World of fallout, is it possible?
- Thread starter Gekko
- Start date
Hey people lets all remove our 21century Earth game from the hard disk. 
Let's do it "the movie way":
/console
Logged in / user Gekko
WELCOME GEKKO, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO TODAY? PERHAPS A GAME OF CHESS?
No thanks. Not today.. and please, don't try, Im not in the mood of playing global domination either. Just take this command: "hack into all nuclear missile silos in the world"
COMPUTING.. PLEASE WAIT..
HACKED! WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
Command: Launch all missiles to space
COMPUTING.. PLEASE WAIT..
LAUNCHED! WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
Command: log out from my beautiful 3d interface.
COMPUTING.. PLEASE WAIT..
LOGGED OUT! (now you see a wonderful 3d animation). THANK YOU AND HAVE A NICE DAY!
/console
Logged in / user Gekko
WELCOME GEKKO, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO TODAY? PERHAPS A GAME OF CHESS?
No thanks. Not today.. and please, don't try, Im not in the mood of playing global domination either. Just take this command: "hack into all nuclear missile silos in the world"
COMPUTING.. PLEASE WAIT..
HACKED! WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
Command: Launch all missiles to space
COMPUTING.. PLEASE WAIT..
LAUNCHED! WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
Command: log out from my beautiful 3d interface.
COMPUTING.. PLEASE WAIT..
LOGGED OUT! (now you see a wonderful 3d animation). THANK YOU AND HAVE A NICE DAY!
MazeMouse
First time out of the vault
Or just go to 'shell' and rape them out of the 'water-car' patent so we could finally get our cars which run on good old H2O (hell I even have drawn a picture of a possible closed system which would never ever have to refill once you've filled it. Hmmmz, maybe I should find out more about this and try to patent itTemo said:
)EDIT:
As for fusion-power
Wind+water+solar power could go a REALLY long way...
And solar-power is more like 'light' power in which a 'fotoncell' only needs light to charge (the brighter the light, the bigger the charge)
Just make it more efficient and we'll never need fusion.
Wind-power: Now there is never a shortage of wind. More effecient dynamo's and it can really get things blowing :p
And water power: Just see the closed system of a water-engine.
use a little bit of electricity to get the electrolyse (sp?) going.
Then 'burn' the 2xH2 + O2 back into H2O again and then use the H2O you just (re)created again in the electrolyse process again. The only thing you would need is and airtight system which would only contain H2 and O2 because otherwise you'd still get the CO- and CO2 exhaust.
MazeMouse
First time out of the vault
The 'explosion' of burning the H2 would off course be used to drive a piston shaft.Big_T_UK said:
So to at least a (very very very very) big extent you would be able to reuse the 'exhaust' indefenitly because with an airtight system the only thing you would get from burning H2 would be H2O.
And what would be our fuel? H2O
So....
In goes H2O and out goes H2O.... making the circle quite easy.
The only 'external' input would be the fotocells (or any other means of generating electricity for the electrolyse) and the external output would be what you would use the H2 burning for. IN this case that would be using the 'explosion' to drive pistons (just like petrol does) and while doing that regaining your fuel.
So the fotocell is your actual fuel input (which can be 'free' since we could just use our sun to charge that) and the output would be the movement.
So in theory it is possible to have such a closed (pure) H2O system.
Expecially since you need only minimal H2 for quite a bang (we did this in sience class with a balloon which was quite a sight. I can't immagine the force of that simple combustion when it would be under pressure)
EDIT: and with pure I meant "closed of" system.
Ergo the only input from outside would be the electricity and the only output would be the driving of the pistons+driveshaft.
Come to think of it, wat would the efficiency from such a device be? Quite high considering the effort needed to get the input electricity (near to zero) and the high output of an H2 explosion
Ah, this explains it.MazeMouse said:
That would not really be water powered. It would just be a very complicated photocell. The energy that you would get from the explosion of the hydrogen & oxygen would be the same as the energy needed to split them, so there'd be no net gain. You'd be better off using a standard photocell
EDIT - To be a bit more technichal, here's the chemical formulae. (I had to look these up, 's been a while since I did A-Level Chemistry at school)
Splitting H2O into H2 and O2:
2H2O -> 2H2 + O2, Δ G = +118 kcal.
