Moral Conundrum: Decapitate the Legion or not?

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by CT Phipps, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    Say what now? Could you elaborate on that point?
     
  2. CaptJ

    CaptJ The Rival of Roquefort Hall

    Jan 19, 2016
    Josh Sawyer had Gannon say that he is researching on making stimpaks with fruits except homemade stimpaks existed since FO2 and you even craft them in FO:NV. Sawyer made homemade stimpaks cause a PER penalty in his mod like other Healing Powder derivatives. I would prefer he that he take the Bitter Drink recipe as a solution giving some irony that a tribal solution was preferable.
     
  3. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    A bit hard to consider the Bitter Drink better since it takes time to heal while the Stims heal instantaneously and in Hardcore Mode they heal more than twice the HP per second :V.
    I do think that it is too easy to make Stimpacks in a workbench though. And agree that Arcade saying how improbable it is to make Stimpaks out of local ingredients even if we are crafting them in front of him is really a silly mistake from Obsidian. :lmao:
     
  4. CaptJ

    CaptJ The Rival of Roquefort Hall

    Jan 19, 2016
    It isn't about being better but being cheaper. I can't imagine syringes being too common or cheap. The people in Goodsprings craft healing powder, a tribal medicine introduced in FO2, showing that even civilized people can also learn something useful from tribals. With something like the Bitter Drink, the Followers of the Apocalypse can help more people by either making more medicine, saving resources, or teaching other to make medicine.
     
  5. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Well, the syringes are something that does not disappear after use. They can be reused (of course in the game we don't get a empty syringe after using a stimpak of super stimpak) so I can imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to have followers of the apocalypse setting empty syringes collection boxes or something in their camps. After all we have radaway, stimpaks and super stimpaks (which after used could have the syringes reused) and actual empty syringes around seem quite common just in the Mojave (there are a few locations where we get more than 20 empty syringes at once).
    If I can make a healing powder from the same ingredients as I can make a stimpak with just having a syringe too, then I assume I will always make a stimpak.
    If I run out of syringes then I would definitely make Bitter Drinks since it requires the same ingredients as a Stimpak but instead of a syringe it uses an empty SS bottle.

    Stimpaks do have advantages over Bitter Drinks outside of game mechanics if we think a bit though. For example you can apply it to someone that is unconscious or that can't swallow for some reason, you can also apply it to animals instead of trying to make the animal drink the Bitter Drink. Etc.

    I always thought that the way the game depicts healing items should be more differentiated. Healing Powder does give a penalty to perception, but then Bitter Drinks and Stimpaks are pretty much the same in Hardcore mode, only difference is that Stims heal faster but overall heals less HP than the Bitter Drinks.
    Stims should always be the best healing items since it was the peak of medical pre-war technology.
    We can use some kind of head canon to think that the stimpaks lost potency or something over the years I guess.
     
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  6. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jun 7, 2008
    I mean, this has been the question that the last 40,000 years of civilization has worked to answer. And we are unanimously moving towards more egalitarian societies compared to back then. A collective of all the philosophers of human history probably aren't totally off-base on this one.


    Those societies HAVE all collapsed (as all have or will, honestly). Dictatorships are the shortest lived of all, as they typically involve no reliable way of transferring power, nor do they have any defining characteristics other than the military might of their current leader. Any continuity in a nation between dictatorships is probably ethnic in nature. And when the leader's cultural background changes, massive purges and ethnic cleansing are often the result. Rome is far and away the longest lived example I can think of, yet even for hundreds of years before its final collapse, it was not politically or culturally stable. Its life as a dictatorship was maintained only by the constant influx of wealth and power, and even then there were civil wars and other nonsense every other year. Either someone was having his father murdered, or an army was sacking Rome yet again.

    As far as I can tell, the Legion is built around only two things. The cult of personality of Caesar himself, and the desire to destroy the enemies beyond their borders. These two things are not incidental traits, they're crucial to maintaining control over the populace. The military structure that suppresses them needs to be justified somehow. When Caesar dies, and/or when the Legion does not have an exterior threat to keep it at war, it will collapse. This is not a healthy state. The real-world examples it was modeled after were not healthy, either, and didn't last. [Despite Caesar's delusions of grandeur, I'd say the Legion's leadership has more in common with 20th century fascist states than with the Roman Empire.]

    As to comparing Caesar and Lanius, I'd say Caesar is more dangerous to the people already under control of the Legion, and Lanius is more dangerous to anyone in the West.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
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  7. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jun 7, 2008
    Seems like stimpacks might be better in a clinic setting. As you say, they're reusing needles. In a clinic, needles can be sterilized. Might be more difficult out in the desert. Also, if the total supply is limited, as there probably aren't many factories in the Mojave pumping out new plastic products, it'd be valuable for locals to know how to make bitter drink.
     
  8. Arnust

    Arnust Vault Senior Citizen

    Feb 2, 2016
    Of course, but dictatorships become something else. Be it a more advanced state of it (sci fi) or other kind of government. What CT means is that everyone will revert back into happy anarchism.
    Btw cool to have another resurrection LOL.
     
  9. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    All you need is a campfire to sterilize a needle, you can boil water and use the steam, dip the needle in it or place the needle near the flame until it gets hot enough. In addition you can also use an oven (there are plenty of ovens around, the problem would be finding one that works, although there seem to be some working in some places in FNV so it is not impossible), using rubbing alcohol takes around 20 seconds to sterilize (the followers of the apocalypse get a contract to be supplied with alcohol during the game for example), using drinking alcohol like vodka, gin, etc (needs around a full day immersed in it but it sterilizes), you can also use bleach or hydrogen peroxide takes around 20 seconds (I imagine those would be harder to come by).

    But yeah, just having a campfire is enough to sterilize a needle ;-).
     
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  10. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    I should point out CAESAR believes the Legion is unstable. He's trying to conquer NCR so he can effectively transform the Legion from being the Huns to a stable agrarian state.

    In effect, stealing NCR's positive qualities.

    I never said anarchism was happy. Of course, most anarchists aren't believers in eternal anarchic society but the idea of it as a transitional state. Anarchism should be used to tear down existing states to build up better ones.

    In the case of Fallout, I've postulated that small tribal based societies and city-states may be preferrable in the long-term (say the next thousand years or so) than trying to rebuild civilization while the world is still radioactive and mutated. Also, that they may be better lives than authoritarian military ones.

    I also am a Raider and enjoy stringing up the corpses of my enemies over my front door. Moira helps me re-decorate. Yes, I admit it, part of my support of Raiders is a CULTIVATED PERSONA.