Your Complaints Are Pointless...

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by The King of The Worms, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. CaptJ

    CaptJ The Rival of Roquefort Hall

    Jan 19, 2016
    For starters, I came to this website after listening to those complaints. Second, people are now more critical of Bethesda on FO4 especially because of how close it was released to Witcher 3. Skyrim and FO4 are at a similar level but FO4 didn't get as much fanfare as Skyrim. Third, Fallout: New Vegas manage to convert Bethesda Fallout fans.

    I never liked the "turn off your brain" argument. People can just not enjoy things and people can complain. Don't listen to my complaints; don't get my money. Bethesda isn't entitled to my money and I don't need to play games to live. So please don't tell people to lower their standards. Honestly do people think that everyone just buys every new big release?
  2. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    It really isn't, it's the only rational response to Bethesda's grasp on the franchise IMHO.
    They care about Fallout as a cash cow.

    They don't care about the integrity of the series, otherwise they wouldn't have made half the decisions they made.
    They did.

    Oxhorn can overanalyse stupid, gimmicky, cliche side-stories all he wants but that doesn't make Fallout 4 have good hidden lore/secrets.

    Plus, Kid in the Fridge shows, beyond a shred of doubt that Bethesda don't even care about the implications of what they write, despite all the shoehorned defences thrown at it.
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  3. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    What I think, @The King of The Worms seems to not understand is that we here at NMA see (I'm making assumptions based on my opinion so don't be offended if I fail to encapsulate your view as well.) the Fallout IP has two completely separate nomenclatures that for us, help us identify the overall IP.

    To break it down: The Fallout IP is mainly two items.
    1st. a piece of art.
    We here at NMA very much like to respect and admire art for its sheer quality, and strive to not only enjoy well thought and made art, but to find a way to also improve upon it. I think the reason for this is simply because we do greatly enjoy the IP, and want it to become great in its own way again.

    From my perspective art is completely about perspective, or the direction/shifting of it to help its viewer understand it's intent and message.

    2nd. It is a product for sale.
    When art is created for the purpose of sale the freedom to "freely" enjoy it is removed and requires consumer input to maintain a viable product. In this case lets use a random infomercial product as an example of a product.
    Lets say the spray on hair in a can is Fallout in this sense. Both generated a great deal of hype and praise, but ultimately fell flat based on relatively similar reasons. However if reviewed as a product we can determine that the quality and use of the product is very limited. This is a massive conflict for art, as art is not a product specific idea.

    In this case we have to weigh the game as two separate entities, one as art, and the other a consumable product. When a consumer purchases a product with the intent of consumption they must calculate its worth in both price and time to identify if it is indeed worth the purchase as well their time to consume it.

    If it is deemed unworthy, then it will simply be left to die out like some old infomercial product that existed in only a short bang.

    However I believe I speak for the majority here with the following statement.
    Bethesda has been trying to circumvent the natural course of life of their products through under handed tactics. These tactics when employed not only damage their product as a whole, but deals incredible damage to the art, and those who enjoy it in the form similar to throwing a can of paint on an expensive painting.

    For example they have been trying to extend the IP by cutting out actually viable content and instead replace it with literally insulting stories, mechanics, and their attempt at humor. These conflicts ultimately generate friction, which normally would destroy the product. However by implementing these cost cutting options they then use the other allocated funds to market the game. Right now from my perspective the Fallout IP is nothing than a marketed idea based on lies and moronic hype.

    We simply want Bethesda to stop throwing "paint", and have them actually create art worthy of our consumption, which I strongly feel would be of the most benefit to them, and their consumers.
  4. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    Going to be honest, nowadays I treat all media as art, I expect it to be quality focused, unique, interesting, and most of all, a lot of heart put into it.

    Probably why I treat most games as total trash.

    But I cannot do anything but admire games like Rule The Waves, Dwarf Fortress, and Fallout 1-2, it is telling that despite any shortcomings, and any flaws, the overal idea was to make a fucking awesome game firstly, and from there, hope it makes money/gets downloaded a lot.

    I seriously haven't watched a single movie in the cinemas for ages despite my relatives seeing several, I fail to see the point, from shitty effects to generic characters and plots, I cannot stand them anymore, there's no tension, I know who'll live and die from the first minute of the film, I know female characters especially will be mary sues, and that there will be no consequences to anything.


