Game of Thrones

It does that, but it also does the "once upon a time" approach, but by turning it on its head. For instance, introducing the Hound by telling us how he's had a hard life and just seeing a broken man because of it. But then we watch his role play out and grow from this gruff character with a jaded lack of care in the whole world, to an unexpected protector to Sansa, to a vagabond without a place to go, to a harsh teacher for one of the tiny handful of character's who could appreciate the brutal lessons he has to offer, to someone on the verge of achieving his own redemption before being cut down just short of it. We meet him with a story, then we watch a much more human tale surrounding his character play out.

Robb of course was an example of watching a noble and wonderful character's arc of justice prevailing crashing and burning because that's just not how this works. Again, taking a popular model and turning it on its head. Even Jaime was a character introduced as surrounded in legend... just a very unflattering sort, and also cast in a bad light. Then as time goes on you watch a much more relatable tale play out, much like the Hound's.
 
he saved a few million people by back stabing the insane king! Have a bit of sympathy :V

Not to mention, considering the context, if it would have been her legal husband, no one would sheed a tear in the world of game of thrones, as I am pretty sure Robert had its fun with her as well coming home drunk from a hunting trip, she's been treated like a cattle by her father, sold off to the highest bidder, I guess Sansa and Cersei work like mirrors here, as Cersai is showing what Sansa could become, eventually as grown up person thx to the world around her, full of hate, agression and injustice. I really hate Cersei, because she's simply a bitch. But it is also a testimony to the great writting and quality of the character. I mean I dont disslike her, its just one of those characters that kinda deserves what's coming at him.
 
Good point about the "if he were legal husband" part. Most people just focused on the fact that in the books he didn't rape her AT ALL, so they just hated that it turned into a rape scene. I believe what they were going for was a "payoff" (of sorts) with last scene between the two in the final episode where this time Cersei initiates, and this time Jaime says "someone will see" and this time Cersei whispers "I don't care", so we're meant to see that they just have this cyclical, wrong relationship, not that Jaime had reverted to being a bad person all of a sudden. I believe that's what they MEANT to go for, but that was a 7-week-long gap between those 2 scenes to draw a contrast, so that was way too much time for people to establish their uproarious complaints before we got our "resolution scene".

I guess Sansa and Cersei work like mirrors here, as Cersai is showing what Sansa could become, eventually as grown up person thx to the world around her, full of hate, agression and injustice. I really hate Cersei, because she's simply a bitch. But it is also a testimony to the great writting and quality of the character. I mean I dont disslike her, its just one of those characters that kinda deserves what's coming at him.
This is just all off, though. At NO POINT does it seem like Sansa could become Cersei, or does Cersei ever appear to have once been like Sansa. Cersei was always twisted; she's now just twisted but with real power she can abuse. Tywin was always trying "to ship her off", true, but it was never to the highest bidder, it was always to Raegar, and it was the mutual enmity between Tywin and Aerys that led to many of the schisms between their houses. Elia not getting married to Jaime so she's married off to Raegar instead, rather that Cersei. Cersei convincing Jaime to join the Kingsguard, and Aerys accepting him into the Kingsguard to deprive Tywin of his prized eldest son and heir. There was a lot of strife that caused many horrible things to happen, but NONE of it was ever thrust upon Cersei without her welcoming it. She put Jaime into the Kingsguard and driving that final nail into the coffin that was the falling out between the King and his Hand. She went along to King's Landing because she wanted to marry the crown prince. She decided that Tyrion was a monster fated to kill them all (her in particular) so she should maul and torment him from the very fucking moment he was even born. Sansa was a spoiled brat, but she was never a foul and vicious person, just petty and naive. The show makes her out to be WAY nicer, sure, but even at her worst, she was just a spoiled brat, not evil like Cersei.

It's certainly a testament to the quality of writing that people can SEE these possibilities in a character like Cersei's that "anyone" could find themselves in her shoes, just as bad and just as malevolent. But really, they wouldn't. No one would. Cersei was born to be a bad person, and the circumstances just allowed her to exercise that. If any character reflects Cersei, it would be Ramsay, because he would've just been a psychotic, unruly, dastardly nobody, had he never been taken into his father's services, and eventually raised from bastard-born to legitimized, but circumstances provided him the opportunities to exercise his wicked ways, just like they allowed Cersei.
 
