War - thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by MutantScalper, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    My point is that a lot of your "heroes" were hard-boiled sentenced criminals spending years in gulags. Thieves, rapists, and violent bloodthirsty illiterates, the worst scum from whole Russia pooled in the frontline battalions. They actually raped and sacked Berlin alright, since many penal battalions reached the capital city.
     
  2. Makta

    Makta The DICKtator

    Jul 29, 2010
    The Ukraine conflict is actually hard for me. I love Russia but i love Ukraine more. Russia really shoudln't have even thought of setting foot in there but on the other hand Ukraine wanted to join EU and EU is not something i would put a lot of faith in. Also Porky is probably not the best candidate Ukraine could have for a president.

    But now Ukraine is outside of EU and far away from getting an agreement back with Russia.

    If only Putin would think of a strong Russia and not rebuild his old USSR with these kinds of stupid moves.


    Edit: Slava ukraini, heroyam slava!
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You have some scientific knowledge to back that one up? Or do we just talk buillshiit-all-russians-are-evil ideology again? Because this is just as common like the "The Germans had the best army/tanks/everything!" of WW2 myth that is paroted on literaly every WW2 forum out there. However, this has very little to do with history.

    Mind you, I have no particular love for the Soviets or Russians. But what you give away, is historical bullshit, sorry. It's leading to this shitty relativism of 'which nation is the worse' game. The Germans are the worst! No! The Russians! But the Germans had concentration camps! But the Russians raped and pillaged!

    You disslike Russians, I get that. But like I said, we are talking about millions of soldiers here, the average veterans of which the whole army did NOT arrive in Berlin or the Soviet worker that never left his hole, and made tanks and weapons under incredible conditions.

    I mean do you display the same thought about the Germans and their army by the way? I don't see you making a comment about Wittman beeing a member of the Waffen SS. I will take everything back if you see them likewhise as thieves, rapists and violent bloodthirsty murderes.

    Again, the Soviets are not 'heroes', I am just giving credit, where credit is due. I mean if even some German veterans can do that ... why can't you? Hell, there have been even two veterans who fought in Berlin in 1945 which meet again at the Reichstag, sharing their experiences together.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  4. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    You can find a lot of autobiographic books written by former penal battalion commanders printed after the WW2 so do your homework and read some.

    Oh yes, I do. Atrocities including organized mass rape as a fear tactics commited by Wehrmacht in Eastern European countries belongs to the same basket as atrocities commited by Russian penal battalions.

    Not exactly Wittman, but here you go:
    http://nma-fallout.com/threads/.208143/page-113#post-4207727
     
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I know that ... maybe I wasn't clear, I am talking about numbers. The Soviet Army/Red Army had probably millions of members. Do you have some accurate enough number on this Thievery, Raping etc. to make a claim of:
    "My point is that a lot of your "heroes" were hard-boiled sentenced criminals spending years in gulags. Thieves, rapists, and violent bloodthirsty illiterates, the worst scum from whole Russia pooled in the frontline battalions"
    Besides, I was also talking about the civilian population which worked in the countless of factories all across the Soviet Union, hidding somewhere or in general enduring the issues of war, like the population of Leningrad in their 300+ day siege. Are they all criminals too?
    I am not saying the German Wehrmacht was full of criminals because of what the Waffen SS did you know. History doesn't work that way.

    But we don't call 4 million member sof the Wehrmacht thieves or rapists.

    Well, fair enough, but you did adress me and my points about the Soviet army and civlians and their feats in WW2 - which are still impressive even IF they would be all criminals, while saying nothing abou the guy who talked about the Tiger I and Wittmann one page ago.

    If I was jumping to conclussions, than forgive me but a certain 'German bias' and 'disslike' for everything that is Soviet, is sadly very common in the WW2 community these days ... while they show no discipline or actually care about historical facts. Like for example, when a German Tiger destroys 20 T34, than it's a heroic deed and excelent display of bravery, but if a Soviet Tank commander destroys 20 german Tanks with his KV1, than it's due to unfair advantages for the Soviets - if it isn't simply shrug off as propaganda right away.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  6. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dozy northern git

    Nov 22, 2009
    Not sure about the Soviet penal battalions and their acts. However, one issue that comes up often and with quite a lot of merit are the rapes that Soviet troops (not just penal battalions) committed as they were taking over their part of Germany. There were rapes committed by them, how many I don't know exactly. Stalin gave a vague statement of "revenge" etc. that I suppose could be interpreted as 'licence to do almost anything' in Germany.

