Intelligent Deathclaws

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Norzan, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. coldroll

    coldroll Fuck Bethesda

    Jul 4, 2012
    Sounds awesome I'll have to try it on my next Fallout New Vegas playthrough.
     
  2. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    I used it one time a while back.

    Its...

    Its not amazing IMO.

    If anything its rather overpowered when he's all fed.

    The issue NV and 3 had, was that there was never any enemy cluster which was hard to defeat.

    I mean, there was stuff like the legendary deathclaw, or Overlords in 3, but no 'common' nasty enemy (also, 3's DLC enemies were bullshit).

    Goris, the deathclaw in Fallout 2, is about as nasty as a normal deathclaw (IIRC he does more damage than a 'tough' one, but is weaker in HP), but against enclave dudes he'll get his ass shredded in a couple of turns.

    In NV, a deathclaw is capable of taking out a ludicrous amount of enemies, as NPC's are really shortsighted.

    IIRC once you get the deathclaw companion to full size, he rapes everyone.
     
  3. Zerginfestor

    Zerginfestor dear god, the scrapping

    Apr 18, 2015
    some fantasy coming true, eh? :wiggle:

    as for Intelligent Deathclaws, I prefer the 'clever girl' approach. I mean some rare deathclaws having the evolutionary mutation of human speech/intelligence is great, but not every bipedal reptillian death machine should have it. Something like that is so extraordinary, it should be just that: Extraordinary. Hell, I was hoping Bethesda when the Fallout 4 trailers hit with the Deathclaws shown in action that they would ambush the player and use intelligence to trap them, such as one example of using the mimicry speech like a parrot, relaying "help me! Someone, help!", "oh god, no!", "AAAAHH!" and so on, all in a lower tone. Player travels into the area, such as an urban cul-de-sac or alleyway between business buildings...only to find there's nothing there but some bones, while the Deathclaw (or worst, Deathclaws as three or more in a pack) is ever so slowly crawling down the walls, with the only warning sound being soft crumbling of bits of brick and rock falling before it lunges. Could even be useful in outer locations, like using the claws to burrow itself somewhat and cover it's remaining upper body in debris, branches and rocks to blend, and just give the camouflage multiple variations to make it harder for players to go "Ah, that's a trap".


    Instead, we get meatshields who are absolultely terrible at hunting or doing damage.
     
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  4. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    Well...I mean...On the plus side, reptiles aren't very well endowed.

    Now, a horse mutant, that would be something to be feared.

    Something which always bothered me with Deathclaws in the franchise, is that they're weirdly balanced.

    In Fallout 1, they were scary, but only if you were unprepared.

    A good character with a couple of companions, and an AR, or combat shotgun, could deal with them pretty easily, at least one at a time.

    Fallout 2, same deal, but now there's bulletsponge versions which come in packs of big and little ones...Scary, but only because the numbers are heavily in their favour, and stupid HP power creep.

    Fallout 3, stuipidhigh damage...But like the previous ones, they don't ignore DR...And DR is piss easy to get in Fallout 3, so they'll do like 15 damage per hit, which is mostly ignorable.

    NV, holy fuck I hate deathclaws, literally the only enemy in the game which I tend to cheese against with AMR's and gauss rifles, because these fuckers will basically kill you in 3 hits.

    4, MEAT SPONGES which somehow manhandle power armour...Right...

    As I understand it, Deathclaws are scary...If you're a fucking tribal armed with rocks and a pointy stick.

    IIRC the 'wounded/young' deathclaw in Fallout 1 killed at least one super mutant, and maybe the rest of the squad, but that makes little sense, mutants RAPE deathclaws, especially with thier miniguns.

    So really, balance for enemies should be somthing like Ghouls<Raiders<Mercs<Deathclaws<Mutants<Brotherhood<Enclave...
     
  5. Zerginfestor

    Zerginfestor dear god, the scrapping

    Apr 18, 2015

    Actually, Deathclaws were specifically designed to be literal walking tanks of anti-infantry firepower in close quarters combat, making them incredibly ideal in countering Power Armor (or any fucking idiot who thinks a concrete wall is going to stop those claws from smashing through and piercing right through them), though the technique in how they deal with PA users is a mystery. I have no idea if it's strength, Monomolecular claws that is basically "yeah, fuck you and everything you're wearing, bitch", pure strength, or a deadly mixture of both. If so, 3 and 4 make no sense to me on how Power Armor users tank so much against them. I mean for fucks sakes, the Power Fist was designed around Power Armor to already amplify the user's incredible strength to ridiculous heights, yet the usage of such a weapon in a battlefield is situational unless you're dealing with a fast, deadly close-range tank that has a chance of skeweringa power armor user into a "can of Tomato Soup, Chunky Version". Leads me to think the Power Fist was designed as a countermeasure against Deathclaws.
     
