Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Fins, Jan 5, 2018.

  1. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    "If you play shitty or incredibly outdated barely interactive and poorly designed games that are only engaging if you plan to boast about that non-achievement you're actually very very smart" - Fins

    For such an enlightened individual, you don't seem to keep an eye on more games than the ones for very very smart people. Out of your dumb argument, being able to go guns blazin' is not only the base of the genre, but also an incredibly cathartic factor of most action games. But the best designed ones will either subvert or exaltate them. Even CoD's infamous health regen, consolidated in the 4-5th console generation thanks to Halo's "Shield" mechanic, was a trade off to dying incredibly quick, with a very low average TTK, which made the game be defined as a "twitch shooter" which would have an offspring of the Counter Strike franchise and inspiring nuances for other subgenres like the Tactical/Squad shooter, and also an opposing force like sandbox/exploration like Crysis, Far Cry or even Just Cause, all with the hum of the oldschool trend with arena, swarm, puzzle shooters.

    Just for the last couple of years there's been a mainstream resurgence of the oldschool trend with modern reboots like Doom 2016, Wolfestein, Quake, Halo 5's multiplayer, REFLEX, LawBreakers, etcetera, along the more lenient to the tag of "imersive sim" with Bioshock, Dishonored, Prey, Lazarus Project, etcetera. There are more explicit retro ones like DUSK and STRAFE, too.

    I haven't even mentioned the more experimental ones, like SUPERHOT and the celebrated Portal. People with the same ideas and you but with the actual idea to make it real created games like STALKER, Metro, and tweaks to make other shooters via mods to become a lot less forgiving, IE Fallout NV's DUST and Fallout 4's FROST.
    I haven't even mentioned the more offshoot to it like the RPG-FPS, looter shooters and the more generalistic action games.

    I make my case. But really, why do we play games at all? lmao
  2. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht I guess you're through, huh? Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Well, I did enjoy "Firewatch" quite a bit, but I wouldn't call myself an intelligent person, either.
    And you know what? The hard games I enjoyed back then? I don't really enjoy them anymore. Gaming isn't that much fun to me anymore, I've got a job and way too many other hobbies that I enjoy more than video games.
    But I don't think games are getting "stupider" because people are getting stupider. Video games have come a long way since the 90s, and they're now a much larger mass market. Big titles have a lot of production money in them, so they need to sell a lot and appeal to a wide market. While the "hardcore" game market is certainly still a thing (see the recent trend of superhard games), those don't sell enough.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  3. SquiglyContiello

    SquiglyContiello Still Mildly Glowing

    Jan 3, 2018
    The real problem here is how it seems like you want gaming to appeal to you and your demographic. This is a problem I see with almost every community in gaming especially the action game fans who want gamers to "grow up" and play action games or anti-nintendo folk who want nintendo to die because they want more "adult games".
    In a way most of them act like SJWs, always wanting gaming to appeal to them and them alone.
    I know what you feel tho but its not the gamers fault.
    Gaming's problem is lack of diversity, AAA devs would just make the same kind of shooter, sandbox, and sports games just to make money off the largest demographic. 2007-2014 were the years where almost every game was a sandbox, cinematic shooter, or online only.
    But now thanks to indie gaming we manage to get different types of games.
    Such as roguelikes were you have to adapt to different tactics based on the items gained or cRPGs that manage to capture the essence of the classics.
    Even Immersive Sims and Metroidvanias managed to make a comeback.

    As for walking sims, Hassknecht likes them and he is pretty intelligent especially when compared to us.
    Different people play games for different reasons, just because you play them to be intellectually challenged doesnt mean that others play games for that too.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  4. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    I wouldn't say that "superhard" games are the actually hardcore. Well, Fins might agree with that but considering his shallow judgement on design. The actually well designed ones will only be so in the surface.

    A "hardcore" in the sense of appealing to an EXTREMELY niche audience (if you think Dark Souls and the like are niche I'd take a look at their sales figures), with little regards for appealing to every, or at least most, possible players & costumers. It's a game like Aurora 4X, where the author admits that the real reason why they made it is was because there just was nothing like it, or at least to that extent.