There is a difference though, between ramsay and cersei. In that, ramsay seems to take more pleasure in torture. For cersei it's mostly about scheming, and with ramsay it's both scheming and sadism. Although I suppose cersei has her own forms of sadism. Still, I think I can safely say that Cersei is more of a grey character than Ramsay. The only recognizable human trait so far in the story for Ramsay is his need to be accepted by his father despite his bastard-hood.

God damn I love game of thrones so much, waiting for season 5, now that's torture.

You guys hear they are filming Dorne in spain by the way? I'm looking forward to seeing Oberynn's homeland. And maybe some revengeful plotting by his family. Really I just want the lannisters to get fucked over more in general.

By the way, did anyone else find Joffrey's death anticlimactic? I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I never wanted to see him simply die. I wanted him to pay for what he had done in whatever way. If he'd actually been removed from his position and humiliated in some way, now THAT I would have truly loved.
 
There is a difference though, between ramsay and cersei. In that, ramsay seems to take more pleasure in torture. For cersei it's mostly about scheming, and with ramsay it's both scheming and sadism. Although I suppose cersei has her own forms of sadism. Still, I think I can safely say that Cersei is more of a grey character than Ramsay.
I'd attribute that analysis to selective blinders. Remember having Littlefinger executed right in front of her until she changed her mind, just to demonstrate the blind loyalty of her bodyguards which she mistook for actual power? Remember having Ross beaten bloody because she thought she was Tyrion's personal whore and JUST wanted to see Tyrion hurt? Remember how she smiled when she mistakenly presumed his outrage towards her barbarism and her delight at upsetting him for him actually being upset by said savagery? Remember how casually she strode over dead bodies and strewn entrails of peasants whom, in her own words, were "so tiny [she] cannot see or hear" to go speak with Ser Gregor? Cersei is a complete sadist no less so than Ramsay, and she's equally open about it. The only real division between the two is that Ramsay doesn't discriminate with who he butchers, it's all fair fame, meanwhile Cersei largely targets particular individuals- mostly Tyrion, Sansa, and Margaery. Also Ramsay doesn't bother about getting his hands dirty, meanwhile Cersei takes the hypocritical high road of not having done the deeds herself despite commanding them to be done as presumption of making her a better person. No, Cersei and Ramsay are perfect parallels, and it confounds me every time I hear fans ponder out loud (either before Joffrey died contemplatively about the prospect of his death, or after he died and reflecting upon it) "Who do you think is the next most despicable person after Joffrey?" IT'S CERSEI!!!!! Cersei, without any semblance of a shadow of a fragment of a doubt. Cersei, 100%. She's vile to the utter core, and all because she wants to be.

You guys hear they are filming Dorne in spain by the way? I'm looking forward to seeing Oberynn's homeland. And maybe some revengeful plotting by his family.
I'd heard that they were going to cast the rest of the Martells and Sands as latin actors to reflect the casting of Pedro Pascal as Oberyn Martell, but it's no surprise that they'd choose to take that one step further than film the scenes in Dorne in Spain. The kingdom of Dorne was described as "mediterranean" after all.

Really I just want the lannisters to get fucked over more in general.
That would never happen as long as Tywin was in charge.
We can all thank Cersei for what's to come, in terms of the Lannisters getting royally fucked. =)

By the way, did anyone else find Joffrey's death anticlimactic? I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I never wanted to see him simply die. I wanted him to pay for what he had done in whatever way. If he'd actually been removed from his position and humiliated in some way, now THAT I would have truly loved.
Yeah, but that was the point. It was supposed to be dying not for all the misdeeds he had committed, not as justice for the beheading of Ned Stark, not for the torment he put Tyrion through, but just because he was in the way. He was removed because someone wanted him gone. Arya's comments on Joffrey's death were likely a reflection of how his death was intended to be received: she wanted to enjoy his death, but the fact that she couldn't made her unhappy.
 
