau prison, under alternating US, UK and Russian guards (maybe French too) also seemed a bit high maintenance. What did this guy know or represent that meritted this kind of attention?

By take on World War 2 is a bit different and I think Kharn is a bit harsh on Sander here. I also think that we need to accept that there could be many motives articulated for supporting a war, but perhaps only one or two primary ones.

I believe that Hitler expected to go to war with France eventually. That the battle plan for the war looks a lot like the battle plan from World War 1 is probably because both based themselves on the Schlieffen Plan- take France out of the war and turn attention to Russia. However the reasons were a mix of ideology and power. Hitler expected that the Germans which had the potential to be the major power of Europe, was going to be overwhelmed by the power of Russia. The Germans, and especially Hitler, believed there was a narrow window of opportunity to launch the war. He held off the initiation until fairly late because he didn't have the war machine to fight it (but yet still before the Navy was ready for the war).

Why launch the war? Because of the rising power of the communists. I read somewhere in the documents that Hitler once said that the main threat was Russia, that if they waited too long it would be too late, Russia would already be too powerful, and that the rest of the countries of Europe should be on his side in this war against communism. Interestingly, the same argument could be used to explain World War 1. In both cases the Germans were worried about the power of Russia.

However, it did seem that Hitler anticipated that France would go to war and had a plan with which to deal with France.
 
welsh said:
One of the great mysteries of World War 2, for me, was Rudolf Hess.

Indeed. Issues like this aren't likely to be revealed in the near future, if at all, either. Personally, I'd love to run amuck in the archives of the major combatants w/a crack team of researchers (and...uh...linguists), but so much of it is still classified since we mere mortals aren't allowed to call the judgement of our leaders into question beyond a certain point, even in the most democratic of societies.

Welsh said:
Why launch the war? Because of the rising power of the communists. I read somewhere in the documents that Hitler once said that the main threat was Russia, that if they waited too long it would be too late, Russia would already be too powerful, and that the rest of the countries of Europe should be on his side in this war against communism.

Hitler was a steadfast enemy of communism. This is something that is often overlooked in the West, but he had powerful friends in Britain, France and -- perhaps most importantly -- the US (notably Ford) who saw him as a bullwark against the Bolshevists. The Nazi parties from its very inception grappled w/the Bolsheviks, both in Germany and later abroad. This fact is one of the main reasons that the US Trading with the Enemy Act of '17 was amended in Dec. of '41 to allow US corporations to continue trading w/Germany. (This is not a fable or conspiracy theory, but rather something that has been proven by documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act back in the late '80s, by one Charles Higham.)

It is notable that in the occupied territories, German propaganda urged peoples to take up arms against the ComIntern, and this tactic was a cornerstone of the expansion of the SS in the later war years.

Regarding timing of the invasion, yes, Hitler wanted to take on the Soviet Union before it became too powerful. It was known that the Soviet army had been purged, and it had made a very poor showing of itself in Finland, it was also still reeling from absorbing the fifth-rate armies of the Ukraine and other states. However, it must be noted that had Hitler had any idea of how powerful the Soviet Army was at that time he might have backed off. Guderian had returned from a tour in the USSR w/an estimate that they had roughly 30,000 tanks and was told to amend this to 20,000 so as not to alarm Hitler. Hitler dismissed it as alarmism, even w/the lower, doctored figure. Fortunately for the Germans the Soviets were obsessed w/annual vehicle production figures and did not have adequate stocks of spare parts. Still, the number of enemy vehicles encountered in '41 staggered German intelligence, who were always convinced that after this or that next large formation was wiped out the Soviets would be depleted.

welsh said:
However, it did seem that Hitler anticipated that France would go to war and had a plan with which to deal with France.

I don't think that Hitler actually thought that England or France would go to war over Poland. Fall Gelb ("Case Yellow") which was the invasion plan put into action in May of '40 wasn't planned before the invasion of Poland, but only drafted after the French and English had declared war in the wake of Germany's invasion of Poland. So, if Hitler had plans to invade France, he hadn't let the General Staff know about it. When he did let them know about it, they essentially -- as you remarked -- resurrected the Schlieffen Plan. This was part of the reason that there was a lull from October '39 to May '40, since Britain, France and Germany were all essentially unprepared for what was to come next.

