Amercians, anti-communist/socialist?

[Crni Vuk]

so many US experts in here ... my head explodes

I living in the US. I'm an expert.

Living somewhere doesnt make someone inherently a expert about the location. It helps yes. But still. But I am just saying in general.

To many confuse "oppinion" with "fact" or to say it that way seem not to be bothered about that their "facts" are in conflict with certain research or nothing more like generalisations of things you can read or see in the media. I think there are a lot of places and universtities where you can study american history, culture, economy etc. and such. Those are experts eventualy. People posting on forums without education or at least not reading books (about that specific field) are just explaining their oppinion. Well it seems to me at least. I think one of the few people here that studied something like American History ( no clue how long ) was Brother None.

When I say without education though I dont mean it in a negative manner. I am talking about it from a academic point of view. Spending 2-3 years on a collegue, writting essays and what ever else is needed today to get your paper is of different quality compared to someone that gets most of his knowledge from the internet and wikipeda eventualy mixed with popular knowledge/stereotypes (american thoughts about socilaism = comunism ). I am not trying to be inteligent here. Just saying. Doesnt mean you cant be a expert without visiting a universtiy there are many real self-educated people out there but this kind of trait is quite rare.

I am a European for example to but I dont believe this Americans are unedcuated or unwillingly to learn about new cultures and such nonsense many here seem to think and believe. Do American citizens have in general a different look and feeling, do they have issues and differences that feel "american" ? Probably. I dont know it that well thats the part where one would have to spend some time with the people there and see how diverse the nation really is. But I doubt the usual american is more or less stupid then the usual German or European in general.

 

[pipboy-x11]

We dont mind because we know that EVERY human being deserve health and respect

Care to elaborate why? Every human being should take care of his own fate. If he isn't - bad for him.

If you move to another country - you should consider all possibilities, pros and contras, think ahead if you should do it or not. If you just don't care - you are not entitled to anything.

 

[CloudlessDruid]

I agree with Sander and Crni, and probably I too got into popular knowledge/stereotypes when dealing with americans x socialism.

And @Crni:
I think most of people here are good at something. I myself study economy in the university, and read tons and tons of books about european and latin american history and geopolitics. Probably, as you said, few here can really start saying things as an expert here about American History, America Healthcare ,or Americans as general. But whenever you study something in some area, and then a debate starts in another area of knowledge kind of close to your area, you get tempted to talk about it, even if you don't really detains the knowledge to do so. So its quite common to people to fall in common generalizations and common stereotypes in these cases.


Of course, as I did (wrongly) telling people how they think is wrong, specially when you are using poplar misconception to do this.

edit:

Care to elaborate why? Every human being should take care of his own fate. If he isn't - bad for him.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 25.

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The US signed it

 

[pipboy-x11]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Are you going to cite the Bible as well?

"including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services"... do you seriously believe that everyone entitled to all of that for free?

 

[CloudlessDruid]

the US didnt signed the bible.

And yes,I believed everyone should be entitled to that

 

[pipboy-x11]

And yes,I believed everyone should be entitled to that

And the point of doing anything then... what is it exactly?

I am from the country which suffered from this syndrome for 70 years or so and I can see results. Nobody - seriously - just fucking nobody! wants to work. All everyone can think about is just making quick money from stealing or cheating. Everyone thinks that if things are broken, it's up to omnipresent "them" to solve problems. Recent polls show that only 2% (yes, exactly - two percent) of Russians think that better future for them will be a result of their own actions, work etc. The rest put their faith in government, their employer and so on.

That's what a prolonged exposure to communist/socialist ideas does to once prosperous nations. Good luck with your path.

 

[Sander]

And the point of doing anything then... what is it exactly?

I am from the country which suffered from this syndrome for 70 years or so and I can see results. Nobody - seriously - just fucking nobody! wants to work. All everyone can think about is just making quick money from stealing or cheating. Everyone thinks that if things are broken, it's up to omnipresent "them" to solve problems. Recent polls show that only 2% (yes, exactly - two percent) of Russians think that better future for them will be a result of their own actions, work etc. The rest put their faith in government, their employer and so on.

That's what a prolonged exposure to communist/socialist ideas does to once prosperous nations. Good luck with your path.

Basic human rights are not the same as overwhelming communist principles. A right to housing, food and medical care is not the same as a right to everything and it does not even remotely resemble the Soviet state you're speaking of. Incentives abound as people always want more and better luxury good - they want a bigger house, a better car (or any car), better computers, more books, expensive holidays and so forth.

All Western-European welfare states work on those principles, and they're doing fine.

You're trying to draw a line from providing basic care to providing everything for everyone. That is clearly nonsense.