I'd attribute that analysis to selective blinders. Remember having Littlefinger executed right in front of her until she changed her mind, just to demonstrate the blind loyalty of her bodyguards which she mistook for actual power? Remember having Ross beaten bloody because she thought she was Tyrion's personal whore and JUST wanted to see Tyrion hurt? Remember how she smiled when she mistakenly presumed his outrage towards her barbarism and her delight at upsetting him for him actually being upset by said savagery? Remember how casually she strode over dead bodies and strewn entrails of peasants whom, in her own words, were "so tiny [she] cannot see or hear" to go speak with Ser Gregor? Cersei is a complete sadist no less so than Ramsay, and she's equally open about it. The only real division between the two is that Ramsay doesn't discriminate with who he butchers, it's all fair fame, meanwhile Cersei largely targets particular individuals- mostly Tyrion, Sansa, and Margaery. Also Ramsay doesn't bother about getting his hands dirty, meanwhile Cersei takes the hypocritical high road of not having done the deeds herself despite commanding them to be done as presumption of making her a better person. No, Cersei and Ramsay are perfect parallels, and it confounds me every time I hear fans ponder out loud (either before Joffrey died contemplatively about the prospect of his death, or after he died and reflecting upon it) "Who do you think is the next most despicable person after Joffrey?" IT'S CERSEI!!!!! Cersei, without any semblance of a shadow of a fragment of a doubt. Cersei, 100%. She's vile to the utter core, and all because she wants to be.

Yes, Cersei is vile. But did she break a man? Did she create a slave out of a naïve young man, by destroying his spirit and removing almost every trace of his former self? Yes she is sadistic, but she doesn't revel as much in direct physical sadism. You said, 'remember how she smiled when she mistakenly presumed his outrage towards her barbarism and her delight at upsetting him for actually being upset by said savagery?' and this is where the key point lies. She upsets people. She sometimes doesn't care when people die, and can order it too. But upsetting people and allowing bad things to happen, and having a hand in them from mostly behind the scenes, is very different from personally torturing a man. Torturing to the point where his will breaks and the only thing on his mind is to obey, an animalistic survivalist attitude having taken over against any and all opposition. Even the appearance of a family member doesn't even bring a shred of doubt in his mind that he has any chance of breaking free. Turning him from man to animal, in a sense. Even when looking back, and being called out on it by your father, and look at it with glee, and no regret. To love ordering your new pet around. Now that's sadistic.

Meanwhile the worst thing Cersei did was scheme or order for people's deaths. Getting them killed, not killing them herself.
 
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Yes, but as the Hound (and most other characters, besides chiefly only Arya) would say, "a cowardly way to kill a man, a woman's way to kill". Cersei is far more vile because unlike Ramsay, she directs that sadism into manipulative schemes. Ramsay just butchers for butchery's sake, he doesn't think about it, he just does it. Cersei delights in the prospect.

She despises her husband so much that she kills her own trueborn son, passing it off as the child catching sickness and dying, then using the story to gain sympathy from someone to throw them off suspecting her of infanticide or, later on, assisted murder.

She arbitrarily determines to hate her youngest brother, so she physically tortures him while still an infant, and she's ONLY stopped by her twin brother. If not for Jaime, she would have continuously inflicted physical, irreparable harm to Tyrion without stopping. She has her spies find A whore she absent-mindedly decides must be his lover, and thusly has the whore tortured purely so she can upset him. She schemes to have him killed in a battle so his death, while a direct result of her hiring someone to kill him, would simply be attributed to the battle, rather than hired murder. She basks in every moment of his humiliation- the ONLY person to do so, while everyone else, no matter how much they may not like Tyrion, only find his harassment discomforting, and in bad taste. She focuses all of her hate in the moment of her eldest bastard child's death on Tyrion by proxy, convincing herself that he's guilty just because of her hate, not hating him because he's guilty. She tries to manipulate JAIME, of all people, to kill Tyrion for her. She pressures anyone she can use as a witness against Tyrion to falsify testimony against him. She's the one and only person to enjoy seeing the gruesome slaying of Oberyn Martell, despite how gut-wrenching it was, purely because this meant Tyrion was found guilty and sentenced to death. She immediately celebrated her "victory" by abandoning all of her promises to her father and returning to manipulating her twin brother. She nonchalantly discards Tyrion's identity as a faceless "disease" and disowns him as family.

She out of paranoia threatens the Captain of the City Guard into hunting down every bastard child of Robert and murder them, including infants, in order to secure her bastard son's claim on the throne.

She passes off all of her most deplorable of schemes as the machinations of Joffrey's uncontrollable will to those clever enough to realize she's the one behind those acts, hypocritically using his malice as a scapegoat while still working in his best interests at every opportunity.

Time after time after time, Cersei orchestrates violence because she has the position to allow her the freedom of others doing her dirty work for her, and no matter how often this blows up in her face, she keeps doing it! Oh, the bastard son you successfully protected the illegitimate claim of the throne for turns out to be untamable and kills the only bargaining chip to stop a costly war; well let's just keep throwing costs to the wind, then. Oh, your efforts to humiliate and kill Tyrion have backfired and he's well aware that you are behind every attempt on his life; well might as well keep trying to have him killed, then. Oh, your paranoid nature has just cost another invaluable alliance that without will cause the demise of your family, well let's just stay the course and keep severing important alliances anyway, then.

So Ramsay gets his hands dirty and doesn't EVER hire others to do his dirty work for him. So he tortures a person so methodically that he reduces him to a fractured shell of a human being, "an animal" as you put it. These are small potatoes next to the level of psychotic behavior displayed by Cersei. Worse yet, JUST like you are right now, people STILL feel like empathizing with the evil bitch, and that's the darkest attribute she has. Unlike the Mountain who is a beastial slayer of inhuman strength, Roose Bolton is a cold and calculating individual who is far more dangerous and treacherous, yet comes off as noble because of his scheming nature. Unlike Ramsay who's a disturbed brute who delights in sadistic behavior, Cersei is a cowardly schemer who irrationally lashes out at everyone around her, contentedly sitting on her position of power to abuse it every chance she gets, the far, far, far more dangerous person, and yet people still identify her as a lesser evil, perceiving her as regal and, at worst, "not as bad".

It's a lapse in judgment to not stop at distinction between killing and getting killed, and go so far as to separate those two things in different levels of psychotic behavior. They're equal, one's just direct and the other's indirect. And the list of people Cersei's gotten killed dwarfs the number of people Ramsay has gotten killed or personally killed, himself. Cersei is unquestionably the single-most vile human being without any equal in all of Game of Throne. Let's not forget, while everyone was "loving to hate" Joffrey, Cersei MADE Joffrey. SHE is the reason he developed into such a sociopathic, ruthless, peerless monster. He doesn't at all so much as measure up to the level of monstrosity of his mother...
 
Yes, but as the Hound (and most other characters, besides chiefly only Arya) would say, "a cowardly way to kill a man, a woman's way to kill". Cersei is far more vile because unlike Ramsay, she directs that sadism into manipulative schemes. Ramsay just butchers for butchery's sake, he doesn't think about it, he just does it. Cersei delights in the prospect

No he doesn't. You can clearly see in the series that Ramsay is only torturing the guy for his own pleasure. I mean, you'd have to stretch it very far to say that making two women undress for you, then coming in and cutting your dick of, which he mails to your father, is "just butchery for butchery's sake."

I'm not talking about who's more vile, but who's more sadistic. Of course Cersei is more vile. She had a far bigger impact as far as deaths and lives ruined go. Which you list in the rest of your post.
 
Yes, and that's all that matters. It appalls me that people would consider ANYONE besides Cersei as "the worst character in Game of Thrones", not "the most sadistic". Also, you're equating love of sadism with sadism, they're 2 different things. Cersei IS equally sadistic, she just doesn't express as much sheer glee at it as Ramsay does. But to be fair, I'm not just drawing from the show when I'm making these analyses. Book Ramsay and Show Ramsay are strikingly different people, with Show Ramsay being much, much nicer (believe it or not), but I'm not talking about the characters based on one or the other, I'm trying to discuss them as an amalgamation of their counterparts. The sum of their character. In that respect, even if Book Ramsay being far, far worse (more terrible than you can probably imagine), Cersei still beats him in every category, because Book Cersei is just that much worse, as well.

It's why I think it's a crying shame that they didn't bring back Kevan Lannister in the last 2 seasons, because he was epic when he'd put Cersei in her place. He wouldn't "control" her in the same was that Tywin would, of course; no one else could. But he had a position high enough that Cersei couldn't dare touch him, so when he'd insult Cersei, she had to sit there and take it. Oh, I loved it every time. Being a mother who loves her children is CONSTANTLY referred to as Cersei's redeeming quality, and Kevan would flat out say "You are a horrible mother" to her face. God I WANT THAT in the show!!!!!
 
I am not sure if I understand really many of the changes, to make it short, many of the characters seem to be much more questionable and in general "worse" in the books compared to the show, no clue how much or in which way, but in general Tyrion is portrayed as a rather good character in the show - at least I would see him as one considering the family. But from what I can read on some wiki, he seems to care a lot less about the life of others in the books, compared to the show at least, not to mention the ending of the last season and how Tyrion parted with his brother, it was a much different tone in the books. To say this, a lot less friendly. I guess they really dont want to, ask to much from the viewer, I guess. Game of Thrones has its fare share of violent and evil characters, quite a lot to be honest, since even the supposed good people are quite often doing questionable things.
 
It's not universal, at least. Some characters were "worse" in the Books, some were "better", but for the most part the show made the characters more likeable..... for the MOST part. Show Jon Snow is a WAY bigger cry baby and snob than Book Jon Snow ever was, and stayed that way for much, much longer. Book Tyrion cared about the well-being of others, just mostly in a pragmatic sense, and much less "saintly". He never took advantage of Sansa, and was very considerate towards her despite the fact that she was a total bitch to him. They pretty much nailed Ned, with the exception that (not unlike with Jon Snow) they didn't showcase his craftiness as much, but otherwise he was portrayed almost identically in both mediums. Fans are split on whether Show Tywin was a bigger cunt than Book Tywin or whether the shows made him out to be a real bawss instead.
 
In the books Joffrey and Cersei are basically little Hitler and female Stalin, unlike in the show where it's more like Satan and helpless wench. Also Thenns are relatively sophisticated and not cannibals.
 
I have mixed feelings about the Thenns, they are kinda awesome in the show but they are in stark contrast to their portrayal in the books, which threw me off a bit. It seems like the fourth season changes much more than before. I'm unsure if I like it or not. It definitely keeps it interesting for people who read the books.
 
What I really hated about Cersei was the fact that she is so damned arrogant. I understand that a lot of bad shit happened to her. Its a minor spoiler but one of the books reveals that she had truly tried her best to make the marriage to Robert work. Problem was Robert was obsessed with the Stark girl (forgot which one), and even said her name while Cersei and him were in bed together.

But yea, back to the damned arrogance coupled with sheer stupidity. Instead of looking at the bigger picture. she continually makes impulsive, short sighted judgements. She is certain these are the correct paths even though they blow up in her face time and time again. In a way of speaking, she is more cartoonishly evil than any kind of real life bad guy.
 
The Thenns are badass. They had some great screen presence in the show. I mean, if the wildlings are pretty badass, and they hate the Thenns, what must these guys be like? That was the first impression they gave me.

God I would love a turn based tactical GoT game. I would have a hard time choosing a side, if you could choose.
 
Yeah, but they make the other wildlings look like wusses. These Thenns seem like great fun and should have got on well with the other wildlings (I think they were disliked for being too uptight and fanatical in the books).
 
What I really hated about Cersei was the fact that she is so damned arrogant. I understand that a lot of bad shit happened to her. Its a minor spoiler but one of the books reveals that she had truly tried her best to make the marriage to Robert work. Problem was Robert was obsessed with the Stark girl (forgot which one), and even said her name while Cersei and him were in bed together.

But yea, back to the damned arrogance coupled with sheer stupidity. Instead of looking at the bigger picture. she continually makes impulsive, short sighted judgements. She is certain these are the correct paths even though they blow up in her face time and time again. In a way of speaking, she is more cartoonishly evil than any kind of real life bad guy.
How... HOW can you forget Lyanna? For a character who has ALWAYS been dead since the beginning of the story (not including the side stories that explore older and more recent histories of Westeros) she's a major character in the entire series. I mean, just considering the fact that she [censored] with [censored] alone, which means that she's [censored] has HUGE implications for [censored]! Also she was a total badass, all the more reason you can't forget her!

But eh, Cersei "trying to make it work" with her arranged marriage to Robert wasn't nearly as humble as some make it out to be. She was ALWAYS obsessed with becoming Queen, ever since she was a little girl, and she never once considered what that meant, or even cared. She was always driven by her own personal vampirism, and that only ever changed once she gave birth to her bastards. Even then, it wasn't a change for the better. She just went from being a warped parasite to a warped disease carrier; she wouldn't take from her children for her gain at their cost, but she would do things that would be horrible for their well being. Case in point, making Joffrey into the monster he was.

The Thenns are badass. They had some great screen presence in the show. I mean, if the wildlings are pretty badass, and they hate the Thenns, what must these guys be like? That was the first impression they gave me.
Well that's a consequence of a combination of changes made to characters and keeping other details intact. For example, in the books other wildlings DO hate the Thenns, but not for the reasons depicted in the show. Show Thenns were "too extreme" to the rest of the Free Folk, meanwhile Book Thenns were "too Southron" for the rest of the Free Folk.

Another example of changing things and keeping other things the same is the Show character Ser Meryn Trant (the guy who obeyed Joffrey diligently and never once hesitated to beat the shit out of Sansa on Joffrey's order) is a combination of several book characters. Book Meryn Trant isn't as deplorable of an asshole, he's just a coward. Show Meryn Trant is a combination of a cowardly Kingsguard, another asshole Kingsguard, and a few other characters. So the end result of "changing" his character by combining several into one, and yet "keeping intact" those various chracteristics that were combined, we're left with a different character that leaves a dramatically extreme impression on viewers, while not discarding the important purposes of the characters that got blended in.

There are cannibalistic and "extreme" Free Folk, and they were combined into the Thenns for the show. Unless they ditch one of the major plot points that displays Jon Snow's cunning, the 5th seasons is either going to use a different group of wildlings, or they may just use the hierarchical structure of the Thenns to explain how now that their leader, the Magnar, is dead, the rest of them will change drastically once a new Magnar replaces him. That's just my theory, anyway.
 
Well a lot to do with Lyanna is conjecture, such as the Tower Of Joy incident. The hunka chunka doesn't guarantee a woman gets knocked up.
 
I am not sure if I understand really many of the changes, to make it short, many of the characters seem to be much more questionable and in general "worse" in the books compared to the show, no clue how much or in which way, but in general Tyrion is portrayed as a rather good character in the show - at least I would see him as one considering the family. But from what I can read on some wiki, he seems to care a lot less about the life of others in the books, compared to the show at least, not to mention the ending of the last season and how Tyrion parted with his brother, it was a much different tone in the books. To say this, a lot less friendly. I guess they really dont want to, ask to much from the viewer, I guess. Game of Thrones has its fare share of violent and evil characters, quite a lot to be honest, since even the supposed good people are quite often doing questionable things.

He's much more grey, yeah. He murders people, doesn't overly care about Pod and his entire relationship with Shae is much more questionable, for a start. I was fine with it because they needed a ''good guy'' in King's Landing other than Sansa. But I disliked how they handled the final scene with Jaime. What they say to each other there drive their character arcs for the next two books and beyond. It's a crucial scene. In the show they just say ''kthxbye'' and that's it. They can't still mend it, but I don't know for the life of me figure out why they changed that excellent bit of writing at all.

Cercei is also worse in the books, as is Renly (who's also been wimpified in GoT, sadly). On the other hand, they worsened Stannis and Joffrey. And they had Jaime do a few random acts of evil for no real reason.
 
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