So what lore has Bethesda done gone fucked up?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Mr Fish, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. mithrap

    mithrap Ring a ding-ding, baby

    May 17, 2016
    Well, the Mojave desert used to be quite secluded and isolated until 6-7 years before the events of New Vegas (when Mister House took control of the Strip, basically, if we are to believe the ghoul mercenary from Fort Mormont). No international power took interest in the land for a long time, so it kind of makes sense that the currency wasn't backed by a federal reserve until then. Wasn't populated or connected enough to form their own regional power. Under Mister House's dictatorship, however, it's possible that the Mojave will, in time, use its own currency. Until then, they were still the direct neighboors of the NCR, so the local currency simply exported there thanks to the water merchants, and simply never changed until now.

    Secondly, unlike Washington and Boston (which are built on a coast, hell, built on freaking swamps with clean ground waters), the Mojave is a desert. The original idea of the caps (one cap = one bottle of water) makes sense there, until comes a power who will shift the economical status and provide its own currency. Which is exactly what happens with the Legion's daenarii and the NCR printed dollars. So, they still use caps, sure, but at least there's a reason why.
    Finally, the game tells us many times that this currency is about to die out. The crimson caravan mentions how unstable it is, because of how easy it is to counterfeit caps, and the workers at the quary mines complain about the exchange rate, since they are paid with NCR paper money.

    Basically, this is what F4 should have done. I'm okay with people still using caps, but at least, the writers must explain why.
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  2. Lucas9

    Lucas9 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jan 16, 2016
    I could bet money on this being a retcon after the fact.

    Fact: Bethesda's leveled lists are crap. And they cause Jet to appear in places they shouldn't. Additionally, level designers manually placed Jet in places it shouldn't be in.
    Retcon: Bethesda officializes Jet as being Pre-War just to "fix" those mistakes. Instead of, you know, making leveled lists work better and taking its level designers for a lore class...

    Also, I really like how bottlecaps work in Fallout, being such a precious comodity that serves to level the bartering field. A shame the latter games placed emphasis on bottlecaps, so bartering was actually a thing that didn't really matter. Once again, Vicious Wastes proves awesome and makes caps much less common in merchants, meaning quite often you have to barter for items you need in exchange for ones you don't.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  3. FreedomStalker

    FreedomStalker Still Mildly Glowing

    Apr 22, 2016
    What if a lot of the bottle caps were destroyed in the war?
  4. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 26, 2007
    Why would that happen?

    *Who would have reason to put the effort into that, and/or how could that happen by mistake?
  5. lolpop109

    lolpop109 Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jul 14, 2016
    I think currency issues is that fact that some items are worth stupid amounts of caps. For example pre war money. How can this have such a high cap value in FO4 atleast can be used for cloth but that does't really explain its vaule at all. If you collect enough pre war money you can basically just trade with that witch seems quite silly. The amout of bottle caps you can collect can also be seems to get stupid such as guns costing like 7k caps. How would you carry that many? Maybe if there was some special cap that was worth more or something. However it still does work pretty well as a money system.

    I think the biggest problem with the caps system is that we have no clue how much caps people actually own and the value of it. for example mr house says hes spent millions of caps but how would that work. Also we have no clue what the average person would own and how much they would be worth. For example with people in rivet city what would be the average income ? That have to earn at least 50 caps a day to afford two meals and water. However this is mostly left ambiguous. Well also don't know much people make from there jobs for example how much would a caervan guard be paid a day ? If this was explained a bit more i think it would clear up the problem. Also there is some inconstancy in pricing between games. It cost 100 caps plus to stay at megaton hotel for one night where as in NV its like 25 caps for a room a night so it does' really make that much sence.

    I think overall if the average worth would be like 400 caps this would make sence. But i can't see how 'poor' wastelanders with less than that would survive at all. As the cost of food ect would be too much
  6. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Not to forget the Vault door, which as a protection makes now even less sense compared to the previous one which opend to the outside, where as the vault doors in Fallout 3 and 4 open to the inside.
  7. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 26, 2007
    ... And as such, are basically canons facing inward, should an atomic blast happen near the door.
  8. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015

    Perhaps, but there's a lot of caps in out-of-the-way towns and factories which wouldn't get targeted.
  9. Lucas9

    Lucas9 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jan 16, 2016
    This is something that didn't came to my mind until I started using Mass Recalibration in New Vegas. Caps gained weight, and soon I realized that carrying 20.000 caps in real life would be impossible. You would be literally dragging a bag of caps on the floor, getting shot at. And buying a weapon for 20.000 caps? That's impossible.

    Then you start thinking "how do they even count that crap?".

    Me: "Hey, nice gun."
    Vendor: "20.000 caps and it's yours."
    Me: *places huge bag of caps on the counter* "Here you go, take your time."

    We can imagine some sort of "cap counter" being created, much like those nice machines for counting bills. Still... 1.000 caps is the most one should pay for the most valuable item in the wasteland.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think FO3's and FO4's doors make sense. If something blocked the door, you wouldn't be able to open the door the outside in FO1 and 2.
  10. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    This is why bartering makes sense but pure cap prices don't.
  11. mithrap

    mithrap Ring a ding-ding, baby

    May 17, 2016
    Well, the initial value of a cap is well established : one cap = one bottle of water.
    At least, that was the case in the Hub, in California ; a arid, hot place. Makes sense for the western caps to have more value than the ones in a humid, coastline city built on a swamp... Yet, a bottle of water costs 20 caps in Boston, despite being widely available.
    Basically, there's not a single reflexion on the demand/supply of goods.

    The whole economy is fucked. Look, purchasing a house for life, free of rent and taxes, costs 2000 caps in Diamond City... Basically, 20 to 40 days of normal, farmer work! Then why are people in danger, outside ? Anyone can buy a house, given a little time of work, apparently. And if that means putting yourself in danger, don't worry : two to four days of work could buy a professional mercenary to follow you for life.
    Let's put this in perspective with the Slaver's guild, in Fallout 2, where Metzger pays each one of his thugs 800 caps (caps which have a higher value than the eastern ones) for a raid. Buys slaves for around 1000 caps, sells useless old slaves for the same price. For Metzger to make a profit and keep paying his goons, he'd have to sell his prime, young slaves around 4000-5000 caps per head. Which seems coherent, considering the currency value.

    In contrast, in Boston, where slaves are supposed to be a rare and expensive commodity (absence of slaver's force such as Metzger's or Caesar's, very few people but extremely dangerous roads), the Gunners buy a slave 100 caps. An IMMORTAL slave mind me -a young, running Ghoul capable of fighting- who doesn't need to drink, breathe, shit or eat, and will stay forever in his prime, 100 caps. 40 times cheaper than a regular, mortal slave who'd need to be fed... 40 times cheaper, IF the currency had the same value.

    We know the exchange rate :
    NCR : one bottle = one cap.
    Boston : one bottle = 20 caps.
    The exchange rate is 1/20.
    Let's do the math.
    An immortal slave is 800 times cheaper than a regular, mortal slave.

    Which makes zero sense. As soon as you look a bit closer, you realize that nothing makes sense. It's made up on the fly, with zero reflexion, and it holds together with duct tape. "It just works!"
    No shit. It just works until you look a bit closer.

    Yeah, yeah, we are not supposed to pay attention to details, blablabla. Enjoy this theme park from afar etc.
    The thing is : when anything is solid, and trustworthy, there's nobody to tell you "Don't look at that ! Don't look closer ! Just... stay away, enjoy the view". When it happens, this is precisely when you HAVE TO look closer, because there's something wrong and someone plays you for a fool. Can be applied to everything.
    • [Like] [Like] x 6
  12. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 26, 2007
    Against forced entry, a door that opens inward, is only as strong as the hinge and/or latch holding it shut. Doors that open outwards are are as strong as the door and the frame combined.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
    • [Like] [Like] x 6
  13. Operation Wignut

    Operation Wignut USSDF Riot Squad

    Jul 31, 2016
    Well, Vault 111 was buried underground, and the only access we find to it is the elevator, which is either a lower-able pillar of concrete, or a lower-able cylinder of metal, which is covered by what seems like another seal, similar to the actual vault door. That seems to be more than enough for the vault considering the Sole Survivor takes the blast wave before the elevator finishes lowering. Isn't being underground enough for the Vaults? I can't recall a single Vault in 4 that would be affected by the blast wave. (Then again, I haven't played much 4...)
  14. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    That coin is totally awesome! :clap:
  15. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    I'm with the bad taste one.
  16. lolpop109

    lolpop109 Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jul 14, 2016
    I mean having load of caps isn't really the problem though. I do think that prices should just be modified to make more sense in fo3 FNV and fo4. But i only really have the problem FO4 pricing as i seem to have over 80k and tons of stock i could potientaily sell. FNV i hored like hurdereds of thousands of caps. So yeah that seems pretty stupid however i guess this happens because it porbably a larger 'game' but just generally tends to have more vauleable stuff in it. Fo3 I found the most sence and I spent most of the game poor intill the end really when I only had 10k caps. But i dunno it depends though cuz imanged that FNV you suspose to have alot of caps if your actually ruing NV independently
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  17. Niobium Plasma

    Niobium Plasma First time out of the vault

    May 3, 2017

    One, its easier to perform maintenance with the door's mechanics on the inside, likewise, its not a good idea leaving your only exit's key components on the outside.

    Plus, if rubble slides in the door's way, your not gonna be able to get out.

    Plus I'm, pretty sure the the East Coast Vault-Doors are thicker than there counterparts in Nevada.
  18. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 26, 2007
    When a door opens inward, it's only as strong as the frame.
  19. peadar87

    peadar87 Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 4, 2015
    I'm guessing the Vaults would be kept at a positive pressure to prevent leakage of contaminated air from the outside in. With that in mind, the door seals would work better if the doors opened inwards, as the pressure would be pushing them outwards against the seals. You'd need to overdesign them against the blast wave of the initial explosion, but it's not a completely stupid concept for a door that's supposed to stay shut for hundreds of years, not just withstand the initial blast.
  20. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    But vault doors opened outwards, last time i checked.