    That it is a hardcore game doesn't mean it's any better or worse than any other kind of game, and to think otherwise is plain dumbfounded. It's way more complicated and demanding to make a game for "everyone" than for basically yourself.

    Thanks to self-publishing, the indie rise and several AAA developers haveing gotten fairly burned out by the previous period, you can get almost any game you can dream of, to satisfy your utmost perverted wishes, as hidden as it might be with like minded communities. If it doesn't exist, it's being made or will be soon. And hell, you can even go and make one yourself with the lowest entry requirement in the history of the medium.

    There is also to regard that, maybe, MAYBE, people just grow tired of games, *most* games or some genres when they get older usually due to being partly burned out, partly demands of life being more time consuming, becoming parents, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I can very well see myself not liking grand strategy/4X games as much in thirty years unless they undergo more general changes like maybe following the Endless games' pholosophy.

    Got it gifted this christmas, looking forward to check it out. Even if it's not so good it'd be funny even if to just be playing a The Long Dark autumn mod.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  5. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    No, it's not that simple. And you didn't prove it with science yet. Did you read the piece? It specifically mentions games which subjects played: "After 90 hours of playing first-person shooter games such as Call of Duty, Killzone, Medal of Honour and Borderlands 2". Those games are not good FPS games. In short, those are shitty games. You should not judge the whole genre based on its worst representatives, you know?

    And those four games are indeed ones which actively make you dumber, if you play them alot. They do it on purpose, too, even if making players dumber is only a side-effect and not the primary goal of such designs. Personally, i can't play modern Call of Duty for any much, it's simply disqusting for me (note though that i am certified marksman IRL, and this certainly makes me more aware of all the wrongness than most other gamers).

    But, this is not only my personal opinion - this has also been noted by others on multiple occasions, about each of those 4 games. And not just noted, but also explained in detail. See yourself:

    - Call of Duty: "one of the things that Call of Duty does, and it's smart business, to a degree, is they compress the skill gap. And the way you compress the skill gap as a designer is you add a whole bunch of randomness. A whole bunch of weaponry that doesn't require any skill to get kills. Random spawns, massive cone fire on your weapons. Lots of devices that can get kills with zero skill at all ... the skill gap is so compressed, that it's like a slot machine. You might as well just sit down at a slot machine and have a thing that pops up an says “I got a kill!” They've taken individual skill out of the equation so much". Source.

    - Killzone: "Sony has invested the rough equivalent of a developing country’s GDP into their muscular next-gen system, and the company desperately wants to prove why we must upgrade. For all the talk during the lead-up to the PS4 launch about how a boost in processing power would magically unshackle developers from technical limits and usher in a bold new era of creativity in video games, the decision to feature the fourth iteration of this inessential series as one of the system’s flagship titles shows that perhaps the new boss is the same as the old boss. And so in the absence of any new ideas, Killzone: Shadow Fall exists as worshipful paean to the technical power of the PlayStation 4, not as a game to actually play and enjoy". Source.

    - Medal of Honor. Chances are the latest game of this series - MoH: Warfighter - was played in that "research" you give us. If so, then it's just one shitty game, in general. Critical reception of it mentions the following: "one of the worst video games we have ever played ... It's so brazenly unremarkable, its storytelling so amateurish, its action so rote, that it feels like a master class in middling modern warfare ... this once-loved series may be dangerously close to being put in a casket ... linear gameplay failed to add up to the tension, there is too much ammo and enemies show up in predictable places making the game too easy, poor storytelling, confined maps ... Warfighter is down with everything that makes modern shooters fucking despicable ... the lack of player input on the actual plot, stating that "being played by a self-aware human being was classified by the developers as a bug". This lead him to coin the term "Spunkgargleweewee" to describe overly linear, modern military shooters. He later placed Medal of Honor: Warfighter at #2 in his list of worst games of 2012, describing it as "obnoxious, incoherent, and boring". Source.

    - Borderlands 2: "With Borderlands, you don't do much more than point at guys and make the red bars get smaller, which means, to paraphrase the classic GamePro advice, shooting them until they die. Most good shooters go beyond that. In FEAR, they call in reinforcements, flip over tables to create cover, distract you to allow their friends to flank, and it all feels right. In Halo, an Elite will make use of his grunts, turning them into meat shields when his shields pop. In Far Cry 2, putting a sniper round through a mercenary's kneecap will inevitably result in his allies coming to check on him.