That last bit brings me to my own view of WWII: I think it was -- like most human events -- essentially a hive of various factions all bent on achieving their aims. In the end the whole thing blew up, getting more and more out of control as it went along and more people were sucked into it willingly or unwillingly. Quite a few people ended up fighting people that -- given their "druthers" they wouldn't have. This last category would include the bulk of the US captains of industry struggling against the Nazis.

OTB
 
Wow. Loads of takes on WW2 there.

My take now:

Hitler was a power-hungry fascist who wanted to get rid of communism, who wanted their space for natural resources(Ranging from space to farm, to, indeed(and I hate to say it) oil). He tried to get as far as he could without getting into trouble with the English and French, and in hindsight the appeasement politics were bad. Butwhen he invaded Poland, he did get war decared upon him. He needed to block Norway as a path to him, so he had to take it. Eventually, he also invaded France, Holland, Luxembourg and Belgium, and tried to invade England.
He made some mistakes, though. The first being that he actually continued with his plan to attack Russia, after his forces had been delayed by Mussolini and his silly plan to take Greece. If Hitler had stopped there, and had waited another year to attack just as the winter ended, he wouldn't have had that many problems with Russia, and he might even have won there.
The second mistake being that he actually attacked Russia while still fighting with England.
The third mistake being that he declared war upon the USA after his allies, the Japanese, did as well. If he hadn't done that, there would've been a significant change that Roosevelt would have had to leave him alone under public(isolationist) pressure. If the Japanese hadn't attacked the USA it would've been extremely unlikely that the USA got involved at all.
 
Sander said:
The first [mistake] being that he actually continued with his plan to attack Russia, after his forces had been delayed by Mussolini and his silly plan to take Greece. If Hitler had stopped there, and had waited another year to attack just as the winter ended, he wouldn't have had that many problems with Russia, and he might even have won there.

I have to disagree here. Yes, Barbarossa was kicked off roughly 6 weeks later than the "no later than" date that its author Gen. Erich Marcks put down. Yes, the operations in the Balkans were conducted largely by mechanized forces and this wear-and-tear made itself felt during the invasion of the USSR. IIRC it also led to the loss of the bulk 2nd Pz. Div.'s vehicles when a British submarine sank the ship they were on.

However, had the Germans not swung south towards Kiev to encircle a large Soviet concentration, which cost them 2+ months and instead pushed on to Moscow they would almost certainly have taken Moscow, even though the operation had been started too late. Instead, Hitler order a stop to offensive operations aiming at the Moscow-Gorki area and instead embarked on an operation which cost the Soviets 600,000 men in prisoners alone, along w/numerous other casualties and losses in materiel. While this was in some ways a smashing success, the problem was the the offensive aiming at the Moscow-Gorki area was not resumed until roughly mid-October and then the Russian winter became an issue, along w/the fact that where formerly a paltry 10 divisions of poorly equipped troops that the powerful panzer group could have literally brushed aside on the approaches to Moscow were now numerous other divisions in much better positions, and also this had given the Soviets time to bring in crack divisions from Siberia.

The problem w/waiting until '42 to launch the offensive was that the Soviets were not sitting idly by. They were in a massive program to modernize their military, which included the vaunted T-34 medium tank and the much less famous KV series of heavy tank. These were available in only very, very small numbers when the Germans invaded in '41, but production was already being stepped up before the invasion. Even in the very limited numbers the Germans encountered them in during '41 they exacted a very heavy toll due to the large disparity in gun power and armor between them and their German counterparts. Even w/o the impetus of a German invasion they would have been available in much larger quantities in '42 and hence the Germans would have likely not been able to pull off smashing successes that they did the way things actually went.

OTB
 
Back to Iraq.

