Why does the West Coast Brotherhood Exist?

[Atomkilla]

Why would the Vertibirds be fuelled with oil? Oil was used to create the polymers for the power armour but for a fuel source? I would have thought that they would have some rechargable fuel source just because it makes more sense. The Oil Rig has plenty of power, Oil is still precious.

Why would they leave? Most didn't have families at Navarro as the citizens were on the ENCLAVE, Navarro was a fairly recent base. If the Brotherhood, which has no seen method of social engineering, can still maintain a fanatical force in the face of adversity then I see no reason why the Enclave, which is typically a very patriotic regime with an odd exception, would just abandon all hope and leave. Nobody knew where it was and the fact that it survived for so long means that they had some method of self-sustainability; they would be like the Powder Gangers, staying together out of necessatity if not some actual goal.

Stanislao explained about the fuel.
My personal advice is not to take information from Fallout 3, especially those about Enclave as canon. Fallout 3 is a synonym for an illogicality at its best.

As for people in Navarro, it is true, there weren't many families there, but think about it like this.
You have lost your HQ from your radar, some report that they have seen something what seems to be a nuclear explosion from the high seas, a flash seen in the direction of your HQ (we can presume somebody had seen a flash and informed the mainland base), you have no or very little communication, and you will soon run out from fuel for your vehicles.
If those aren't reasons enough, some time later you get reports that massive army is coming your way, best case scenario - take the base, worst case scenario - annihilate the base.
Now tell me, in these conditions and circumstances, how patriotic you would be?

Hang on, I thought that we were talking about a war which occured long before the Mojave, has a date for the war been given? I thought it was in the 2250's... or was that Van Buren?

NCR-Brotherhood war had ended few years before the threat of the Legion arose, or at least the Mojave Chapter conflict ended at that time. As for the whole war itself, its exact length is unknown.
NCR still suffered from that war and suffered greatly, which is evident in how they got stretched thin in the Mojave, with more soldiers redirected to fight the Legion, and all those caravan routes, settlements and trading hubs being left without any protection.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Stanislao explained about the fuel.

As for people in Navarro, it is true, there weren't many families there, but think about it like this. You have lost your HQ from your radar, some report that they have seen something what seems to be a nuclear explosion from the high seas, a flash seen in the direction of your HQ (we can presume somebody had seen a flash and informed the mainland base), you have no or very little communication, and you will soon run out from fuel for your vehicles.

So did I, the Vertibird has now been established as a prototype vehicle due for deployment sometime in the 2080's, it is an advanced US military transport/gunship being built during a decade long war with the Chinese over dwindling oil; if domestic cars, however expensive, can run on Micro Fusion Cells then I see no reason why Vertibirds should run on oil; besides, there was no oil readily available in F3 and they somehow fielded more Vertibirds than ever.

If the Brotherhood can remain so dedicated facing their own destruction and even Enclave from Navarro, after the ENCLAVE was destroyed, can spend 25 years in a bunker in D.C. I see no reason why the Enclave at Navarro should just desert en masse; they have a perfectly self-sustaining, secret fortress, loyalties to their friends and zero knowledge of anything in the outside world (which they all thought was mostly uninhabitable anyway, even President Richardson believes this incorrect fact, see his quotes).

Besides, this is not what I was really intending. I really wanted to know people's opinions on how the Brotherhood has maintained a large amount of sociatal stability without any definable long-term goal, with little personal incentive and no known means of social engineering; they just remain loyal without any real incentive and are even willing, by 2281, to die for a seemingly un-winnable fight.

My personal advice is not to take information from Fallout 3, especially those about Enclave as canon. Fallout 3 is a synonym for an illogicality at its best.

You're telling me, but unfortunately it is. It will be refered to as such whever it is next refered to in-game; it happened. At the start of 'Take it Back' those three Vertbirds coming in from behind Optimus Prime didn't chose that moment to unload missiles into it's very weakly armoured thighs and exposed cables; they instead flew past except for one which then slowly hovered in front of it to get killed. I really hate that game for what it did to the Enclave, even it is was what, unfortunately, first attracted my attention to the Fallout series; at least you don't have that shame (or do you?).

I have tried as hard as anyone to make sense of some aspects of the Enclave in F3 (I always call it 'F' and never Fallout), with success in some areas and none in others. I mostly relegate myself to trying to defend the justification (or at least their justification) of the Fallout 2 Enclave to the majority of clueless dicks on the Bethesda Forums.

 

[Atomkilla]

I don't know how to exactly put it. Let me try.

This discussion isn't going anywhere as long as you take information from Fallout 3 as granted. It is a stupid game with million idiotic solutions which main engine run on fuel called "cool is good".
As such game, it should not be taken as serious or canonical one, as it contradicts older games immensely. It would be all right (and justified) if Bethesda made few mistakes unintentionally (after all, Black Isle did that too in Fallout 2), but they intentionally ruined the game canon for their own purposes, and made a copy/paste story from earlier titles with its cardboard characters, thus ruining the immense potential of that game.
I'm sorry, but if you take stuff from such game as granted, then this discussion has no point. Imaginary solutions from 3 just aren't viable enough when you look at the big picture.