Re-Combining the H2 & O2 into H2O:
2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O, Δ G = -118 kcal.
Explanation: The change in energy in the closed system is Δ G (delta G), if the number is positive, this means there is more energy locked up in the molecules after the reaction. Therefore you have to put energy into the system for the reaction to be possible. To split 2 moles of water, you need to put in 118 kCalories of energy (in this case electrical energy in the electrolysis tank). Conversely, the energy (kinetic in this case from the explosion) released by 2 moles of diHydrogen burning in 1 mole of diOxygen is 118 kCal.
So, even if you could "harvest" all the energy from the explosion (a 100% efficient process, and practically impossible), then you would still only have the energy taken in by the photocel to show for it, so you may as well not bother with the electrolysis/explosion reactions.
Big T - Tagged "Science" during character creation.
MazeMouse
First time out of the vault
Then I wonder how the 'ghell' they did it in any other way.Big_T_UK said:Ah, this explains it.MazeMouse said:
That would not really be water powered. It would just be a very complicated photocell. The energy that you would get from the explosion of the hydrogen & oxygen would be the same as the energy needed to split them, so there'd be no net gain. You'd be better off using a standard photocell
EDIT - To be a bit more technichal, here's the chemical formulae. (I had to look these up, 's been a while since I did A-Level Chemistry at school)
Splitting H2O into H2 and O2:
2H2O -> 2H2 + O2, Δ G = +118 kcal.
Re-Combining the H2 & O2 into H2O:
2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O, Δ G = -118 kcal.
Explanation: The change in energy in the closed system is Δ G (delta G), if the number is positive, this means there is more energy locked up in the molecules after the reaction. Therefore you have to put energy into the system for the reaction to be possible. To split 2 moles of water, you need to put in 118 kCalories of energy (in this case electrical energy in the electrolysis tank). Conversely, the energy (kinetic in this case from the explosion) released by 2 moles of diHydrogen burning in 1 mole of diOxygen is 118 kCal.
So, even if you could "harvest" all the energy from the explosion (a 100% efficient process, and practically impossible), then you would still only have the energy taken in by the photocel to show for it, so you may as well not bother with the electrolysis/explosion reactions.
Big T - Tagged "Science" during character creation.
Thermolyse of water would only be possible at extremely high temperatures.
Electrolysis is as you say it quite 'useless'
Any other way of getting water 'split' in an efficient manner?
Because I know the water engine works with the burning of H2 and it is fueled with normal H2O. I don't know the exact details. (we could ask shell if we could see what system they actually have patented)
Maybe still they use the system I explained because the effeciency of burning H2 is still higher than any form of electrical engine. (I don't know how much 'HP' a normal Electro-engine would produce when provided with a certain amount of energy put into it (and I don't know what the effeciency of such an engine is)
but I do know that building a system with near ideal conditions of burning H2 under high pressure will net a reasonably high efficiency.
So what would be more efficient? Using the fotocell to drive the electro-engine or using the fotocell to drive the 'waterpowered' engine?
Considering safety I would say the electro-engine. But somehow I get the feeling they don't get a really enormous efficiency rate from the fotocell-to-engine type seeing the maximum-speed in relation to the amount of fotocells used on the cars in that australian-race. (what's the name?)
MazeMouse gained Expert Excrement Expeditor perk
Maybe you can have a solar or wind powered electrical source to perform the electroysis on the water molecules?
Just because you don't "gain" any energy by splitting and recombining the water molecules doesn't mean that it is "useless". It is an excellent way of storing that energy.
Just because you don't "gain" any energy by splitting and recombining the water molecules doesn't mean that it is "useless". It is an excellent way of storing that energy.