Here is something from the Economist- an analysis of George Bush's revolution in Foreign Policy. Apparently, the argument goes, he's not an idiot, but very smart.

It's is "God given mission" that worries me.

Note, Sander's argument elsewhere that America is searching for enemies, might be unique to this president and his own sense of "global mission."


http://medlem.spray.se/james_bond/bondbrudar/18/bilder/thomsen_5.jpg


American foreign policy

In search of monsters
Dec 18th 2003
From The Economist print edition

America Unbound: The Bush Revolution in Foreign Policy
By Ivo H. Daalder and James M. Lindsay
Brookings Institution Press; 246 pages; $22.95

DON'T misunderestimate George Bush. That is the central message of “America Unbound”, an account of how, after a largely misspent youth, a callow man became at the age of 48 governor of Texas and then, just six years later, president of the United States—whereupon he turned America's foreign policy upside down.

Mr Bush is widely seen, abroad if not at home, as a bonehead with more brawn than brain who has little control over his administration, especially of the neoconservatives who seem to exert such influence within it. This view is rubbish, argue Ivo Daalder and James Lindsay, both scholars at American think-tanks. Mr Bush is his own man; he sees himself as the chief executive officer of a huge enterprise and acts accordingly; he has a world view and a clear idea of how America should fit into it; and he is no fool. Moreover, all of this could be detected from his conduct on the campaign trail. It is not the product of finding himself in the White House, still less of the events of September 11th 2001.

Trouble with grammar and a propensity to utter malapropisms have made people think Mr Bush is stupid. The evidence from his exam results suggests otherwise (he attended both Yale and Harvard, and his scores in the national scholastic aptitude tests were more than respectable). His all-too-evident ignorance, and his candid admissions of it, have made people think he has no convictions either. He might not know where Kosovo was, but, he said more revealingly, “I know what I believe in.” As the authors point out, most people do not form their views in the light of facts; indeed, the more facts they know, the less likely they are to hold simple convictions.

The president was not a complete ignoramus: he knew where to look for help. Thus he plundered the address book of his Republican predecessors for the top members of his administration—not so much people from his father's day as from Gerald Ford's and Ronald Reagan's. Philosophically, George Bush junior is not his father's son but Mr Reagan's, and like the Gipper he too came to the presidency with priorities, even though he had to change them after September 11th. When he did so, however, it was not to abandon his former foreign-policy ideas but to direct them towards the single goal of fighting terror.

What were these beliefs? In short, they held that the world was a bad, dangerous place; that the nation-state was its most important constituent part; that power, especially military power, was the coin of the realm in such a world; that international organisations and treaties only constrained the use of American power; and that, uniquely among nations, America's interests and its ideals were at one. This was the altogether new element that Mr Bush brought to foreign policy—the conviction that America's motives were always pure and would be seen as such by others because it wanted only to spread freedom, prosperity and peace. It led easily on to what he was to term the “new doctrine called pre-emption” that he produced before invading Iraq.

Such beliefs had little room for diplomacy, engagement abroad and treaties—hence the reaction to the Kyoto protocol and all those bits of paper about biological weapons, a comprehensive nuclear test ban and, horror of horrors, a world criminal court. They were also out of sympathy with “nation-building”—helping ravaged countries to get back, and stay, on their feet. And if this antagonised the rest of the world, well, too bad. The campaign remark about arrogance—“If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us. If we're a humble nation, but strong, they'll welcome us”—was one of the few that was forgotten, or at least reinterpreted.

The big surprise was that this view of the world survived September 11th, an event that would have caused even an experienced president to undertake a pretty radical rethink, and perhaps to reconsider attitudes to co-operation both with allies and with international organisations. But not the remarkably self-confident Mr Bush. “At some point we may be the only ones left,” he was to say. “That's OK with me. We are America.” September 11th had been the consequence of a lack of American resolve in the Clinton administration (perhaps even in his father's?), he believed; nation-states held the key to dealing with it, and all other countries were either with him or against him in the war against terror. Terrorism was, after all, an undifferentiated evil, and he was an instrument of providence, if not of God, destined to rid the world of it.