    I need a hug.
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  5. Tuffluck

    Tuffluck First time out of the vault

    Jul 13, 2017
    More like fug
    On a more serious note, however, your trend of not going to movies is not an isolated incident. Hollywood has been trash since forever. Its only now that people have been getting fed up with being given garbage on a platter. Indy isn't much better with their "oh so artsy 2deepUUUU" attitude.
  6. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    The only films I like to see nowadays is Neil Blomkamf. DX
  7. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    That's funny, because most of Fallout 4 actually fixes a lot of shortcomings of Fallout 3, most importantly in the story department.
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  8. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne Fallout to the rear of the formation Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    Too bad that whole RPG thing went to shit.
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  9. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    I mean, giving vague motives to one of your factions and not even trying to justify all the shit they do, making another faction with such a specific goal(helping synths) that they don't even bother with the other countless day-to-day survival problems people face, having even more cliched and generic pre-war stories than before, and a generic good-guy faction isn't exactly good storytelling. Maybe it's slightly above Fallout 3, but it's still fairly weak.

    TBH I genuinely cannot see what you like about Fallout 4. The storytelling is generic and full of flaws, only good in comparison to the second weakest main game, the Roleplaying elements are subpar. I genuinely do not get what you see in this game.
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  10. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    I wouldn't say it. It's not an RPG in the sense of FNV or Fo1/2, but more like Witcher 2/3. It even has a similar character development system and implementation of the Persuasion skill (or Axii, wasn't it?).

    The justification is in the form of a subterranean metropolis and the capacity to restore the wasteland to pre-War standards and beyond. It's basically an oasis of peace and prosperity in a devastated wasteland.

    The lack of justification is the Institute's moral myopia, which is kind of a part of its story arc.

    Because that's not what the Railroad does. It's basically a variant on the Minutemen ending, if you want a complete hands-off experience.

    That's not a real argument, but a broad generalization.

    It's not a generic good-guy faction, but Player Faction.

    I don't hate on it, for starters. I appreciate the in-depth research in many parts of the game, or the fact that the story is generally good and well told. For example, it directly shows you how the different factions can be a threat to one another. Why does the Brotherhood wipe out the Railroad? Because the Railroad can (and if you side with it, does) destroy the Prydwen if given the chance. It becomes an interesting question then, whether that was a self-fulfilling prophecy or if there was a way at cooperation.

    Or the interference ran on the surface by the Institute: The Minutemen ending explicitly shows what happens if the Commonwealth organizes and retaliates against the Institute. It pays to actually listen to what the game tells you, rather than rely on superficial experiences.
  11. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    The Witcher's RPG mechanics work because you aren't creating a character and seeing them interact with the world, but instead interpreting an already existing character.

    Fallout 4 does neither of those things.

    Fallout 4 doesn't let you create your own character and see them get on, because you are always limited by few actual choices, a voice for your character, few ways to interact with the world beyond the occasional speech check and a character building which rarely if ever offers you alternate way round things, instead giving you static combat bonuses.

    Fallout 4 also doesn't do the Witcher style RPG game well because the character

    It's like having a burger which is burnt on one side and raw on the other. It fails utterly as both kinds of an RPG.
    You say that they have the capacity to restore the wasteland to pre-war standards and beyond, but they literally mention over and over again that they have no interest in the world above, and believe it's doomed.

    • They make robots with the abilities to question there orders for no apparent reason. And instead of making few, they are making them every 5 minutes for no good reason
    • Speaking of that: Think of the implications of an organisation making new workers every 5 minutes. Literally everyone on FalloutLore is saying that they have the capacity to take over the entire wasteland like that, but Bethesda didn't even explore this, instead adding a thing with huge implications without thinking of the costs.
    • They waste valuable resources on making synthetic gorillas for no apparent reason
    • They literally do not mention any long-term goals, what they intend for the future or anything. They assume you'll side with them because they are supposedly the future, but give no actual reasons to.
    • There entire schtick is about redifining mankind, but gave up on FEV and Cybernetics research and did nothing to try and redefine mankind.
    • They notice Synths are escaping, so instead of thinking "Gee is this project flawed maybe?", they make more synths to hunt the synths they lost.
    • There only remotely useful invention is teleportation. They spend the rest of there time with silly Synths that don't really do much except think and rebel. Shouldn't they be trying to find things that actually improve quality of life?
    • They send hundreds and hundreds of failed supermutant experiments above ground despite it being quicker and less chance of backfiring if they just killed them off.
    But in a world where there are so many other troubles, literal slavery, starvation, ect., why would anyone dedicate themselves to the freedom of a very small, very irrelevant group of people in a world where so many other forms of slavery and starvation exist?

    Also why is there password "Railroad" and why do they have instructions leading to there mainbase.

    That's like staying logged in to a public computer and setting your password as "Password"
    Do you have any examples of good stories or lore additions in Fallout 4?
    Except the reasons the Brotherhood and Railroad want to wipe each other out is literally there differing views on Synths?, find me a piece of dialogue that says "We want these guys dead because they could kill us"

    Also, showing that the Railroad can wipe out the BOS isn't done for storytelling purposes, it's done so that the player can tie up lose ends if they side with the Railroad. You are clearly overthinking this as something clever, when it's just a simple justification for "Wipe out the other 2 factions"
    Ah yes the barely justified interference of the Institute, which is never explained why they do it, and is just there to make them look evilz.

    That comes across as so half-assed it's hilarious.

    The Minutemen Ending was literally just intended to give the players the option to lead there army in to the Institute and win without the help of the other 3. You are overthinking it majorly if you think it was there to "Show what it looks like if the commonwealth organises and retaliates". The game doesn't even imply that was the motive in that ending once.
    It also pays to overanalyse everything to try and make up some faux good writing in the game, rather than seeing the simplistic game how it actually is apparently.
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  12. Kohno

    Kohno Vault Dweller

    Jul 30, 2009
    Why is it funny?

    In any case, I disagree. The story isn't much better in my opinion, just a reverse of 3 (and the factions don't feel very... authentic or interesting); but I can live with mediocre at best writing. The more important part is that I don't think the game got any better as a series title by what it supposedly fixed with its design. Call me old fashioned, but making it a slickier first person shooter didn't make it better ('cause it just further drifted away from being an RPG it was), removing the pause from VATS (instead of building it a more comprehensive combat feature) also didn't, as didn't introducing the perks-for-skills dumbfuckery. And that's not even mentioning the crafting and basebuilding that clutter up the whole thing and push it into being a trashbin scavenging simulator. These all made it worse in my eyes. I can't find fun in a sloppy nor slick and seemingly directionless sandbox FPS, least of all one that's painted to be Fallout. It just doesn't work.

    The game doesn't even work very well as a harmless occasional timesink like Skyrim since it lacks the minute to minute progression incentive (for what little it helped to compensate for the banality of the actual content) Skyrim had with it's learn-through-grind character system.
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  13. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    This thread is beginning to remind me of the Bethesda apologist argument topic. Specifically the mag fest individual I encountered...

    One side reinforced by logic and peer reviewed observation, the other well, I don't know what to call it. Can we at least try to identify some common ground before we continue debating? Or is this going to be like smacking 2 rocks together until there is nothing left but dust?
  14. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Still don't see people pointing out what's mediocre in the writing. It's mostly just parroting one another.

    The taste in factions is personal, but I found them to be interesting, especially the rebirth of the Brotherhood - which is actually what was planned all the way back in Fallout 1. Ask Vree or Tycho what the purpose of the Brotherhood is. Maxson's reformation is precisely that.

    De gustibus. I like it, especially the settlement building which is a core part of the story.

    And Fallout 4 does the same thing, by virtue of providing a defined background.

    So, basically Witcher 2/3.

    I wonder, did Bethesda come and violate you personally for you to have an irrational hatred of them?

    That's why you get the mantle of leadership at the end, at Shaun's insistence, and can turn it around. It's kind of part of their selling point.

    Workforce, kiddo. Kind of the whole point of synths, repeated every single time.

    Also, you do realize that it's a looped animation to spare the player the need to wait for half an hour or the whole day, right? Repeat after me: Technical. Limitation.

    Yes, they do.

    But they don't.

    Again, part of the story. The Institute is extremely advanced and prosperous, but lacks actual leadership that would unite it. The gorillas are part of it: A pet project of BioSciences, because there's nobody to step in and tell them to shut the fuck up.[/quote]

    That's because the goals are completely ephemereal and change from Director to Director. That's why you get to be its leader and get a chance at using its powers for good. Hell, you even get to record a manifesto outlining your policy.

    But you don't like it, because "Bethesda r dumb amirite"?

    Liberating Mankind of the need for manual labor and focusing on science and deepening its knowledge is kind of revolutionary. Post-scarcity, at the very least, is a redefinition of manking as labor is a quintessential part of our lives.

    FEV and Cybernetics were shuttered because this particular Director didn't like them.

    They do. And the numbers that do are trivial. If you look up the Railroad's tally, most years have about a dozen or so escapees, including successful ones. The Railroad is also classified as a distant security threat, because rogue synths are really not much of a problem.

    Gee, if only they have developed some sort of technology that allowed them to build large subterranean habitats, filled with lush greenery and amenities that give every human a high quality of life, perhaps one where synthetic laborers do the menial labor for them...

    Why waste a good mutant when you can set it loose on the surface and make it distract the surface dwellers from you?

    Because, as the game explicitly shows, if the Commonwealth unites, the Minutemen will try to take the fight to the Institute. Because, you know, showing, not telling.

    Relative privation fallacy, ahoy! The Railroad is dedicated to synth liberation and in a broader sense, destruction of the Institute. Maybe they work with synths precisely because it's a small, "very irrelevant" group of people?