 

[CloudlessDruid]

That's what a prolonged exposure to communist/socialist ideas does to once prosperous nations

huh, 19th century russia, a prosperous nation? Whats exactly your concept of prosperous?

 

[TwoEyedYum]

huh, 19th century russia, a prosperous nation? Whats exactly your concept of prosperous?

Can't give ypu proper concept, but i'm pretty sure that pipboy meant "Russian Empire was MORE prosperous than USSR". I won't argue about which one was stronger at military, but in R-Empire you would see many rich people. In USSR prosperity was given to several guys, all other were dipped in shit.
Sorry my english, i'm from post-USSR country too.

 

[victor]

Well, ultra-oppressive serfdom is prosperous to the ruling class, after all.

I love how some people claim their country was such a better place during the 18th/19th centuries (we have that here too) as if they would be some kind of noble if they had lived back then. PROTIP: you would've been a dirty shitfarming peasant, just like 90% of the people back then.

 

[Sander]

Can't give ypu proper concept, but i'm pretty sure that pipboy meant "Russian Empire was MORE prosperous than USSR". I won't argue about which one was stronger at military, but in R-Empire you would see many rich people. In USSR prosperity was given to several guys, all other were dipped in shit.
Sorry my english, i'm from post-USSR country too.

The USSR wasn't great, but there's a reason why the revolution happened. It wasn't 'oh this place rocks let's try communism'. It was more 'oh fuck this sucks why not'.

Well, ultra-oppressive serfdom is prosperous to the ruling class, after all.

I love how some people claim their country was such a better place during the 18th/19th centuries (we have that here too) as if they would be some kind of noble if they had lived back then. PROTIP: you would've been a dirty shitfarming peasant, just like 90% of the people back then.

Especially in the shithole that was 19th century Russia. Western Europe wasn't as bad, but Russia was terrible and serfdom was a real burden on Russian society that never really got resolved during the 19th century.

 

[Crni Vuk]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Are you going to cite the Bible as well?

"including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services"... do you seriously believe that everyone entitled to all of that for free?

Please dont be silly here. You just know as everyone else here that even if you decide to move to other nations (legal or not ) you can always get in situations you had no choice about.

But how many people are beeing abused, hurted or wrong treaten without their own fault. Those people are human beeings and as such they have basic rights. When you find some ilegal aliens that have been tortured by some crime organisation (happens many times with females as they are forced in prostitution) you have to grant them the same kind of rights and offer help as you would to everyone else of course. Particularly if they are not able to do that by them self. And in most situations if you find them in such harsh situations they cant. How should they without a job, beeing mentaly or physicaly eventualy abused and left without personal papers in a foreign nation.

Like Sander explained already very nicely. Communism is not equal to allowing someone basic human rights.

 

[victor]

"including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services"... do you seriously believe that everyone entitled to all of that for free?

So what the hell is the point of having a society, if it doesn't give basic care to its members? Go live on your own in a cave without any other human contact, let's see how long you last. Even chimpanzees care for their weak and sick. If you want to regress back to feudal Europe, be my guest, but do it without dragging everyone else down with you.

 

[shihonage]

We Russians made the mistake in 1917 of thinking that two wrongs make a right.

This the same type of thinking that got Obama elected and summoned the healthcare bill into existence.

Yes, healthcare system needs work, but asking a know-nothing, inexperienced in the real world, affirmative-action, Oprah-elected "President" to fix it reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy".

 

[CloudlessDruid]

but in R-Empire you would see many rich people. In USSR prosperity was given to several guys, all other were dipped in shit.

I can bet my balls that the shit life that the russian peasants lived in the 19th century was far worse than the shit life of the average russian man. (didnt meant that life in communism was good either)

I love how some people claim their country was such a better place during the 18th/19th centuries (we have that here too) as if they would be some kind of noble if they had lived back then. PROTIP: you would've been a dirty shitfarming peasant, just like 90% of the people back then.

yeah, agreed. People see too many white knights in shining armor movies. Most people at that time lived like animals. Specially in Russia.

Yes, healthcare system needs work, but asking a know-nothing, inexperienced in the real world, affirmative-action, Oprah-elected "President" to fix it reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy".

well, this Oprah-like president was the first with the guts to do so since Reagan fucked things up. And in my opinion its still to early to say if he is a idiot really. In ten years or so we'll see.

 

[TheGM]

That there Communism is bad because a Fat Drug Addict Radio host a No Chin Having Alcholic TV douche told me to think that. I have no way of forming my own opinnion and so I must fear socailism out of ignorance...

Also....I don't want the Government messing with my Social Security and Medicare.