If anyone thinks Mr Bush is not responsible for foreign policy, whether the general approach to China or North Korea, the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq or the new American attitude toward Europe, they are wrong, argue Messrs Daalder and Lindsay. Mr Bush is in charge of the cabinet, and he has been ready to put down its supposedly dominating figures, sometimes in public, when he disagreed with them—Donald Rumsfeld on defence spending, Colin Powell on North Korea, Dick Cheney when he tried to displace Condoleezza Rice as head of an inter-agency committee. He is determined, and he means what he says (so pay attention when he emphasises freedom rather than democracy: the Iraqis may have to be satisfied with liberation).

But this determined, clear-eyed man is also pragmatic, and no slouch at politics, as his victory in Texas (never mind the presidential contest) made clear. So what does that mean for Iraq policy as the American election draws near? Among Mr Bush's advisers, the neoconservatives, whom the authors prefer to call democratic imperialists, will be arguing for more troops and money to democratise Iraq. The others, whom they call the assertive nationalists, will be arguing for a swift exit.

Mr Bush will have to make a choice. His born-again belief in his own mission to rid the world of terror and to spread the freedom that is, in his view, synonymous with America, suggests he will back the democratic imperialists. These are the people who want to remake the world, starting with the Middle East, in America's image. But Mr Bush's pragmatism, his desire to win re-election and his distaste for state-building all point to an attempt at early extrication from the Iraqi mess, so long as he cannot be accused of cutting and running—by either voters or historians. And, say the authors, Mr Bush is much more of a nationalist than a neocon.

How much of the Bush revolution will endure is not clear. The disdain for diplomacy and other foreign entanglements is already proving expensive, and at some stage the United States will surely want to engage with allies on more emollient terms. Meanwhile, the world had better get used to living with an audacious risk-taker, who, unlike his predecessor John Quincy Adams, is not afraid to sally forth in search of monsters to destroy.
America Unbound: The Bush Revolution in Foreign Policy.
By Ivo H. Daalder and James M. Lindsay.
Brookings Institution Press; 246 pages; $22.95
 
welsh said:
Back to Iraq.

Here is something from the Economist- an analysis of George Bush's revolution in Foreign Policy. Apparently, the argument goes, he's not an idiot, but very smart.

It's is "God given mission" that worries me.

Note, Sander's argument elsewhere that America is searching for enemies, might be unique to this president and his own sense of "global mission."


http://medlem.spray.se/james_bond/bondbrudar/18/bilder/thomsen_5.jpg

American foreign policy

In search of monsters
Dec 18th 2003
From The Economist print edition

America Unbound: The Bush Revolution in Foreign Policy
By Ivo H. Daalder and James M. Lindsay
Brookings Institution Press; 246 pages; $22.95

DON'T misunderestimate George Bush. That is the central message of “America Unbound”, an account of how, after a largely misspent youth, a callow man became at the age of 48 governor of Texas and then, just six years later, president of the United States—whereupon he turned America's foreign policy upside down.

Mr Bush is widely seen, abroad if not at home, as a bonehead with more brawn than brain who has little control over his administration, especially of the neoconservatives who seem to exert such influence within it. This view is rubbish, argue Ivo Daalder and James Lindsay, both scholars at American think-tanks. Mr Bush is his own man; he sees himself as the chief executive officer of a huge enterprise and acts accordingly; he has a world view and a clear idea of how America should fit into it; and he is no fool. Moreover, all of this could be detected from his conduct on the campaign trail. It is not the product of finding himself in the White House, still less of the events of September 11th 2001.

Trouble with grammar and a propensity to utter malapropisms have made people think Mr Bush is stupid. The evidence from his exam results suggests otherwise (he attended both Yale and Harvard, and his scores in the national scholastic aptitude tests were more than respectable). His all-too-evident ignorance, and his candid admissions of it, have made people think he has no convictions either. He might not know where Kosovo was, but, he said more revealingly, “I know what I believe in.” As the authors point out, most people do not form their views in the light of facts; indeed, the more facts they know, the less likely they are to hold simple convictions.

