I dont often get excited about these projects. I hear about so many, but no news of their completion on mainstream release ever comes. Reading about this one, I am actually quite interested. Can anyone tell me if you think these guys actually have a chance of releasing it?
Age of Decadence interview at RPGDot
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SuAside, I don't think you understand what audience they are targetting. AoD is a low-budget indie project aimed at fans of classic CRPGs - a small group of people that don't much care for expensive mainstream titles like NWN and Oblivion and don't give a damn about fancy graphics. In other words, AoD isn't a game that is going to sell millions of copies, win awards or get a four-page review in PC Gamer.
With that in mind, AoD visuals are adequate. They could use some improvements (a few shaders wouldn't hurt), but even in its current state AoD is a match for any indie project. It certainly looks better than Geneforge, likely the most successful indie CRPG:
As far as I can tell, Prelude to Darkness doesn't look better either:
Conclusion: AoD has competitive graphics.
With that in mind, AoD visuals are adequate. They could use some improvements (a few shaders wouldn't hurt), but even in its current state AoD is a match for any indie project. It certainly looks better than Geneforge, likely the most successful indie CRPG:
As far as I can tell, Prelude to Darkness doesn't look better either:
Conclusion: AoD has competitive graphics.
VDweller
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Didn't he bitch about everything? ("...that doesnt mean you can pass off a game looking like some amateur mod without any graphic talent." )SpeaK said:
As for the interface, it doesn't bother me at all. I like it.
Something here tells me you don't like the GUI. Yes, I'm a psychic. So, why won't you design something and post it here? If your idea is good, I'll consider using it. Fair enough?
jezus fucking h christ...
@ the NMA oldies:
yes, i'm bloody well fucking aware it's aimed at a niche. i said it, didnt i? i also said this seemed to have a lot of potential & it would probably work quite good on a larger audience if they'd pay a little more attention to graphics & clean up what they already have.
@ VDweller:
man, you sure know how to motivate people to help you! i applaud thee.
@ SpeaK:
thanks for the voice of reason, but it's a futile attempt, dont get caught in the crossfire on my account. it's true that shaping up the UI (while keeping the layout of the info itself) would greatly enhance the game, but hey, they dont seem to want anyone to express any honnest opinions except "omigawd, it like totally pwnz. sure graphics suck but indie roxxorz your boxxorz! zomg, fight the power". if you do they'll ignore you or serve you a witty "zomg do it yourself nuub".
@ the NMA oldies:
yes, i'm bloody well fucking aware it's aimed at a niche. i said it, didnt i? i also said this seemed to have a lot of potential & it would probably work quite good on a larger audience if they'd pay a little more attention to graphics & clean up what they already have.
@ VDweller:
man, you sure know how to motivate people to help you! i applaud thee.
@ SpeaK:
thanks for the voice of reason, but it's a futile attempt, dont get caught in the crossfire on my account. it's true that shaping up the UI (while keeping the layout of the info itself) would greatly enhance the game, but hey, they dont seem to want anyone to express any honnest opinions except "omigawd, it like totally pwnz. sure graphics suck but indie roxxorz your boxxorz! zomg, fight the power". if you do they'll ignore you or serve you a witty "zomg do it yourself nuub".
Cut the drama, SuAside, you know very well that that's bullshit.SuAside said:
My *personal* (as opposed to the position of the elusive 'they' you're referring to)position is that updating the graphics isn't needed, because that really won't attract any new buyers (no one who buys games for graphics is going to buy this game), and the graphics aren't going to be improved to a point where they're not going to turn off people already turned off within the timespan they have. Plus, it would take a lot of trouble.
As for the UI, as I've said, there have been many, many games with worse UIs, and I actually like the way this one looks.
Vault Dweller also likes his own UI, and he is hence not going to change it (pretty damned obvious), unless someone comes up with a better design. Why? Because obviously he can't design a better one, or he would have.
"Indie" and "larger audience" are mutually exclusive.SuAside said:
My impression is that your opinions have been noted and disregarded. Probably because many people like the interface. Imagine that!