  6. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    Yeah, no.

    The current 'form' of deathclaw isn't even prewar, its postwar made by the master.

    The original form was less refined, and presumably less dangerous.

    The postwar versions have a damage of 19, which simply isn't enough to deal much damage to power armour, if at all.

    Deathclaws are wanked over in the newer games.

    In the older ones, they were 'elite mooks', not hellspawn which demolishes everything in their way.

    A mutant is beaten by a man in power armour, and mutants beat deathclaws.

    Simple as that.
     
  7. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    The only referenced encounter with a definitive outcome had the deathclaw annihiliate the super-mutant (and his buddies)

    Also, the only creatures implied to have been made by the master are the centaurs and floaters, not the deathclaws.
     
  8. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    Master didn't make the deathclaws, he simply refined them into what they are today, its stated as such in the Fallout 2 guide thingy (check the wiki reference).

    We know little of what happened with the 'Hub deathclaw incident'.

    There are multiple hatched eggs in the lair, and only one dead mutant.

    For all we know, they were ambushed by several deathclaws.

    They might not have had good weapons for a mutant scouting party.

    The deathclaw might have striked at night, under the cover of darkness, or when they were sleeping, etc.

    So many variables, but put a deathclaw against any mutant party ingame, and it'll get shredded in 1 or 2 rounds.
     
  9. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    Put them 1 vs 1, and the deathclaw will rip the mutie appart in no time.
     
  10. Lexx

    Lexx Background Radiant
    Moderator

    Apr 24, 2005
    Can't really argue this stuff, as super mutant and deathclaw stats in Fo1 are based on game (progress) balance and not some form of universal strength. :>
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Can't you just take the weakest mutant and weakest deathclaw and the strongest mutant and the strongest deathclaw each in 1 vs. 1and see how that goes?
     
  12. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    Most super-mutant weaponry (Fo1-Fo2) is based on heavy big guns with long reloading and area of damage (with dubious accuracy in game). The deathclaw is fast, precise and agile. It cans outrun and evade those attack, and quickly reach melee distance. Then, they have another advantage at melee, as they hit fast and strong and repeatedly. Once they had ripped the super-mutant first arm, it becomes even easier.
     
  13. Zerginfestor

    Zerginfestor dear god, the scrapping

    Apr 18, 2015
    are we seriously trying to compare stats in-game rather than lore? In Fallout Universe, Deathclaws surpass super mutants in every way, they bred before, they were made by the government to be shock-troopers of close range Infantry-killers, with already impressive armor and claws, which was then refined by the Master, to which surprisingly, the Deathclaw is the only FEV experiment that breeds not only successfully, but apparently rapidly as well. They were most likely designed to attack Power Armor folk in case China had something like that to counter the T-51 (they didn't, but hey, can't be too safe, right?), making them the best anti-infantry unit out there. After the refinement, they became even deadlier, to the point that in lore, even the fucking Brotherhood of Steel are cautious of the beasts. They outright fear them and surviving a battle with deathclaws with a team is usually considered lucky, unless they got the advantage of jumping the beast. It's obvious that whenever Deathclaws are reported in the area, they use the best, top-tier weapon they have in their arsenal and try to kill the thing from afar before it dashes in and rips them a new one (Which is odd, because you'd think they would have Power Fists just in case of a close-encounter).

    Even in Fallout 1 a Super Mutant was gravely wounded by a deathclaw, bleeding out, and the super mutant HAD the advantage of surprise...too bad he didn't realize in time that the thing he was stalking had more bite than he imagined.
     
  14. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    That's a cool amount of buzzwords, let me try.

    "In the Fallout universe, Super Mutants surpass Deathclaws in every way, they were created directly form the master which took years, and are supposed to be the next step of human evolution, to make the world unified. They have skin which can absorb and reflect gunfire, and is hard to tear by claws, stand nine feet tall, and can overpower power armoured enemies in pure strength and durability. They are the only FEV experiment which seems to have near biological immortality, as several are over 200 years old.


    Absolutely false.

    Deathclaws don't have armour piercing claws, they're just rather strong due to their size, and have sharp claws.

