Why does the West Coast Brotherhood Exist?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by The Enclave 86, Apr 30, 2011.

  1. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    By which I mean, what exactly is their long term goal as the primitive society that they are? Why is their such an almost unanimously help opinion against change.

    People in the Brotherhood aren't brainwashed but given the option to leave when they come of age, most don't understandably, because, in any event, it's all that they have known, family ties etc. But why, when their old ways have achieved little, do they oppose it so much; I understand that we know little on the details of this Brotherhood-NCR conflict but I would imagine that the NCR are winning through sheer force of numbers like at Helios, hell they even defeated the Enclave at Navarro.

    What has the West Coast BoS actually achieved? All they do is collect military technology right? What do they do with it all a the end of the day and what is the over-arching purpose? I read somewhere that it's original purpose was protecting people from themselves by taking all of the advanced technology but I cannot find that again. In any event it's clear that the NCR is doing pretty well for itself and that humanity doesn't need any such policing.

    So is that all they do? Scavange and store? I just don't understand how the Brotherhood can have one short-term goal defining it's entire existance and yet the predominant opinion being that change is bad. The Brotherhood are willing to die and self-destruct their own in face of capture for the Codex and the Brotherhood, for what? Some great vault of technology beneath Lost Hills just sitting there? In one of the New Vegas endings where the local chapter establishes peace with the NCR they then take all of the salvaged power armour and patrol the roads taking what they please? Why is the question I am asking, just what is the damn point? What do the BoS look forward to in the future and intend to acomplish by their actions? The NCR, Legion, Enclave, whatever, all do what they do for territory, resources (to actually use unlike the BoS) & just a better quality of life from the spoils; yet the Brotherhood appear to be comftable just coming back to a bed and a locker, thinking what good work they've done for securing some plasma rifles and go to sleep to do it all again tomorrow.
     
  2. vanzizzle

    vanzizzle It Wandered In From the Wastes

    103
    Feb 15, 2010
    Well I'd rather have the security of power armour(as it's described) than to join a mass of cowboys.. Even if you're not getting territory. Because the Brotherhood had an outpost on Shady Sands. By this I mean that territory for them is obsolete. Because they have free passage almost anywhere anuway. Territory ald comes with a high upkeep.

    And I would doubt that anyone other than supermutants or the Enclave would fuck with them. As for the hoarding... Maybe they're all genetically predisposed to be OCD at hoarding?
     
  3. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Alpharius oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    Brotherhood is dying, parts of it already being dead, and I believe that most of them (at least senior members) realize it. However, 200 years of collecting technology, warfare, history, exploration and exploitation is indeed a great feat that few have achieved. You can call it a tradition.

    Taken all that into account, and the fact that they know that their position under the sun has been jeopardized and taken long ago, BoS still can't afford themselves to just "quit". After all, NCR-BoS war lasted for several decades, and although NCR won due to their sheer numbers, BoS proved to be a though nut to crack. We don't have much information on that (aside from Mojave Chapter), but I believe it is highly plausible that some other Chapters of the BoS are still powerful. Not as powerful as they were before the war, of course, but still a force to be reckoned with, at least by most.

    BoS will eventually completely die out, if it hasn't already, but in which way they will disappear is debatable. However, we can be certain that they'll stay strong, or at least, as strong as they can be until the end. After all, there is one crucial thing most people forget.
    BoS was found mere days after the Great War, and at the time they appeared, society (or at least, what was left of it - almost nothing) was way different than that which exist 200 years later. Their peak of power has been, and past, but they still remain, which only proves how, to say at least, stubborn they are, and how much they hold to their own traditions, and existence before everything else. As such, stubborn, but blind to the world, BoS will remain for few more years, maybe a decade, but will disappear.

    As for their original goal, that is very debatable. One may say their goal is just an excuse for their technological supremacy, or that is because of their religion. Whatever the purpose, their goal has lost its point many, many decades ago. Now, their only goal is to survive as long as they can.
     
  4. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    I have been thinking that it would really be nice that in a new Fallout game the player gets the opportunity to find a Brotherhood Chapter that isn't merely surviving but also thriving as they either became less strict in the following of the Codex or just gave up on the parts that worked self destructive.

    BTW, not the damn 'white knights of the East Coast' mind you.

    Rather this BOS chapter has been allowing outside members to join which they found worthy of BOS membership, has active diplomatic relations with the largest settlements.

    Sells or introduces some of their more beneficial technologies into these settlements (perhaps having some trade agreements regarding any kind of mechanical industry).

    And next to preserving and study old Pre War technology also try to create more of their own, including stuff that has nothing to do with weapons or power generation.

    The player would be encountering a paladin from the West Coast who had instructions to locate this chapter and lead them back to the West, he and the Elders thinking that this chapter barely survived like several other chapters.
    Much to his shock he finds a Chapter that does really well and over the course of his personal quest he starts to wonder if he should restore contact between them and the Lost Hills bunker, believing that this Chapter might be the best hope for the BOS to survive in some capacity.


    In an alternate take the BOS had been disbanded long ago and the Elders choose to blow up themselves along with Lost Hills bunker rather than to let it fall in the hands of the NCR or anyone else.

    During the game the player meets individuals who have been studying the old BOS organization or are the children of former members who choose to begin a new life outside the organization when the end was near.

    Perhaps with info gathered from them and other sources the player discovers a long abandoned but still heavily trapped BOS bunker that once belonged to the local Chapter.

    Once having gained access and full control of the bunker the player could decide to restart the Brotherhood using information from the old data banks.
    The player could invite those who are interested in the BOS, the children of former members, and anyone else he/she thinks suitable to join the new BOS and be trained as Scribes, Knights or Paladins.

    This would not be a game demand but rather an optional quest, and would result in an ending in which the Brotherhood is reborn and like the earlier mentioned example becomes a major house of research, wisely staying out of the politics of the wasteland while training a new generation of scientists and technicians.

    Edit: grammar error; 'danks' instead of 'banks'.
     
  5. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Now that I think about it, isn't it more than likely that Lost Hills has been destroyed? It's location wasn't exactly a secret, even Hubites knew where abouts it was and seeing as how the NCR had decent relations for a time, isn't more than likely that they know where Lost Hills is and that it may already be lost to the Brotherhood's Self-Destruction policy?
     
  6. Cultness

    Cultness First time out of the vault

    19
    Apr 30, 2011
    Basically what Dutch Ghost said. But Atomkilla, I wouldn't say all of the BoS are dying out. The Midwest and Texas chapters kinda threw out the ideas that were crippling them, the most important one being not allowing new members, and thrived because of it.

    Its all about the people in the BoS. Some have kept the BoS under their pillow all of their life, and even with hard evidence, will refuse to give up the old ways. This is most apparent in Veronica's follower mission.

    All three of the pieces of technology that you showed McNamara basically says the world has passed you and moved on. I think alot of it has to do with their origins.

    They obviously originated(or from around that area) the Lost Hills bunker, which we know is the center of the BoS. Since FNV takes place after all of the other games, I would assume (just assuming here, don't take it for fact) that if they came from the Texas or Midwest, or even god forbid the DC chapter, their goals and ideas would have been much different.
     
  7. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Alpharius oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    Quite possible, though not necessary. What do we know about Lost Hills, really? Over 100 years have passed since Fallout Lost Hills, which could mean big changes for it.
    It could, overtime, be turned into quite a literal fortress, which is something Brotherhood is not incapable of.
    I like to think it still exists and is still the center of the Brotherhood, though everything is possible.

    Indeed, but the Brotherhood as a whole is dying out, their forces being decimated in the war, most of their technology taken away by NCR, their territories occupied.
    It is certainty that some Brotherhood chapters are thriving (that is, if you consider 3, Tactics, and that unfortunate occurrence known as Brotherhood of Steel canonical), but Brotherhood in general, its core parts, the Lost Hills Brotherhood is dying out, or is already dead.

    Dutch Ghost made an interesting proposition, that some part Brotherhood presses a restart button and becomes a new organization, with new ideology, that isn't so selective, xenophobic and so forth - but would that really be Brotherhood of Steel then?
     
  8. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Well the NCR found out about Navarro and destroyed that, I could see whomever was leading the NCR at the time would commit as many resources that were available to try and capture the treasure trove of loot that must be at Lost Hills; before it would then be self-destructed by the Brotherhood within.
     
  9. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    I did not mean it as a reset, more like the Brotherhood trying to re invent itself in a world where it no longer is powerful because of its cache of technology and weapons.

    The research house suggestion comes from the ending of Fallout 1.

    It would never be the original BOS anymore, but trying to maintain that kind of existence turned out to be flawed.
    The rest of humanity did not go extinct, and even with the BOS hoarding some of the best technology for themselves the rest of the wasteland did pretty well without, and even found sources other than the BOS.

    They are like a living relic that has outlived its original purpose, and rather than adapting they wanted to regain their former strength by taking away all advanced technology from 'lesser people'.

    Much good that did for them.
     