Which is a perfectly rational response, since you apparently chose to ignore all arguments about necessity and feasibility of redoing the visuals of a game that is being developed by a team of four people with no funding and aimed at a market where its competition is a handful of titles that look comparatively worse.
Patently untrue, at least outside of the game industry. Especially in movies, where Clerks is one of the most famous, low budget and crappy graphical-work succesful indie titles.Ratty said:
I was referring to the game industry specifically (since that's, like, the subject here). As for the movie industry, I don't know much about it, so I'll take your word for it.Sander said:
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
Why don't we want anyone to express honest opinions? A discussion needs two sides, you were expressing yours and we were expressing ours, i don't get the "omg they are opressing us" teen angst. Quite out of place, actually.
And VDweller simply said that if anyone can find a better way to do it fine, he'll be open to see the result. But in Ratty's words
Dude, wrong side of the bed today or what?
Obviously, graphics matter. That’s why HL2 and Oblivion sold in the millions. And cost millions to make.
Iron tower actually switched from 2d iso to 3d because the graphic whores didn’t give the game enough attention. And added both time and money to the game, that is financed 100% out of VD’s pocket. I’m willing to bet if he could afford to throw money at graphics he would. There will always be a cut-off in interest for people due to graphics. If he had silent storm level quality graphics, all the people that think SS looks like shit and won’t play a game as non-fancy as that wouldn’t buy it. If he made it as good as Oblivion, he would obviously be a big developer and then see the archaic savage gameplay and stupid gay TB combat wouldn’t allow enough units of the game to sell well enough to justify the money they spent on improving the graphics so much.
Its called a cost/benefit analysis. Would better graphics benefit this game enough to justify the cost? What you guys are saying about the graphics is irrelevant. Why not just spread the word, hoping the game sells well, and that VD can afford to have better graphics in part 2, and that word of mouth will have created enough hype to make part two on par with civgal 2 and space rangers 2 B title status and fan following. I don’t want to wait another fucking year for this game. And I’m old enough and care about grahics little nough that I hope part two comes out six months after and just reuses all the same resources. Same for parts 3 to 700. After part 700 comes out I don’t care if he wastes time improving graphics.
Ratty,
I wouldn’t sell the game so short as to say it will only have the appeal that PtD and Spiderweb games have. I wouldn’t call his market hard core either, unless people of normal intelligence are now considered hardcore rpgers. I guess spiderweb games sell about 5k units, I think the improved graphics, strategic combat, and gameplay that seems like it (from what we know from the interviews) goes beyond geneforge and avernum, he might be looking at significantly higher sales. This could be the breath that breathes life into the indy scene. Couple games like this, with what Troika’s McCarthy is doing on his squad sci-fi game, and the independence and high returns going around publishers give developers, and who knows? Maybe Tim and Leonard might be able to continue on the post-apoc game they were making before troika closed. Maybe Afterfall will get funding (I hope). And maybe real rpgs will start being made on a regular basis again.
Here is a totally useless but true observation for Suaside: if I made amateur porn, it would sell better if Pam Anderson was in it. If Hammer & Sickle had better graphics and RT combat it would have sold better too. If I was Catherine Zeta Jones I would probably get a lot more attention from guys. If Opra was hot and did her show naked it would probably get better ratings. VD designed a whole game, I think he’s bright enough to not be looking at his screenshots of AoD going, “Motherfuckin shit niggas! These motherfuckin graphics are the bombdiggity. Snap yo, this shit doesn’t even need shaders or AA, these graphics are smoking hot and are going to sell this game like motherfuckin hotcakes, dog. Bicthes will be runnin for miles just to catch of glimpse of these shiznellel graphics.” I’m guessing he knows that compared to AAA titles, or even B titles, his graphics suck. But compared to every other independent rpg I’ve seen, they are pretty fucking great. It looks like his team put a lot of hard work into them, looking at the animations, and just the overall design and quality. They might not be fancy smancy graphics, but they seem to be pretty high quality graphics, to me at least. Anyways, pull you’re your mommy’s titty out your mouth and stop being such a whiney bitch.