Funy thing I noticed, was that there was another person who was also seen as someone to be manipulated and ignored, yet proved that wrong. This person also had their own convictions on what their country should do.

welsh said:
The president was not a complete ignoramus: he knew where to look for help. Thus he plundered the address book of his Republican predecessors for the top members of his administration—not so much people from his father's day as from Gerald Ford's and Ronald Reagan's. Philosophically, George Bush junior is not his father's son but Mr Reagan's, and like the Gipper he too came to the presidency with priorities, even though he had to change them after September 11th. When he did so, however, it was not to abandon his former foreign-policy ideas but to direct them towards the single goal of fighting terror.

What were these beliefs? In short, they held that the world was a bad, dangerous place; that the nation-state was its most important constituent part; that power, especially military power, was the coin of the realm in such a world; that international organisations and treaties only constrained the use of American power; and that, uniquely among nations, America's interests and its ideals were at one. This was the altogether new element that Mr Bush brought to foreign policy—the conviction that America's motives were always pure and would be seen as such by others because it wanted only to spread freedom, prosperity and peace. It led easily on to what he was to term the “new doctrine called pre-emption” that he produced before invading Iraq.

There was another such person that held these beliefs. And this proves that this is not a new condition in forgien policy. In fact, it's been around for as long as I can remember.

welsh said:
Such beliefs had little room for diplomacy, engagement abroad and treaties—hence the reaction to the Kyoto protocol and all those bits of paper about biological weapons, a comprehensive nuclear test ban and, horror of horrors, a world criminal court. They were also out of sympathy with “nation-building”—helping ravaged countries to get back, and stay, on their feet. And if this antagonised the rest of the world, well, too bad. The campaign remark about arrogance--“If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us. If we're a humble nation, but strong, they'll welcome us"--was one of the few that was forgotten, or at least reinterpreted.

I could have sworn that I've heard this exact same thing before...

welsh said:
The big surprise was that this view of the world survived September 11th, an event that would have caused even an experienced president to undertake a pretty radical rethink, and perhaps to reconsider attitudes to co-operation both with allies and with international organisations. But not the remarkably self-confident Mr Bush. “At some point we may be the only ones left,” he was to say. “That's OK with me. We are America.” September 11th had been the consequence of a lack of American resolve in the Clinton administration (perhaps even in his father's?), he believed; nation-states held the key to dealing with it, and all other countries were either with him or against him in the war against terror. Terrorism was, after all, an undifferentiated evil, and he was an instrument of providence, if not of God, destined to rid the world of it.

There was someone else that though of themselves as the Divine Harbringer against an enroaching evil.

welsh said:
If anyone thinks Mr Bush is not responsible for foreign policy, whether the general approach to China or North Korea, the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq or the new American attitude toward Europe, they are wrong, argue Messrs Daalder and Lindsay. Mr Bush is in charge of the cabinet, and he has been ready to put down its supposedly dominating figures, sometimes in public, when he disagreed with them—Donald Rumsfeld on defence spending, Colin Powell on North Korea, Dick Cheney when he tried to displace Condoleezza Rice as head of an inter-agency committee. He is determined, and he means what he says (so pay attention when he emphasises freedom rather than democracy: the Iraqis may have to be satisfied with liberation).

And this other person also held influence over thier subordinates; also had the will to carry out their mission; also placed emphasis on something other then democracy.

welsh said:
But this determined, clear-eyed man is also pragmatic, and no slouch at politics, as his victory in Texas (never mind the presidential contest) made clear. So what does that mean for Iraq policy as the American election draws near? Among Mr Bush's advisers, the neoconservatives, whom the authors prefer to call democratic imperialists, will be arguing for more troops and money to democratise Iraq. The others, whom they call the assertive nationalists, will be arguing for a swift exit.

Mr Bush will have to make a choice. His born-again belief in his own mission to rid the world of terror and to spread the freedom that is, in his view, synonymous with America, suggests he will back the democratic imperialists. These are the people who want to remake the world, starting with the Middle East, in America's image. But Mr Bush's pragmatism, his desire to win re-election and his distaste for state-building all point to an attempt at early extrication from the Iraqi mess, so long as he cannot be accused of cutting and running—by either voters or historians. And, say the authors, Mr Bush is much more of a nationalist than a neocon.

Bush has a mixed belief system of imperalism and nationalism. This other individual also had such beliefs.

welsh said:
How much of the Bush revolution will endure is not clear. The disdain for diplomacy and other foreign entanglements is already proving expensive, and at some stage the United States will surely want to engage with allies on more emollient terms. Meanwhile, the world had better get used to living with an audacious risk-taker, who, unlike his predecessor John Quincy Adams, is not afraid to sally forth in search of monsters to destroy.

"America for Americans"? I know I heard this sentiment before...

A search for enemies to destroy? Well, this mysterious individual I've mentioned before also had enemies that they persued, non-existant or no...

welsh said:
America Unbound: The Bush Revolution in Foreign Policy.
By Ivo H. Daalder and James M. Lindsay.
Brookings Institution Press; 246 pages; $22.95
 
Here is an update.

What do you think- is this really about preserving the US Dollar and Oil? Does that make the war more justified?

The Real Reasons Bush Went to War
By John Chapman
The Guardian U.K.

Wednesday 28 July 2004

WMD was the rationale for invading Iraq. But what was really driving the US were fears over oil and the future of the dollar.
There were only two credible reasons for invading Iraq: control over oil and preservation of the dollar as the world's reserve currency. Yet the government has kept silent on these factors, instead treating us to the intriguing distractions of the Hutton and Butler reports.

Butler's overall finding of a "group think" failure was pure charity. Absurdities like the 45-minute claim were adopted by high-level officials and ministers because those concerned recognised the substantial reason for war - oil. WMD provided only the bureaucratic argument: the real reason was that Iraq was swimming in oil.

Some may still believe the eve-of-war contention by Donald Rumsfeld that "We won't take forces and go around the world and try to take other people's oil ... That's not how democracies operate." Maybe others will go along with Blair's post-war contention: "There is no way whatsoever, if oil were the issue, that it would not have been infinitely easier to cut a deal with Saddam."

But senior civil servants are not so naive. On the eve of the Butler report, I attended the 40th anniversary of the Mandarins cricket club. I was taken aside by a knighted civil servant to discuss my contention in a Guardian article earlier this year that Sir Humphrey was no longer independent. I had then attacked the deceits in the WMD report, and this impressive official and I discussed the geopolitical issues of Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and US unwillingness to build nuclear power stations and curb petrol consumption, rather than go to war.

Saddam controlled a country at the centre of the Gulf, a region with a quarter of world oil production in 2003, and containing more than 60% of the world's known reserves. With 115bn barrels of oil reserves, and perhaps as much again in the 90% of the country not yet explored, Iraq has capacity second only to Saudi Arabia. The US, in contrast, is the world's largest net importer of oil. Last year the US Department of Energy forecast that imports will cover 70% of domestic demand by 2025.

By invading Iraq, Bush has taken over the Iraqi oil fields, and persuaded the UN to lift production limits imposed after the Kuwait war. Production may rise to 3m barrels a day by year end, about double 2002 levels. More oil should bring down Opec-led prices, and if Iraqi oil production rose to 6m barrels a day, Bush could even attack the Opec oil-pricing cartel.

Control over Iraqi oil should improve security of supplies to the US, and possibly the UK, with the development and exploration contracts between Saddam and China, France, India, Indonesia and Russia being set aside in favour of US and possibly British companies. And a US military presence in Iraq is an insurance policy against any extremists in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Overseeing Iraqi oil supplies, and maybe soon supplies from other Gulf countries, would enable the US to use oil as power. In 1990, the then oil man, Dick Cheney, wrote that: "Whoever controls the flow of Persian Gulf oil has a stranglehold not only on our economy but also on the other countries of the world as well."