    They were never tested, and we don't quite know their purpose other than 'to fuck up china by letting them multiply and become an annoyance'.


    Since when? I don't remember that in Fallout 1, or 2.

    We still don't know anything about that battle, nor did the mutant have any explicit advantage.

    This is what the mutant says.

    "It was so fast... My brothers were gone... Could not help..."

    "We... We were scouting for primes... Came from... From the northwest."

    And the transmissions says.

    "Negative. Another clean sweep. Base, also tell Scavenger Team one that we've run across the same problem they had. One of our scouts did not return from his perimeter patrol. A few of our other scouts reported that there was something big and fast seen near our camp last night. I'll be checking it out personally at 0600 hours tomorrow morning. Over."

    So literally the deathclaw had the advantage every time, using stealth.
     
  15. Knight In Leather Armor

    Knight In Leather Armor HATE CHILDREN

    Feb 6, 2016
    I loved the whole idea of the big bad guys having friendly members. I also wished we had that for the Enclave and the Legion(though we do have Ulysses, but he's more against the Legion but loyal to it) because it helps humanize the faction(even if they're mutant lizards) and makes you feel for fighting them if you so choose.
     
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  16. Ranger117

    Ranger117 First time out of the vault

    Dec 31, 2016
    I have to stand with the pro-deathclaw community for this one, I am not a fan of the talking mole rat or the plant, that is stupid. But the deathclaws I like, their morality, their compassion and their kindness to say they were created for evil, fits in nice with the overall theme of the game. That also are involved in another quest, watching the Brahmin fir the NCR landowner, they appear in this quest line, to steal the Brahmin, Gurther later explains this was due to their sortage of food, he did not want to condone raids but saw no alternative, this was nice and was an aspect of raiders missing in the human raider groups, desperation over malice intent. I found the most annoying thing in fallout 2 was the super mutants, not Marcus, but the other two in broken hill. They were used as a 'were oppressed', rather than, we are a group of people that tried to change humanity, so friction is understandable, the guy killed twenty people and buried them in a swear, and he says its self defence, bull, he killed them. That was the most anti fallout moment to me in fallout two, and I wish that mutant could be punished, but he gets away with murder.
     
  17. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    From my perspective the intelligent Deathclaw in Fallout 2 is a welcomed contrast to the rest of the game. By then things within the game world itself were already getting pretty loopy with the inclusion of "xenomorph" like creatures, all the bizarre hijinks the player would encounter just wandering around, and the rest of the super silly encounters the player would stumble upon.

    However in all of those adventures humans are still framed as a plague on the world, still murdering each other, stealing, and all sorts of horrible junk. Then the player encounters intelligent Deathclaw smack dab in the middle of the main story line. Which I think actually fit with the basis of design.

    When this first happened to me it seemed like a moral barometer in contrast to how humans viewed the world. In the Vault they were discovered in they had begun the great adventure of life mostly aware of the mistakes humans had made. They positioned themselves at a secluded location, and did their best to remain isolated because they figured out that humans are bigots, and frightened easily. However instead of taking a page out of the BOS "how to dick over a wastelander book" they send the player on a relatively simple quest, instead of a horrible glowing hole in an effort to kill of the person who discovered their location.

    In every interaction with the player they maintained a peaceful approach, and did their best not to escalate force to warrant an attack against them. Even though they are living death machines, and upon first encounter are incredibly frightening to players since all other Deathclaws are murder machines. This puts the player in a unique position, to either size them up as a normal Deathclaw and attack or get close enough to initiate a conversation. However even as players interacted with them many found them to be horribly offensive just for existing. In that moment players could understand that they to are bigots in their own right and hopefully take a moment to self reflect on why they were offended by their presence.

    Even then due to their inherently weird nature of existing in the first place they are considered out of place by many players even when given an explainable origin. Which only reinforces their view of humans. Inclusions such as this were something that does not quite fit in the universe often test players to identify what it is they consider normal. For myself I got over the fact that the Fallout universe is full of interesting surprises, wacky nonsensical situations, and down right horrible people. But With the intelligent Deathclaw humans encounter an option to take moral inventory of their actions. The problem in this case that it was done so well that a lot of people just missed the point of it all.

    When I role play I play my character, I try to walk in their shoes, and I try to think like them. To understand a situation with a fresh perspective from what has shaped them already.
     
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  18. SquiglyContiello

    SquiglyContiello It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jan 3, 2018
    Didnt Goris appear in Fallout Nuka Break?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018