Iron tower actually switched from 2d iso to 3d because the graphic whores didn’t give the game enough attention. And added both time and money to the game, that is financed 100% out of VD’s pocket. I’m willing to bet if he could afford to throw money at graphics he would. There will always be a cut-off in interest for people due to graphics. If he had silent storm level quality graphics, all the people that think SS looks like shit and won’t play a game as non-fancy as that wouldn’t buy it. If he made it as good as Oblivion, he would obviously be a big developer and then see the archaic savage gameplay and stupid gay TB combat wouldn’t allow enough units of the game to sell well enough to justify the money they spent on improving the graphics so much.
Its called a cost/benefit analysis. Would better graphics benefit this game enough to justify the cost? What you guys are saying about the graphics is irrelevant. Why not just spread the word, hoping the game sells well, and that VD can afford to have better graphics in part 2, and that word of mouth will have created enough hype to make part two on par with civgal 2 and space rangers 2 B title status and fan following. I don’t want to wait another fucking year for this game. And I’m old enough and care about grahics little nough that I hope part two comes out six months after and just reuses all the same resources. Same for parts 3 to 700. After part 700 comes out I don’t care if he wastes time improving graphics.
Ratty,
I wouldn’t sell the game so short as to say it will only have the appeal that PtD and Spiderweb games have. I wouldn’t call his market hard core either, unless people of normal intelligence are now considered hardcore rpgers. I guess spiderweb games sell about 5k units, I think the improved graphics, strategic combat, and gameplay that seems like it (from what we know from the interviews) goes beyond geneforge and avernum, he might be looking at significantly higher sales. This could be the breath that breathes life into the indy scene. Couple games like this, with what Troika’s McCarthy is doing on his squad sci-fi game, and the independence and high returns going around publishers give developers, and who knows? Maybe Tim and Leonard might be able to continue on the post-apoc game they were making before troika closed. Maybe Afterfall will get funding (I hope). And maybe real rpgs will start being made on a regular basis again.
Here is a totally useless but true observation for Suaside: if I made amateur porn, it would sell better if Pam Anderson was in it. If Hammer & Sickle had better graphics and RT combat it would have sold better too. If I was Catherine Zeta Jones I would probably get a lot more attention from guys. If Opra was hot and did her show naked it would probably get better ratings. VD designed a whole game, I think he’s bright enough to not be looking at his screenshots of AoD going, “Motherfuckin shit niggas! These motherfuckin graphics are the bombdiggity. Snap yo, this shit doesn’t even need shaders or AA, these graphics are smoking hot and are going to sell this game like motherfuckin hotcakes, dog. Bicthes will be runnin for miles just to catch of glimpse of these shiznellel graphics.” I’m guessing he knows that compared to AAA titles, or even B titles, his graphics suck. But compared to every other independent rpg I’ve seen, they are pretty fucking great. It looks like his team put a lot of hard work into them, looking at the animations, and just the overall design and quality. They might not be fancy smancy graphics, but they seem to be pretty high quality graphics, to me at least. Anyways, pull you’re your mommy’s titty out your mouth and stop being such a whiney bitch.
VDweller
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Yeah, when people respectfully disagree with you, it could only mean that they don't want your honest opinion.SuAside said:
Anyway, all opinions and criticism are welcome, but I reserve the right to disagree and have my own opinion. Am I being unreasonable here?
As Sander pointed out, I can't design a better one because I think that this one is fine. I do, however, realize that someone might have a better idea, in which case, I'll gladly consider it. Obviousy, I need to see this awesome vision, and "uh, dude, polish it a bit" comments are meaningless.
Here is an example:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=210361#210361
'they' was refering to the people in the project, not you...Sander said:
this is about the last comment i expected from youSander said:
so, it's fine because there is worse? god i love that reasoning.
how does one learn? by listening to other people i believe (and afterwards forming your own opinion on what is valid or not, but shooting stuff down in advance isnt very useful is it?)Sander said:
actually no Ratty, the rational response would be "o rly? what can be improved then & how?"Ratty said:
thats what a member of a serious project ought to do (or so they've been ramming into my skull for years on end in the project lead & teamwork courses). ignoring a comment or simply saying 'do it yourself' doesnt work. why? because either you ignore a potentially valid comment or you ask someone to do something for which he doesnt have the skill in 99.9999% of the time (or doesnt have the time in 0.0001%).
it doesnt work that way. you develop software, do some publicity, speak to a potential client & say "do it yourself & we'll use it if you do it better"? i bet that would give some laughs in the industry.