I hear that so much it isn't even funny anymore...

Yes, healthcare system needs work, but asking a know-nothing, inexperienced in the real world, affirmative-action, Oprah-elected "President" to fix it reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy".

Well the last one was elected becuase people wanted have a beer with him and gay people are evil and wanted to marry.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

How about the other issue? Who pay for the illegals now? They don't have insurance, but they go to hopsital. Who paying for that, now? What is the garantee they don't spend the taxpayer's money on illegal aliens' health care, like they do now? What if they give amnesty to all the illegal aliens? All the people pay for 30,000,000 "former" illegal aliens? That is just not gonna work. Impossible.

Actually with socialized healthcare, the poor illegal immigrants would pay for at least a portion of their healthcare rather than none due to taxes, well, assuming they're above the poverty line. It's really a stupid thing to bring up in the discussion since the cost of illegal immigrants for the state isn't going to change.

But I have a really bad feeling about this, not because the national health care is a bad thing, but because I don't think the government can do it right.

Of course because the US government has never effectively run a socialized medical program before... oh wait, I'm forgetting about that tiny program known as Medicare.

Well there is a chronic misunderstanding of what socialism is in America. I put it down to the horrible state their education system is in and also the hangover of the Cold War.

Pretty much. Keep in mind that the US is at the bottom of the education scale of first world countries. Most Americans don't even know what socialism or communism is, they simply know that the US was "fighting against it" in the Cold War because it was "bad/evil". When you start actually talking about socialized programs, people do not want any of them to go. That fact that I've known people who just vote as their party tells them to (they literally look at their party's stance on candidates and legislation and vote how they are told) is disgusting, the fact that I've known many of them is just plain depressing. It's why the US needs to institute a test that people must pass in order to vote.

I don't agree. The US is now if you are a citizen or a legal immigrant, you must work, pay the taxes, but don't get anything free. If you are illegal immigrant, you can get things for free, though you don't pay taxes. ILLEGAL means criminal. Why should people respect criminals?

Just think about it. People working hard, they are citizens, but their families get nothing. On the other hand a guy crosses the border with his family, he doen't pay taxes, but his family members get free health care and even they don't pay taxes and they are literally criminals, their children can go to public schools. They braking the law, and they get free health care for it. Crazy world.

First off, illegal immigrants do work, assuming that they have a place of residence, at least pay (or pay into if they rent) property tax. For every state with sales tax, they pay that. For those that don't get paid under the table (which is a far more significant number than some would have you think), they pay income tax if they make enough money, and social security regardless. You also place the blame on the immigrant who migrates to where they can get work for the best pay and live the best rather than the employers who hire them. Cut off employment for illegal immigrants and you cut off the immigration. Also refusing to give people medical care who need it is extremely unethical and, in pretty much every morality system, especially Christianity's (to which the majority of Americans claim to subscribe), immoral.

Else, its not true you dont get anyting free. You have free education. You have safety (police is paid with tax money). You really have goverment support for lots of things.

You get nothing for free, taxes pay for the vast majority of "free" services out there. Personally, I think that the transportation budget should always be cut first when there are budget shortfalls.

Yes, healthcare system needs work, but asking a know-nothing, inexperienced in the real world, affirmative-action, Oprah-elected "President" to fix it reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy".

You do realize that he consults experts about this stuff, right? You also realize that he can't actually propose any legislation? And you also realize that every president hasn't been an expert on everything, right? He's more experienced than Bush Jr. and Regan.

I have no way of forming my own opinnion and so I must fear socailism out of ignorance...

Also....I don't want the Government messing with my Social Security and Medicare.

Hahaha, the irony of that always makes me chuckle and die a bit inside.

 

[pipboy-x11]

huh, 19th century russia, a prosperous nation?

Compared to what? To 19th century Brazil? Wanna bet?

Seriously, even in 1970s communists still made a lot of bragging comparing quality of life to 1913. "The Soviet industry produced X% more of this and Y% more of that compared to 1913".

It's hilarious how people here talk about 19th century Russia like they have any idea about its history.

BTW, even if someone really thinks that he has an idea of how pre-revolution Russia looked like, he could ask himself - if everyone had such a miserable life here before Soviets - something that you guys seem to believe... why the revolution has lead to 7 years of Civilian war? Why almost all the population of Russian south and Siberia, consisting mostly of Cossacks (who were basically farmers with arms, living on the frontier and free of slavery for centuries) didn't exactly welcomed the revolution? Some regions and peoples, like Terek Cossacks, became victims of genocide because they couldn't be pacified. One may also consider looking up the term "kulak" as well - and why them, those rich peasants, were considered a danger for revolution and have been subjected to extermination.