    These games treat their world as real and their inhabitants more so. They make use of the first-person perspective, of that idea of immersing the player within a world, and they take it as far as they can. Borderlands 2, on the other hand, treats its enemies in distinctly different terms. Its enemies are mobs to be aggroed while you blast them with AOE attacks and whatnot. They're not treated like people inhabiting a space; they're treated like concepts with legs, bipedal ideas given malicious form. Shoot shoot, bang bang, visual effects. On to the next guy. ...

    A good shooter should feel like a stew of sensory data, feedback, use of space, and artificial intelligence. Everything should fit together in a way that feels right—in a way that somewhat emulates actually being in a space, because that's really what first-person games are all about. ... The best shooters not only treat space like it's real, but encourage players to explore that game space, thinking about where cover is, where enemies are, where gunfire is going, where their gunfire is going, how to game enemies into different space, and so on and so forth". Source.

    This is why the key point is not that all four games in that research you mention - are FPS games. They key point is how those four specific games are made. There are many other FPS games which are very different, in this regard! Try Red Faction 1, try Counter-Strike 1.4 ... 1.6 (NOT later versions!), try Mechwarrior 4, try the original Deus Ex, heck, try Quake 1 or Half-Life even, - and you will find every one of games i here named makes you think times and times more than any of the games they used in that "research", and in particular present difficult challenges for your reflexes, precision, tactics and situational awareness. I even dare suspect that this "research" you give us here - is intentionally biased by using this _kind_ of FPS games, - which for simplicity we can call "stupidifying FPS titles".

    Why, exactly, those researches didn't use any of games i just mentioned, eh? Especially Red Faction 1, which personally i regard as most excellent FPS game ever made. There are two possible answers to this question. 1st, they simply have no idea about which FPS games are good, and which are shit. But in this case, results of their research can't be valid. 2nd, they know everything above very well, but intentionally picked games which makes people stupid. Boring, badly made, and most of all - preventing players from _actually_ make a difference in the game's world. But in this case, results of their research are not to be trusted neither.

    Sidenote. Try to beat Red Faction 1 on hardest difficulty to see what i mean. It's availabe through these days for very humble cost, by the way. I managed to do so many years ago, and it was unforgettable experience. Makes you so much better FPS player, hones your reflexes, and at times makes you realize how inferior we humans are to computer-controlled characters when they are not artificially restricted from wiping us human players out.

    Another one thing which is universaly true about 4 games used in that "research" - all those are console "FPS" games. Well let me tell you a "secret": there are no FPS games on consoles. You can't make any true shooter game if your players use a gamepad for controls. Seriously. Because it's simply impossible to do precise and quick enough "point and shoot" action using analog sticks. It's like asking a man without hands to shoot a rifle - as stupid and idiotic as it sounds, and yet that's exactly what is being done for modern concole gamers. I see it as a form of psychological torture, in fact...

    So you see, FPS games can differ dramatically, just like games of any other genre; some are made primarily for idiots and, naturally, make anybody playing them to slowly degrade into an idiot. Results of this process are well described in the full piece about Call of Duty (available through the 1st link of this post): ruining whole generation of FPS gamers. Which that "study" you gave observes in certain specific details. But this in no way means whole genre is the same. Far from!

    P.S. This post further confirms observations i made in my previous post, too. I find it reassuring.
  6. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    I enjoyed it, it might not be something I'll play again for a long time but I still enjoyed playing it.
  7. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    That guy probably hasn't even reached Sanctuary. Yawn. The only stupid thing Borderlands have are their main plots. I do wonder how that doesn't apply to almost every single Action game, though.