  10. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Alpharius oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    Situation with Navarro was different. Navarro was practically in a black out, Enclave's senior commanders dead, no back up from the out side, many deserting and running of into the wastes and so on.

    Lost Hills, on the other hand, if there was battle there at all, would be different.
    First, Lost Hills was still a bunker loaded with many advanced weapons - not as many as in Fallout, but still with a significant cache of high tech. Also, Lost Hills was, unlike Navarro, well supplied, their soldiers almost fanatical, with nowhere to desert.
    I'm not saying Navarro wasn't supplied well, but most of its resources came from the Oil Rig - on a contrary, Brotherhood had resources, and was probably prepared for a full-on siege.
    I'm not saying they would survive that siege (if there was any siege at all), but they would probably be a greater opponent than Navarro.

    In addition, NCR was during the war badly depleted. They won the war, but it was a Pyrrhic victory, with many soldiers dead, morale presumably low and with little resources left for combat. Brotherhood, on the other hand, went into retreat, with a lockdown probably ensuing. Although defeated, with a bulk of their forces dead, they retreated because they had seen their chances for victory were low. They went into their compounds, Lost Hills being among them, were they just went on turtling - securing their existence. And when man is with their back to the wall, everything can happen, and NCR knew that.
    So, NCR could in that situation attack the bunker, or collect the spoils of war on the surface, slowly returning to their territories in order for them to get back on their feet. They could attack the bunker later, but it's a question of how big interest would it be. After all, I don't see any reason why NCR would want to fight Brotherhood to the annihilation. Brotherhood is no longer a threat to NCR dominion in any way, and that treasure trove was very likely depleted during the war, or has already been taken by the NCR.

    As for the self-destruct option - it is highly possible, but don't you think that self-destruction of Brotherhood's HQ would probably mean the complete breakdown of the Brotherhood? It would be a significant event, which would probably cause to the fall out among the surviving chapters and their members, which would later turn them all into easy prey.
    I'm not saying it is impossible, but such event, practically a suicide of BoS top, would, and should be mentioned by McNamara, Elijah, Veronica or someone else in New Vegas. Since it wasn't, we can only debate what happened, or what could happen, at best.

    Okay, but still - would that re-invented Brotherhood really be Brotherhood of Steel?
    Since they would only keep the name of the faction, and presumably parts of the Codex, with all their traits, their tradition and their whole techno-religious way of life would they still be Brotherhood of Steel?
    I believe it would be more appropriate for them to take another name, to say that they have roots in original BoS and that sort of thing. Calling them BoS would not be correct since they aren't BoS, just like Shady Sands isn't Vault 15.
     
  11. Cultness

    Cultness First time out of the vault

    19
    Apr 30, 2011
    @Atomkilla

    The Brotherhood as a whole would not shut down if Lost Hills ended up being destroyed. I might be wrong on this one, but I'm sure all of the chapters other than the Mojave, have lost contact with the HQ. But even if they didn't, it wouldn't have such a grand effect on them.
     
  12. Dalex

    Dalex First time out of the vault

    51
    Mar 26, 2011
    Well I hope that The Dutch Ghost is right because the BOS is tradmark of Fallout, they are integral part of the FO world and represent many of it's conflicts.
    BTW I have my own theory or rather hypothesis about those "white knights" and I find it rather disturbing.
     
  13. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Enclave soldiers were still pretty better equipped, they still had Vertibirds, Advanced Power Armour and according to the Enclave Communications Officer (if you tell him Navarro has been destroyed) :

    "What are you talking about you're on the Coast you've got great defenses."

    I don't think that there would be any desertions either, why would they leave the Enclave behind when they would know nothing of the wastes? Especially given their track record as pretty loyal bastards, the Brotherhood in Hidden Valley don't desert, if anything some are even more over-zealous (those that attack the Followers in Veronica's quest) in the face of anhilation. Besides we know things weren't that bad because Arcade was born in 2246 and he even has some memories of Vertibirds, Energy Weapons en masse and even some of the things people said; that's at least, what, six/seven years? Sorry, back on track.

    Whilst I wouldn't disagree that the Brotherhood at Lost Hills will have been ready for a fight, at the end of the day the NCR can just field so much more stuff, and even if they do repel an attack or two, they can't move or hide Lost Hills and it would just be a countdown to the inevitable.

    My point is that if the location of Lost Hills is known then why stay there? Even defending it is just delaying the inevitable if it will eventually be over-run; the NCR have the luxury of being able to draw upon their massive population and just chip away at the Brotherhood over time.

    Lost Hills could contain the location of all of the Brotherhood chapters, the Brotherhood didn't fight a completly defensive war either, they attacked NCR gold reserves, hence why paper money has replaced the minted gold coins of Fallout 2. Why leave a thorn like that in your own side? I don't see how Lost Hills could still be anything other than a store of all of the Brotherhood's loot, power armour, energy weapons, infomation.

    Maybe it would, we don't know at this stage how independantly the chapters operate, then again we saw in Fallout 2 that they were maintaining minimalist outposts around northern California to attract less attention.

    Maybe Lost Hills did successfully repel an NCR attack and they then evacuated the base for the reasons I mentioned, with their non-existant recruiting pool they could only hold out for so long and the NCR would always know where to find them; I find that a likely scenario.
     
  14. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Alpharius oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    Source, please.
    I don't know about this, though it is possible. Would give a nice twist to the story.

    Maybe not a grand effect, but certainly an effect.
    Think of it: a place from where Brotherhood originates was destroyed. I doubt that wouldn't make a big entry in the Codex, and with the Brotherhood's fanatical behavior, none knows what could exactly happen.

    Not really. A game without them would do just fine. Very fine.
    They may be a trademark, as you say, they be iconic, but they aren't essential. BoS is now a mere relic, a shadow of what it once was. Unless something radical happens, they will eventually disappear, and their another intrusion to the whole story, being powerful again without a proper (logical) explanation could pose a great threat to the canon.

    They had Vertibirds, but not enough fuel to mount a whole air assault on NCR forces, since most of the fuel came from the rig.

    As for the desertions - why wouldn't they leave Enclave? Many people had families in the Navarro, and many of them didn't want to see them dying to the NCR, so they fled to the wastes. At least there they had a chance for freedom.


    Why not just "stay there"? BoS is no longer a threat, or at least not a major one, and NCR certainly has bigger problems than beating up the dead horse.
    Even if Lost Hills contained locations of all Chapters, it is questionable how reliable that information is - many Chapters could have been destroyed already.
    Also, NCR probably knows where their Chapters are stationed, at least those Chapters that could pose a problem, such as Mojave, so I doubt they would organize a whole campaign just for something like that.
    Also, NCR doesn't have the luxury of being able to draw upon their massive population, as evident in their struggle against Legion.

    Maybe. The whole self-destruct hypothesis is rather controversial,
    with many possible outcomes out of which each and every is highly debatable. That is what is certain, at least.
     
  15. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    I see them more as an optional faction like Mikael Grizzly has pointed out.
    Its fun that they are around but they are not a necessary part of the Fallout spirit.

    Still it did make me smile when I found those guys in Fallout New Vegas.

    Based on other responses I guess the Brotherhood of Steel should eventually disappear from Fallout and perhaps another high tech organization appear that plays a somewhat similar role.
     
  16. Dalex

    Dalex First time out of the vault

    51
    Mar 26, 2011
    Im pretty sure they'll evolve in some way, if not the main body of the faction then some isolated chapter.
    And even if that doesn't happen then we still have the ehh east coast BOS :puke:
     
  17. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Alpharius oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    Hardly. Nature's way is that the best adapted survive. BoS isn't well adapted and it can't adapt well.
    One way or another, they will disappear, including the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood.
     
  18. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Why would the Vertibirds be fuelled with oil? Oil was used to create the polymers for the power armour but for a fuel source? I would have thought that they would have some rechargable fuel source just because it makes more sense. The Oil Rig has plenty of power, Oil is still precious.

    Why would they leave? Most didn't have families at Navarro as the citizens were on the ENCLAVE, Navarro was a fairly recent base. If the Brotherhood, which has no seen method of social engineering, can still maintain a fanatical force in the face of adversity then I see no reason why the Enclave, which is typically a very patriotic regime with an odd exception, would just abandon all hope and leave. Nobody knew where it was and the fact that it survived for so long means that they had some method of self-sustainability; they would be like the Powder Gangers, staying together out of necessatity if not some actual goal.

    Hang on, I thought that we were talking about a war which occured long before the Mojave, has a date for the war been given? I thought it was in the 2250's... or was that Van Buren?
     
  19. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Why would they need refueling posts like Navarro or the Remnants bunker if they were powered with fusion batteries or worked with reactors?

    In Fallout 3 they explode like the wrecked cars IIRC but...well...Fallout 3...
     
  20. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Recharging? Well in F3 they have no plausable source of oil, so that's why I assumed that if domestic cars ran on Micro Fusion Cells, an advanced military aircraft during a global energy crisis over oil would to.