In the 70s, the US agreed with Saudi Arabia that Opec oil should be traded in dollars. American governments have since been able to print dollars to cover huge trading deficits, with the further benefit of those dollars being placed in the US money markets. In return, the US allowed the Opec countries to operate a production and pricing cartel.

Over the past 15 years, the overall US deficit with the rest of the world has risen to $2,700bn - an abuse of its privileged currency position. Although about 80% of foreign exchange and half of world trade is in dollars, the euro provides a realistic alternative. Euro countries also have a bigger share of world trade, and of trade with Opec countries, than the US.

In 1999, Iran mooted pricing its oil in euros, and in late 2000 Saddam made the switch for Iraqi oil. In early 2002 Bush placed Iran and Iraq in the axis of evil. If the other Opec countries had followed Saddam's move to euros, the consequences for Bush could have been huge. Worldwide switches out of the dollar, on top of the already huge deficit, would have led to a plummeting dollar, a runaway from US markets and dramatic upheavals in the US.

Bush had many reasons to invade Iraq, but why did Blair join him? He might have squared his conscience by looking at UK oil prospects. In 1968, when North Sea oil was in its infancy, as private secretary to the minister of power I wrote a report on oil policy, advocating changes like the setting up of a British national oil company (as was done). My proposals found little favour with the BP/Shell-supporting officials, but Richard Marsh, the then minister, pressed them and the petroleum division was expanded into an operations division and a planning division.

Sadly, when I was promoted out of private office the free-trading petroleum officials conspired to block my posting to the planning division, where I would surely have advocated a prudent exploitation of North Sea resources to reduce our dependence on the likes of Iraq. UK North Sea oil output peaked in 1999, and has since fallen by one-sixth. Exports now barely cover imports, and we shall shortly be a net oil importer. Supporting Bush might have been justified on geo-strategic grounds.

Oil and the dollar were the real reasons for the attack on Iraq, with WMD as the public reason now exposed as woefully inadequate. Should we now look at Bush and Blair as brilliant strategists whose actions will improve the security of our oil supplies, or as international conmen? Should we support them if they sweep into Iran and perhaps Saudi Arabia, or should there be a regime change in the UK and US instead?

If the latter, we should follow that up by adopting the pious aims of UN oversight of world oil exploitation within a world energy plan, and the replacement of the dollar with a new reserve currency based on a basket of national currencies.
 
welsh said:
What do you think- is this really about preserving the US Dollar and Oil? Does that make the war more justified?
No, and here's why:
Article said:
US unwillingness to build nuclear power stations and curb petrol consumption, rather than go to war.
 
But more Nuclear Power Plants means more nuclear waste. Something we have problems getting rid of. What with all the environmental activists and whatnot.
 
The real question is how to eliminate oil. The reason why oil has entrnehced itself so deep in world economics is because its had a century to spread.

Lets say we have the fall of every major oil company in the world. The sheer loss of jobs would cause an economic nightmare worldwide. Also, anyone who had any business contracts with the now defunct companies whether directly or through subsidiaries would be shit out of luck.

So all of a sudden you have this domino affect going throughout the world causing who knows what sort of problems. The only way to permanently end the oil dependancy is if there was a gigantic oil crisis where people have no choice but to depend on an alternate fuel source.
 
It would also destroy our means of transportation. And really, the entire economy is dependant on people driving to work.
 
Bradylama said:
But more Nuclear Power Plants means more nuclear waste. Something we have problems getting rid of. What with all the environmental activists and whatnot.
Yep. Until nuclear fusion is "tamed", then nuclear power isn't really viable.
There are other alternatives tho'. Wind, solar, hydroelectric to name but three.
 
Yes, but those alternatives aren't economically viable. At the present, nuclear power is the most economically friendly. But unless we can find a safe way to get rid of waste, there really is no "alternative" to oil.

That doesn't necessarily mean that alternatives can't be developed, though.
 
We have the alternatives and they would be more economically efficient were oil not present as a major factor. But once again we go to my post above.
 
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