    I just love how you consider yourself to be judge of all. "HOW COULD ANYONE DO THIS. HOW CAN ANYONE LIKE HAMBURGERS. HOW CAN ANYONE DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO [insert niche interest, like worshipping twenty year old games on an obscure Internet forum]!!!!!?!?!?!?!1oonenennenene."


    It's a weakness. But given that the first thing you get when you open that door is a minigun shoved into your face by Glory and several other heavies, not to mention the Railroad's time-honored tradition of getting the fuck out of Dodge fast and relocation, it's not as much of a weakness as you make it to be.

    Plenty, but you won't listen, will you?


    Kells: "Now, before we launch our attack on the Institute, we need to address another threat... the Railroad. They're a small, but capable group that uses subterfuge and guerilla tactics to harass their enemies. Our tactical analysis says they could possibly hamper, or harm our operations which is a risk I'm not willing to take. If we strike them now, we should be able to maximize the amount of damage we do to their organization."

    Survivor: "Hit them before they hit us. I like it."

    After: "Precisely. Destroying the Railroad hinges on completely eliminating their leadership, otherwise they'll simply regroup somewhere else."


    Survivor: "Why is the Railroad such a threat?"

    Kells: "Even with their relatively small numbers, the Railroad is a constant threat to our operations. They've already proven to be resiliant against superior forces, with a knack for disappearing when cornered. Worse still, they possess the capability to help synths flee the Institute. If we intend to end the synth menace, we need to plug the leaks."

    You did play the game, right?

    Your bias is showing.

    It's part of the story, deal with it.

    Yeah, because the invasion of the Institute by a pissed off militia backed by an organized Commonwealth is totally not an example of why the Institute tries to keep the surface disorganized.

    Seriously, did Todd Howard kick your dog?




    Taking a game at face value and understanding what it communicates to me is OVERTHINKING.

    I wish we still had Rosh's custom user titles.

    Oh yes, someone disagrees with your BRILLIANT NOTION of "Bethezda r dum" and it's automatically overthinking and overanalyzing.

    Trouble is, it takes no real effort to connect this.

    Yeah, I have trouble finding a name for Jorg's attitude too.
  15. Kohno

    Kohno Vault Dweller

    Jul 30, 2009
    If it is a thorough literary analysis you are after, I have to disappoint you. I haven't found an incentive to do one for a game I do not find captivating, memorable or fun to play (were I in a poisition to review it, I would've, but I am not and I suspect it would be a stressful undertaking anyway). All I can offer is my impression and feel of what I experienced with the limited hours I managed to give it before it died on me on its own (I did not even have to make a conscious decision to stop playing, I just some day noticed that I hadn't continued).

    I'll give you that the BoS was part of the more interesting things in the game, but their introduction at the police station and the mission that followed didn't really fill me with intrigue (the gameplay had it part in that, as it does with everything).

    I can't blame you for liking what you like. I did not find that or the crafting feature anything but clumbersome and feature-creepy busywork.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
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  16. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
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  17. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    I'm mostly after some actual argument, other than "it's bland/boring/whatever".

    I have some 445 hours logged, ahead of FNV already, so I feel I'm in a position to give an opinion on the game's quality and content. Some of it is on and off, but in general, the game holds up well. You didn't like it, that's fine. I don't get into a good deal of games. But you're the rare poster who's aware of their limited exposure to the game and thus careful in formulating their opinions.

    It's kind of a shame, to be honest. You're missing on the Danse story arc, which is Fallout at its best. Or the rebirth of the Brotherhood and BGS mocking its previous game, sometimes quite relentlessly.

    To each his own. I found it a neat way of merging gameplay with story progress.
  18. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    1. Fallout is not a Witcher 2 nor 3, and to be prosperous, Bethesda shouldn't necessary parrot others' work when they already have an RPG system.
    2. Witcher 2 and especially 3's RPG system is not as good as writing and world building in these games.
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  19. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    To be honest, Fallout was always system-confused. SPECIAL was a half-assed effort to replace GURPS, which eviscerated game balance.

    It works for the intended gameplay. In what way is it bad? Unbalanced and counterintuitive? I agree, it sometimes is, but it doesn't detract from the game.
  20. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    What it was, it's a tenth question. And the real question was, how did each game take the advantage of that system and how much of viable roleplaying builds are in these games. New Vegas and recently translated Nevada did great. Just FYI, don't answer to this if you're not here for trolling.
    It's not a great system for an open-world sandbox bethesda's Far Cry killer to parrot. And yes, levels in TW3 were fairly unbalanced when you have overpowered Witcher gear. Not to mention the loot-hoarding method of getting rich due to poor quest rewards... Not much to like there.
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