MazeMouse
First time out of the vault
So what is the difference in effeciency and power between an electro-engine and a 'conventional' type of pistondriven engine?Big_T_UK said:
Saint_Proverbius
Vault Senior Citizen
Big_T_UK said:
Lisa, in this house, we obey the LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS!
Big_T_UK is correct, there is no such thing as a completely reversible process, which is what MazeMouse is talking about. He might as well be saying we can put four alternators on each wheel of an electric car and it'll drive forever. It's the same thing.
You're never going to get out all the energy of a system that you put in to it. You're always going to get less. That's just the way things are.
We're also not talking about a completely closed system here, because you want the axel of the car to turn a wheel, which pushes on the road, and so on. You're interacting with the outside environment. You are dumping work out of the system to get the thing to move.
Ozrat said:
Except it takes more energy to pry them apart than the molecules store.
MazeMouse said:
Do a google search for the term "carnot engine". 80% is the maximum efficiency a heat engine can have, and that's for a THEORHETICAL one. It can't exist outside of paper and imagination.
Electrical motors(motors is the correct term for electrical) have their own problems. They work by generating magnetic fields, which are energy fields that you'll never get that potential back from, ever. Most of that potential is lost, just like heat waste in a heat engine.
The important thing to remember about thermodynamics is:
- You can never win - You'll never get more energy out than you put in.
- You can't break even - Some energy will be lost to irreversibilities.
- You can't get out of the game - This has to do with irreversibilities and absolute zero, which is impossible to reach.
Now, have fun.
All we need are a few wormholes, harness them for energy. Anyone up for creating them? Or even really finding one...
At the very least, if you couldn't use them for anything else, they would make perfect disposal of nuclear waste. Assuming NIMBY in it's dim-witted way didn't protest against it and halt any action.
At the very least, if you couldn't use them for anything else, they would make perfect disposal of nuclear waste. Assuming NIMBY in it's dim-witted way didn't protest against it and halt any action.
Temo said:
Hydrogen powered cars are available right now. Infact, if you buy one in san francisco, you get X amount off in your taxes. Anyways, Fusion can only take place at millions of degrees centigrade, if you were trying to talk about "fission" than it is already invented. However, Its too dangerous and expensive to put into cars.
l0s7 4 lyf3
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I've actually done some research on the effects of radiation on humans for some work on my own mod, radiation doesn't acutally mutate anyone into the horrible beings they're portraid to be in movies and games. (i.e. ghouls). The only 'mutations' occuring as a result of radiation are just the body trying to adapt to the new enviroment. Unforunately for us our bodies can't adapt fast enough to deal with the loads of radiation being dosed out on us. So that's when we start getting radiation poisoning and diseases. Just allow a sufficient amount of time of living in shelter sufficiently far away and a world like fallout is entirely possible.
battlepoet
First time out of the vault
I'd think we're too far away from controlled, localized fusion reactors to realistically hope for atomic powered personal vehicles. The next 'leap' needs to be chemical, rather than atomic, I think. Then again, those 'leaps' have probably already been made and tidily filed away somewhere.
There are solar panels more than efficient enough to meet the average household power requirements (20 kwatt hours/day, right?) and don't cover acres and acres, but they cost more than a new car, usually. When I can pay under 100 bucks a month, vs. 10-15k for a panel, it's hard to think about conservation.
On a side note, I think those folks with real training for survival in the wild, or even hunters and farmers who are used to actually killing and dressing living creatures for food, would be better prepared and fare far better than gamers on average. :>
There are solar panels more than efficient enough to meet the average household power requirements (20 kwatt hours/day, right?) and don't cover acres and acres, but they cost more than a new car, usually. When I can pay under 100 bucks a month, vs. 10-15k for a panel, it's hard to think about conservation.
On a side note, I think those folks with real training for survival in the wild, or even hunters and farmers who are used to actually killing and dressing living creatures for food, would be better prepared and fare far better than gamers on average. :>
l0s7 4 lyf3
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Not EVERY mutation in fallout was a result of the FEV, such as the villagers in Arroyo. They had no exposure to the FEV their mutations were just a result of the background radiation in the enviroment.