On the side note, you can say I was brought to the series by Fallout 3. To be precise, I played Fallout first years before, but only for the short time. 3 brought me back to the series, and after finishing all Fallout RPGs so far, I cannot take that game as canon, as much as I want to.
Don't take my wrong, I liked some stuff in that game, and some I like still, but the problem is it contradicts a lot of older canon, so in that context, I take information from Fallout 3 as canon as long as that information does not oppose that from earlier titles.
Unfortunately, Enclave dives deeply into that category...

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

If the Brotherhood can remain so dedicated facing their own destruction and even Enclave from Navarro, after the ENCLAVE was destroyed, can spend 25 years in a bunker in D.C. I see no reason why the Enclave at Navarro should just desert en masse; they have a perfectly self-sustaining, secret fortress, loyalties to their friends and zero knowledge of anything in the outside world (which they all thought was mostly uninhabitable anyway, even President Richardson believes this incorrect fact, see his quotes).

I...don't think they were self-sustaining. They weren't producing anything. They were a station post, their supplies came from the Oil Rig or from New Reno. They hadn't the means to sustain a long siege or battle.

Also IIRC a part of the personel was composed of mainland inhabitants (yes, "mutants") or at least the fact that you can enter the base from the main gate as a new recruit makes me think that. So even the part regarding loyalty to the organization isn't set in stone.

I really wanted to know people's opinions on how the Brotherhood has maintained a large amount of sociatal stability without any definable long-term goal, with little personal incentive and no known means of social engineering; they just remain loyal without any real incentive and are even willing, by 2281, to die for a seemingly un-winnable fight.

The same way the Enclave did: mental conditioning of the worst kind. It's clear when you progress with "I could make you care" when a bunch of BoS paladins are willing to kill Veronica just because she dared to question their cause and code.

 

[The Enclave 86]

I...don't think they were self-sustaining. They weren't producing anything. They were a station post, their supplies came from the Oil Rig or from New Reno. They hadn't the means to sustain a long siege or battle.

Except that Arcade Gannon was born in 2246 and even has some childhood memories of the place, so that could be what, 2249/50 when it was captured?

Also IIRC a part of the personel was composed of mainland inhabitants (yes, "mutants") or at least the fact that you can enter the base from the main gate as a new recruit makes me think that. So even the part regarding loyalty to the organization isn't set in stone.

Not really, it's just a cheap way of getting into the base. They don't recruit anyone from outside of the organisation; Chris though that you were a new recruit and let you in. It goes against the entire point of their organisation and everything said by everyone in it.

The same way the Enclave did: mental conditioning of the worst kind. It's clear when you progress with "I could make you care" when a bunch of BoS paladins are willing to kill Veronica just because she dared to question their cause and code.

That's my whole point, there is no mental conditioning the Brotherhood; they can even just leave when they become adults. Those BoS Paladins are just what I am talking about, having seemingly become more fanatic with little reason.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Except that Arcade Gannon was born in 2246 and even has some childhood memories of the place, so that could be what, 2249/50 when it was captured?

Good point.

Not really, it's just a cheap way of getting into the base. They don't recruit anyone from outside of the organisation; Chris though that you were a new recruit and let you in. It goes against the entire point of their organisation and everything said by everyone in it.

It doesn't make a lot of sense but that's what it looks like. I mean...a new recruit coming alone from the main gate even though the only way of transportation from the oil rig are the vertibirds?

That's my whole point, there is no mental conditioning the Brotherhood; they can even just leave when they become adults. Those BoS Paladins are just what I am talking about, having seemingly become more fanatic with little reason.

No, there is mental conditioning in the BoS. Since childhood the members of the BoS are brought up with a militaristic approach, they don't mix with the outside world, they have to follow a code, everyone (as shown by Veronica) thinks of the BoS as their own family. They can choose to leave if they want to, but they don't want and don't care because since birth they have known only that life and they are perfectly fine with it. The BoS is just like the Enclave in this, maybe even worse.

 

[The Enclave 86]

It doesn't make a lot of sense but that's what it looks like. I mean...a new recruit coming alone from the main gate even though the only way of transportation from the oil rig are the vertibirds?

Your damn right it doesn't, I just ignore it along with another quote which I find impossibly out-of-character.

No, there is mental conditioning in the BoS. Since childhood the members of the BoS are brought up with a militaristic approach, they don't mix with the outside world, they have to follow a code, everyone (as shown by Veronica) thinks of the BoS as their own family. They can choose to leave if they want to, but they don't want and don't care because since birth they have known only that life and they are perfectly fine with it. The BoS is just like the Enclave in this, maybe even worse.

True, but I wouldn't call them worse than the Enclave in this regard. The Enclave doesn't have such luxuries as being offered a chance to leave and to those of the ENCLAVE I would imagine it more of a punchline than a serious suggestion.