    However, as the Soviet troops were advancing, the Nazi regime and their propaganda machine was still very much active. When they reported on some rapes by the Soviet troops they noticed that the average civilian Germans got scared. So they started to embellish the rape figures. One rape became ten rapes, and then hundred rapes, etc. So there is that component any serious historian has to take into consideration when evaluating the rape figures.

    There are some western historians such as Anthony Beevor and Richard Overy who stand by the very high Soviet rape figures. I don't remember them mentioning the Nazi propaganda in their books. I'd like to hear comments from Beevor and Overy about charactes such as 'Bomber' Harris and the bombing campaign over Europe that targeted civilians.

    Also, there were rapes by the US, UK and French troops as well that have only in recent years come out as if emerging from some strange propaganda smog that has been hanging over western Allied war crimes for decades.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/books/rape-by-american-soldiers-in-world-war-ii-france.html

    Btw, Nazi German troops also committed mass rapes in the east. AND they committed genocides on top of that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  7. Kadscaner

    Kadscaner NMA's Neighborhood Mutant

    Feb 4, 2016
    Rape was strictly forbidden in the Wehrmacht. If you did it you were either killed or sent to a punishment unit. The ones that raped were the soviets. Just saying...
     
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Are you an idiot or something? Rape was rather common in war, including the Wehrmacht.

    Rapes
    Rapes were allowed in practice by the German military (officially forbidden, however) in eastern and southeastern Europe, while northern and western countries were relatively spared.[75][76] In Occupied Denmark, which initially agreed to collaborate with Nazi Germany, rapes were not widespread, and German officials promised to punish them.[75] By contrast thousands of Soviet female nurses, doctors and field medics fell victim to rape when captured, and were often murdered afterwards.[17]

    German soldiers used to brand the bodies of captured partisan women – and other women as well – with the words "Whore for Hitler's troops" and rape them.[77] Following their capture some German soldiers vividly bragged about committing rape and rape-homicide.[78] Susan Brownmiller argues that rape played a pivotal role in Nazi aim to conquer and destroy people they considered inferior such as Jews, Russians, Poles[79] An extensive list of examples rapes committed by German soldiers was compiled in so called "Molotov Note" in 1942. Brownmiller points out that Nazis used rape as a weapon of terror[80]

    Examples of mass rapes in Soviet Union committed by German soldiers include:

    • Smolensk: German command opened a brothel for officers in which hundreds of women and girls were driven by force, often by arms and hair.[81]
    • Lviv: 32 women working in a garment factory were raped and murdered by German soldiers, in public park. A priest trying to stop the atrocity was murdered.
    • Borissov in Belarus: 75 women and girls attempting to flee at the approach of the German troops were captured by them. The Germans first raped and then savagely murdered 36 of their number. By order of a German officer named Hummer, the soldiers marched L. I. Melchukova, a 16-year-old girl, into the forest, where they raped her. A little later some other women who had also been dragged into the forest saw some boards near the trees and the dying Melchukova nailed to the boards. The Germans had cut off her breasts in the presence of other women.
    • Kerch:imprisoned women were raped and tortured;breasts were cut off,stomachs ripped open, limbs cut off and eyes gouged out. A mass grave full of mutilated bodies of young women was found after Germans were driven out of town.
    • Lviv-Germans soldiers raped Jewish girls, who were murdered after getting pregnant[82] It is estimated that over a million children were born to Russian women, fathered by German soldiers.[83]:56 [84]
    Author Ursula Schele, estimated in the Journal "Zur Debatte um die Ausstellung Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Wehrmacht 1941-1944" that in one of ten sexual intercourse with German soldiers would have led to pregnancy and therefore its probable, while not provable that up to ten millions women in the Soviet Union could have been raped by the Wehrmacht.[85]:9

    Birgit Beck, in her work Rape: The Military Trials of Sexual Crimes Committed by Soldiers in the Wehrmacht, 1939–1944, describes the leniency in punishing sex crimes by German authorities in the East, at the same time pointing out heavy punishments applied in the West.[86] If a soldier who committed a rape was subsequently convicted by a court-martial, he would usually be sentenced to four years in prison[87] The German penal code was also valid for soldiers in war.[88] However, until 1944 only 5.349 soldiers of the Wehrmacht on all fronts were sentenced because of indecency offence "Sittlichkeitsvergehen" or rape "Notzucht".[89] Historian Mühlhäuser believe that sexual assault was not an exception but common, and that the actual number of rapes committed by German soldiers are without question much greater.[90]