    Just to name a single enemy off the sheer variety of them, Loader Bots, which were an addition in the second game, are a very common enemy with a shitload of variations that also are usually fought at the same time along different human enemies, drones and often also fighting wildlife at the same time as yourself and your coop companions. They make great use of the Critical Hit system, which for the most part will duplicate damage when hiting "weak points", ranging from heads to gaps in armor and limbs. But for Loader Bots, every single of the connections between the main body and its libs IS a weak point, but not that alone, they have a fair lot of health so they'll survive some firing to them, and consequentially they'll be noticeably crippled. You can incapacitate their gun arm on their right, their left will eliminate their melee hi and make them drop their riot shields if they're that variant, a single leg will make them hobble and aim a bit worse, blowing both legs but not the arms makes them crawl, and popping all the limbs but a last one will either have them fleeing if there's a repair drone around, or runt o you and self-destruct really fast, usually cutting the distance with their rocket boosters. If you get distracted and don't finish them off they might get restored and get back to you, as they'll usually respawn in waves. You can also pop their red eye which throws focus laser beams and blind them temporarily, and last but not least they're Armored enemies so the only real alternative to use all the above mentioned is using strong AoEm which is rare to find an effective and reliable use of, or generally use Corrosive damage elemental weapons. Weapon randomization and variety only adds to all of this; could you use high spread weapons, high precision ones to specifically aim at different points or will you use elemental damage? I'm not even accounting the different player character's distinct ability trees, which could include Melee into the equation, make ricocheting, piercing and explosive attacks, or fling them around to use the above.

    Loot Midgets
    See also: Loot Midget
    Notable Loaders

    Honestly, that last post is exhausting. If the sheer conviction that everyone who doesn't enjoy what you do is scientifically proven to be stupid is what makes you happy, the more power to ya.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  8. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht I guess you're through, huh? Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    And I'm pretty sure Risewild's original post was more humorous and sarcastic than actually serious.
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  9. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    The 1st paragraph of this post presents something i never said, entirely made up by the post's author. Please don't do that.

    Now to reflect on some other points you made. I sure respect the original Portal game. It's good. Crysis and Far Cry, i simply don't have any much personal experience with, but i hear those are good also. I played through the original Bioshock and it's good, too. I hear though that other Bioshock games are substantially worse than 1st in gameplay terms. Stalker games, i played much, and to be honest, i find them shallow. They have certain appeals, like all other games we so far mentioned in this topic (otherwise nobody would buy them at all, of course), but overall i wouldn't name Stalker series good FPS games. Most other games you mentioned, i never played even a tiny bit.

    I.e., i don't pretend to know every game, yes. But i don't need to. There are certain over-arching considerations, some of them available through the links in my previous post, which make me confident that i know what i'm saying about FPS genre in general. Whether you agree with me or not is not much important. Whether i am correct or not is not much important either. What's important as far as name of this topic goes if we talk FPS genre in particular - is that we do see undeniable signs that many modern titles (not all, you right about it, - but many), including some of most popular ones, are made in ways which stimulate human stupidity. If you deny it, then we two just have nothing to talk about. If you don't deny it, then my original question remains: should we be worried about it?
  10. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Hey now, don't be mean to people with disabilities. People without hands and arms still enjoy shooting as a sport and hobby.

    Also I am sorry, but I have to disagree. PC also doesn't have real FPS.
    Mouse and Keyboard are not the proper way of playing FPS. You want real aiming precision? You have to use a Light Gun. That is where the real precision comes in. Since they don't make Light Gun games these days, there are no real FPS games anymore :-(.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  11. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    There is no smiley in his post. And anyway, the result of that research he gave a link to - was not. I had to intervene the way i did.
  12. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht I guess you're through, huh? Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    It's called "deadpan humour". Granted, it's hard to recognize in a text-based form, and even harder if you don't know Risewild.
    But I can assure you that nobody here would have taken that article seriously even without your intervention. The science in these fields (psychology and sociology) is by necessity quite limited and generally to be taken with a shitton of grains of salt.
  13. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    Very funny. I did not mean to shoot a rifle as a sport and hobby. I meant shooting a rifle in combat situations - which i hoped is obvious from the context, as nearly all FPS games are not about sport and hobby, but about actual combat.

    Also funny about light guns. Haha. Mouse is better than light guns, my friend, as far as "first person shooting" games go. Anatomically, you can do better with your palm than with your arm in terms of speed and precision of aiming. See yourself, i doubt say all those frags could be all done with any Light Gun you know (especially those near-instant railgun kills of "oh, there is a guy to the side" sort):

    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  14. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    I am sorry to disappoint, but you're wrong about that "nobody" part. I am here, and i have. It is one known weakness of mine - i take too many things seriously. I doubt i am unique in this regard, too.

    And yes, i don't know Risewild, so thanks for letting me know about it. :ok:
  15. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    I don't think there is anything funny about saying people with disabilities can't do stuff.
    I am sorry, but there was nothing in your sentence that implied people would be shooting rifles in combat. You only said "It's like asking a man without hands to shoot a rifle", see? There is nothing there that would suggest it was in a combat situation. I am sorry but I can't read minds.
    Yes, anyone that knows how to aim a gun could do that with a light gun. It is easier and everything, since it keeps your sight and aim on target no matter what.
    There is a reason why real life guns are shot the way they are and not using a mouse though. You aim better, faster and more accurately with iron-sights than with a mouse.When I was in the army, I could hit a moving can of coke from quite a few meters away while the sharpshooters could hit a moving coin at around the same distance.
    FPS purpose is to simulate real life shooting, there is nothing real life in using a keyboard and mouse to aim at the center of a screen and click a button to shoot.

    Light Guns are the closest to real gun shooting, they are definitely the best. Mouse and Keyboard are for Point and Click and RTS games. Controllers are for Platformers

    Yeah, sorry about not putting smileys. I forget new people come by all the time.

    If you're worried about your own intellect getting diminished over time. You shouldn't.
    As long as you keep your brain stimulated it shouldn't be a problem.

    Try to read and write (specially if you hand-write because it improves hand-eye coordination and mental acuity) a lot, play stimulating games where you have to make hard choices and/or have good puzzles, with good writing and plenty of text (since you seem like a gamer), play other types of games like sudoku, crosswords and even jiggsaw puzzles also help. Eat well, sleep well, have regular exercise in any way you can (doesn't need to be running for an hour or lift 100kg daily, simply 20 minutes walking helps).

    If you do all or even some of the above during the years, your brain shouldn't have any problems keeping itself stimulated and happy.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  16. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht I guess you're through, huh? Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    With "nobody here" I was refering to those who have been active around here for a bit longer, and have gotten to know the place a bit better.
    Also, with regards to FPS one could argue that trackballs are better than mice, too.
    There used to be this combination of joystick and trackball specifically made for FPS games, and it's said that players could execute blisteringly fast and consistent 180° degree turns with that setup that you couldn't pull off with a mouse.

    I do find that interesting. I've been thinking about getting a trackball for a while, mostly because I had some wrist problems, but a good workout routine fixed that...
  17. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    You could maybe check out the Steam Controller then, Hass.
  18. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht I guess you're through, huh? Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    That one uses touchpads, right? I did see a controller with a thumb-operated trackball once (it was a Kickstarter or something like that) and some hacks that put trackballs into Playstation controllers, though.
    Well, it would make controllers usable for FPS and RTS games.
  19. SquiglyContiello

    SquiglyContiello Still Mildly Glowing

    Jan 3, 2018
    Everyone knows that the Guitar Hero controller is best for action games.
    It makes Dark Souls and Doom casual easy.
  20. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    Still you can't guarantee some old-timer wouldn't be much like me in the regard, but OK. I dig. :)

    And mouse can execute exactly "blisteringly fast and consistent 180° degree turns", if you must know. That's universally well known and practiced among all the Q3 speed junkies (if i may call 'em so, that's a compliment in fact). You can see it clearly in the following video, starting at 3:22 mark, where normal speed video capture fails to record such turns in any detail so fast they are, but slow-mo replay given right after reveals all those turns in every little detail:

    Mouse sensitivity can be tweaked to allow that. Basically you need to have it high enough so that full 180 is possible in under 2 cm of mouse movement on the pad. Assuming good laser mouse and enough hand motor memory, you not only can do such turns blisteringly fast, but also very precise as well. The hand itself is capable to position the mouse well under 0.1mm precision once you've got enough good FPS experience with your mouse, its laser beam can capture such small differences (and smaller) as well, and does not have any inertia to speak about (while track balls do).

    Or was it another joke on me, i wonder. :D