 

[Tagaziel]

At any rate, one crucial point is missing here: the Enclave is a secular regime, while the Brotherhood of Steel is a techno-religious military order, for whom technology is god and Roger Maxson its prophet. The zeal in Brotherhood members doesn't come from indoctrination a'la the Enclave - it comes from faith.

And we all know that faith is far stronger bondage than ideology.

 

[Ah-Teen]

I remember that in Fallout that the brotherhood's goal wasn't simply to hoard technology, but to slowly reintroduce it. They even said that they trade tech for supplies.

.

{194}{Cab_40}{Why do I let 'em in? Well . . . we have to get our food and other things. We trade our weapons for all that.}

{217}{}{, it is time you wore your own suit of Power Armor. This is a very special privilege for one so new to our order. Wear our Power Armor as a symbol of hope as you walk the wasteland, for someday when the world is ready we will surface and restore our battered Earth. Congratulations, you have made us all very proud. I'll send Michael the authorization.}

But in two it seems like they're running out of tech to salvage and they're moving behind the scenes. They seem to fill in a roll like the rangers on Babylon 5, with eyes and ears everywhere, working toward their noble goals in secret and possibly trying to create a society that is worthy of technology again.

After their defeat by the NCR is when they seem to become completely introverted.

By NV they will not share their tech. They aren't even really anywhere except their bunker

They've changed their goals. At first they were simply trying to keep technology from the wrong hands. They were raising an army to defend against the threat from the master and actively participating against the enclave. After they were defeated by the NCR is when they truly became xenophobic and distorted their own faith. Instead of wanting to rebuild the world, they focused blindly on keeping tech safe.

 

[Quagmire69]

I remember that in Fallout that the brotherhood's goal wasn't simply to hoard technology, but to slowly reintroduce it. They even said that they trade tech for supplies.

True, the whole stuff about them hoarding it too "protect people from themselves" crap was added in Vegas. The Brotherhood as defined in earlier games was "the protection of humanities progress", meaning that they still believed technology was important, just not too be wasted on unwashed tribal. After the appearance of the Master they added the killing of genetic divergent's too their list, even sending and army too the Midwest too finish off the mutant threat. Its unknown though whether they carried that out our went native. Somehow I know they went for it, just feels right somehow.

 

[Dalex]

True, the whole stuff about them hoarding it too "protect people from themselves" crap was added in Vegas.

Well I too dont recall anything about protecting people from technology from earlier games.
Maybe it was the war with the NCR what changed them.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Well I too dont recall anything about protecting people from technology from earlier games.

"Slowly reintroducing it" could be seen as that, though. Maybe with time they decided the people couldn't be trusted with such dangerous tech and changed their goal.

 

[White Knight]

I am sure the Brotherhood of Steel page on the Vault has a section from Van Buren saying that Jeremy Maxson took a more forceful approach to the Brotherhoods Cause, by taking tech from other people because he didn't see them as worthy of it. The article also says that this caused the NCR-BoS war. Its VB but some of it does seem to have been added to NV.

By 2231, Jeremy Maxson had assumed the position of Brotherhood High Elder. In addition to wanting to expand Brotherhood operations eastward, he was much more aggressive in his "hoarding" of pre-war technology. He wanted to restore the power of the Brotherhood by wresting all advanced tech from the hands of "lesser people" by any means necessary. Naturally, this led to disputes with the NCR, which had always been in favor of using advanced technology for the benefit of society (at least according to Thomas Moore, an NCR citizen, which is what he saw as the NCR's justification for trying to annex Vault City). Shortly after the destruction of the Enclave, a war broke out between the Brotherhood and the NCR.

 

[Quagmire69]

They got alot of things right when they made vegas, but not the brotherhood. After playing dead money with father elijah wanting to use red cloud to kill everyone one it begs the question. To what end? I mean I know they hate the NCR, but what do they actually want for humanity?

 

[Courier]

Elijah didn't want to use the cloud to kill people, he wanted to use it to preserve pre-war technology.

 

[Tagaziel]

And kill people he didn't like.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Elijah didn't want to use the cloud to kill people, he wanted to use it to preserve pre-war technology.

By which he means killing all of the 'foolish' hands of the wastelanders he thinks will damage them.

 

[Quagmire69]

Elijah didn't want to use the cloud to kill people, he wanted to use it to preserve pre-war technology.

I still never got the why part of what the brotherhood did. What werre they planning of using the tech for, or were they just planning of sitting on it for the next three hundred years.

 

[Courier]

They were trying to keep it out of the hands of people like Elijah, who would use it for their own means.

They were also keeping it safe so that when society began to rebuild, there would still be pre-war technology that wasn't destroyed or forgotten.

 

[The Enclave 86]

They were trying to keep it out of the hands of people like Elijah, who would use it for their own means.

They were also keeping it safe so that when society began to rebuild, there would still be pre-war technology that wasn't destroyed or forgotten.

Were being the operative word.