    Other sources estimate that rapes of Soviet women by the Wehrmacht range up to 10,000,000 incidents, with between 750,000 and 1,000,000 children being born as a result.[83][84][85][91]

    In Soviet Russia rapes were only a concern if they undermined military discipline.[86] Since 1941, rape was theoretically punishable with the death sentence, although, rapes were rarely prosecuted in practice and rapes by Germans of non-German women were not taken seriously, nor was it punishable by death, especially in the eastern European territories.[83]:288 In October 1940 the laws on rape were changed, making it a "petitioned crime" – that is a crime for which punishment had to be requested. Historian Christa Paul writes that this resulted in "a nearly complete absence of prosecution and punishment for rape".[83]:288 There were rape cases in the east where the perpetrators were sentenced if the rape was highly visible, damaging to the image of the German Army and the courts were willing to pass a condemning verdict against the accused.[83]:289

    According to the historian Regina Mühlhäuser, the Wehrmacht also used sexual violence and undressing in numerous cases of interrogations.[92] Mühlhäuser adds that the number of illegitimate children born in the occupied regions did not exceed the prewar time. She comes to the conclusion that rapes on the Eastern front were not singular cases but has to admit that the state of source material is very poor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht
     
  9. Kadscaner

    Kadscaner NMA's Neighborhood Mutant

    Feb 4, 2016
    I didn't say it never happened. I said it was forbidden and if you were caught doing it you were punished.
     
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Did you care to read the spoiler?

    If you have like a 100 000 rape incidents, but "maybe" 5 000 people prosecuted, than you can not really talk much about that it was 'forbiden'. Rape, was a common and openly practised action in WW2, and cases of prosecution, have been rather the exception, than the rule. It was somewhat less common with the western allies, but it still happend even here like the mass rape by French forces when they sacked Stuttgart. From all the allied forces, the Soviets have been by far the worst - some numbers go up to 2 million. It seems the British had the least cases of rape in Germany, which might had something to do with it their NCOs which wouldn't allow soldiers to go off on their own.


    *Edit
    Also this:
    https://books.google.de/books?id=UriJZI53RHsC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=wehrmacht+rape+death+sentence&source=bl&ots=lMSkLLjW7F&sig=p43XOGqJSooOroQMQcrqRvhTE2Y&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq8tS5jePSAhXChiwKHVdtA5EQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=wehrmacht rape death sentence&f=false

    'Only one Soldier received the Death Sentence for violating Paragraph 175 (Notzucht or Rape)'

    So either, the German army was one of the most disciplined army in the history of mankind. Or, no one really cared to much about it when it happend.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  11. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dozy northern git

    Nov 22, 2009
    As Crni_Vuk correctly stated, the Nazi German troops also committed mass rapes. And no they didn't often prosecute the rapists. The Soviets also instituted punishments for troops who raped and also convicted their rapists to death.

    So, yes. Obviously if the Soviets condemned over 4 k of their own soldiers to death then yes, they did have sanctions. And compared to how few the Americans convicted to death although they too committed their fair share of atrocities in WW 2 one could argue that there is more to this then meets the eye. And if you look into rapes by the western allied, there were those too and they quite often let their rapist soldiers go without punishment.

    One of the things I forgot to mention about the Nazi propaganda concerning rapes, it was a way the falling Third Reich could somehow get the civilians to oppose the Soviets and not welcome them as liberators. In many cases civilians started fighting against the Soviets. This emotive tactic is still around and used by some right-wing extremists trying to paint, say, immigrants in a negative way. Soviets did not carry out any large scale genocides against German civilians.

    Another propaganda tactic was that of destroying the various buildings used in the genocides. This was one of the last official orders of the Nazi regime. This is an indicator of the fact that they knew they'd been doing something they shouldn't have been doing and they knew they had to at least try to cover up for their crime. This mentality exists today in the form of 'holocaust denial'. So, it's not as if WW 2 and the Nazi regime are 'ancient history', they are very recent history.