Concerning what Russia looked like before the 1917 - one who reads Russian could look at the wiki entry. Especially at the part that tells us about 13th times growth in industry in the 1861-1913 period. About positive balance in the foreign trade. And many others.

Or you may consider listening to those of your leftists who tell you horror stories about life of poor Russian peasants before the Soviet state took care of their needs. I couldn't care less, actually.

 

[pipboy-x11]

PROTIP: you would've been a dirty shitfarming peasant, just like 90% of the people back then.

Well, didn't think about that, but since you've mentioned - I know my ancestors since 18th century and they were not exactly "shitfarming peasants".

So what the hell is the point of having a society, if it doesn't give basic care to its members? Go live on your own in a cave without any other human contact, let's see how long you last. Even chimpanzees care for their weak and sick.

For their weak and sick - that's right. Like I care about my family, my parents, my brother and friends. Not about some random bum from the street. I'm not expecting that some random person from the street should care about me or my relatives either. If you ever have a chance to talk with chimpanzee if he cares about happiness of all chimpanzees in the world - I bet he will answer you that he doesn't give a flying fuck. No wonder apes are symbols of wisdom in the Chinese culture. Sometimes they are wiser than men.

The USSR wasn't great, but there's a reason why the revolution happened. It wasn't 'oh this place rocks let's try communism'. It was more 'oh fuck this sucks why not'.

Imagine a big political split in a country - like the one U.S. are facing today. Now, the country has a never ending war at the Western front, so a lot of people are really angry because of casualties amongst their relatives and those they know. Add a weak Czar like Nikolay the 2nd to the mix, add a huge amount of money that another side in the war conflict invests in various political movements in the country in order to destabilize the situation and put in the power someone they could talk about separate peace later.

Get the picture now?

Basic human rights are not the same as overwhelming communist principles. A right to housing, food and medical care is not the same as a right to everything and it does not even remotely resemble the Soviet state you're speaking of. Incentives abound as people always want more and better luxury good - they want a bigger house, a better car (or any car), better computers, more books, expensive holidays and so forth.

The thing is - a lot of people will stop just there, at the very basic things because all they need are those basic things. Current Russian village is an excellent example. Most peasants just drink vodka from 9 A.M. because they don't need fancy computers and stuff. I'm talking from experience - worked there for some time. Still shocked from what I've seen.

Explanation is simple - the socialist state of USSR has removed a chance to seriously fail from the equation. So they've stopped caring.

Some people - a lot of people, actually - just lack ambitions.

All Western-European welfare states work on those principles, and they're doing fine.

You mean like shrinking native population which is being replaced by immigrants (including illegal ones) from poor-OMG-so-unfortunate countries who are attracted by welfare? OTOH those who wish to live there, work are not being allowed to come in because everyone is rightly afraid that they will get on welfare too?

Several years ago I was in the local foreign office waiting for my international passport. Next to me was a 35 years or so man - bigger than me, absolutely healthy judging by his looks. He asked me where I'm going to leave. "Ecuador" - I've answered (I actually lived there for some time, just for kicks). He was surprised - why, do they have a good welfare system there? No - I've answered - I don't care about welfare, I prefer depending on myself. He looked at me like I was stupid and started bragging how he's going to immigrate to Canada were they had such a wonderful welfare system so his family would get a new home instantly and could be free of work for some long time. He has had some paper describing them as "refugees" of some sort.

Land of free(loaders), here you go.

 

[shihonage]

Yes, healthcare system needs work, but asking a know-nothing, inexperienced in the real world, affirmative-action, Oprah-elected "President" to fix it reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy".

You do realize that he consults experts about this stuff, right? You also realize that he can't actually propose any legislation? And you also realize that every president hasn't been an expert on everything, right? He's more experienced than Bush Jr. and Regan.

The problem is not his stupidity per se, but the fact that his stupidity aims him to destroy and rebuild the existing system, instead of getting to the root of the problem and repairing it.

If I was the President I would launch investigations into the root of the problem, as to why everything is so insanely priced. There's a racket going on there, and it needs a good old Putin-style crackdown.

What I would NOT do, however, is push the system in the direction of Canadian healthcare like he does. I would not cut budget from Medicare and then expand its range to include more people, which will leave the elderly in the dust, like he is trying to do.

Note that people who have "experts" usually have these "experts" look at things the same way they do. I.E. Bush-Cheney. Obama surrounded himself with as many yes-men as he could.

George Lucas was surrounded by experts when making the Phantom Menace. They actually had a lot to say. He just didn't listen to any of them.