@ Briosa
my problem here is the uptight mindset. sets me off every time.
@ Roqua:
you seemed reasonable enough until you mentioned my mommy... dude, you must be so cool irl. can i please touch you?
why sure, there are 2 people who disagree more or less. you call one a bitch & make fun of the other.VDweller said:
i dont know if that passes as respectfully disagreeing in your parts, but it doesnt here.
but let us leave it at that... it's a waste of both our time.
Thanks for cutting out the rest of the sentence, where I say that I like the UI.SuAside said:
Also thanks for ignoring the context, since we were talking about how succesful a game would be, and my remark in that context would mean that UI design doesn't really factor into success.
I can't recall him not listening to the opinion of others. In fact, I've seen at least one thread where people offered new designs for UIs competlely uncalled for, and he considered them all rationally (I can't recall whether he adopted one).Sander said:
Which is so different from 'show me a new design' how?
This is completely different, which you should well know. Any normal software designer takes into account criticisms, yes, but when people offer up such useless things as 'polish it' (compare it to 'make it faster, I don't like it this slow'), no software designer is going to take that seriously.
I haven't seen him call you a bitch or make fun of you, aside from his first sarcastic comment. He used the word bitch ones in the meaning of 'whining' or 'commenting on', in a valid context and a valid way, so your bitching about his insulting you is pretty silly.VDweller said:
Great concept. The system looks great too. The graphics are a little low end, but that's not a fault of the modeling really, the poly counts are fine, the animation good, the characters actually very well done. Graphically, as I see it, there are only two things holding it back. Lighting: you can see all the characters look exactly the same in the game world, the lighting is fairly non-existant. Lighting does a HUGE number on how realistic the game world looks. The other problem is detail, the maps are inspired in terms of architecture, they really fit the game world well, but the problem is detail. The maps are fairly empty, one of the things I learned while doing maps for HL2 and Heroes of Might and Magic (fun game, really) is that the best way to make a map look good is to flood the eye with detail. Debris here, grime there, it all goes a very long way to how it looks to the viewer.
But like has been said before me, graphics don't mean everything. They're the candy and the wow that pulls people into a game often, but no amount of shineyness keeps them there. Gameplay is ultimate and first. Good job, man, I look forward to it's release.
But like has been said before me, graphics don't mean everything. They're the candy and the wow that pulls people into a game often, but no amount of shineyness keeps them there. Gameplay is ultimate and first. Good job, man, I look forward to it's release.
VDweller
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Really? I wish someone told me that before.SuAside said:
That, of course, would imply that the project wasn't discussed and evaluated at the Codex for at least a year and that I didn't listen and implemented many suggestions that were made.
And again, I didn't shoot anything down in advance, but generic opinions like "everything sucks" or "polish the GUI" aren't very informative, are they?
See above, take a look at the forums, before you start jumping to silly conclusions.
I expect someone who wants to be taken seriously to explain in the first post what's wrong, why, and his suggestions how to fix. Anything else is pretty much useless.
Excuse me for not agreeing with your point of view. That was wrong. And uptight. Like, totally.
In a word: huh?
We finally agree on something.
VDweller
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Thanks.PhredBean said:
It's in, but currently disabled.
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9460
This thread has some screens with lighting on.
Sorry, the what? I don't believe we've posted any maps yet. Can you clarify?
Have you see the town model? It's pretty detailed, no? There are broken and fixed walls, debries, a little tent town outside, etc.
Here are more screens:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11361&start=0
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10604&start=0
VDweller, try not to double post, the edit button exists for a reason. I know it's a common thing to do on the Codex, but we really dislike it. If you want your post to show up as new, one thing you can do is delete your previous post (while copying the contents), then posting again with the content of the old post and your new post in it.
Also, those leaves on the trees are weirding me out. They look pretty ridiculous.
Also, those leaves on the trees are weirding me out. They look pretty ridiculous.
VDweller
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
My bad, won't do it again.Sander said: