An Open Letter to Bethesda on How to Fix the Fallout Franchise

Einhanderc7

Einhanderc7

Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection
Hello everyone,
I have begun this open letter mostly in the hope that this could possibly bring about change that could benefit not only Bethesda but the fans as well. Feel free to post your thoughts as well (No inflammatory posts please). My intention is to either leave this letter here publicly on the forums or post them directly on the Bethesda forums. I completely expect Bethesda to be confused as I'm sure they would assume Fallout is a massive success in their eyes.

I have given considerable thought on how to appease everyone regarding the Fallout universe. From what I have experienced there will not be any way to please the original fans. To be honest from Bethesda's actions its nearly impossible to do so with the current state of the franchise.
For the newer fans each title develops what I could only describe as "tribal" groups of individuals that mainly attempt to justify a single title. Quickly getting into the trap the original fan base is stuck in.

However while the above statement is a overall detraction from the game I believe a solution is still possible. I have given this a considerable amount of thought on what my idea would do if acted upon to for the fans. I have also considered Bethesda's perspective and for profit business for their want to continue selling this franchise.

My idea is simple, wipe the slate clean. This should not be difficult considering the constant retcons of lore material and the inherent unstable nature of the lore. However considering Bethesda has full control over the IP they are capable of doing what ever they do so choose. While my idea may seem radical consider the following for a moment.

While I can say as a fan of the originals, I would be more pleased with Bethesda actually fixing the multitude of issues they added to the IP. However I am willing to compromise for everyone's benefit. If Bethesda simply generates a coherent time line, lore points, and characters I strongly think the IP can be repaired from the perspective of an original fan. However to do this they would have to immediately come to terms with in doing such an action this would render all current Fallout games non-canon to actually make this plan work.

This would not only allow for greater freedom with the IP, but also allow the fan base to actually come back together albeit in a compromised way, rather than a fractured foundation. I understand that this is the "nuclear" alternative to solving the many issues the game is plagued with, but lets be honest. The Fallout franchise is getting towards "Ultima 9" levels of insulting for everyone involved. For those unfamiliar with the Ultima 9 reference please feel free to watch Noah Antwiler's Ultima Retrospective; https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpaNqz1vDmSixriNnNTD3FKXJ5D_y9wKS for a more in depth understanding on how an IP, can go from beloved to down right insulting. (Yes I know it's a lot of material, but going in depth like this will convey the correct meaning I wish to imply.)

I completely understand that reading thus far everyone is confused, I will elaborate. The Fallout IP as it currently stands has very little in common with the game mechanics employed by the original titles. While some may say that the originals are the detractor that is holding back the IP, I will agree and disagree. The problem we are facing is the same the Command and Conquer IP failed to properly tackle. One in which the entire game was changed to the point that the game mechanics and lessons learned from previous titles were rendered inert. This has also happened in Fallout 4.

The reason I bring this up is to prevent fixing what isn't broken from the original titles. While some would say that this perspective is born from "nostalgia" I would have to disagree. From the perspective of a game developer any time you change a core mechanic of game franchise (Fallout being the basis of design) you run the risk of completely alienating your fan bases (Example: Fallout 4 completely alienated the Original Fallout fanbase.). In doing so you are informing the player that the lessons they learned from the titles they purchased previously are now worthless, now rendering the previous titles pointless. Why would someone go back to play a previous title of a franchise if it is completely different from the modern titles? Why would a long time fan purchase a new title when they know the game will be completely different and have very little in common with its predecessor? Most players today would not commit to such an action.

Another point I wish to make is the very adult nature of the Fallout franchise. Bethesda has greatly diminished the original theme of the game to the point of making and "adult" game intended for adults and allowing them to be marketed to individuals too young to comprehend the mature themes involved. The original Fallout's (Basis of design) included such concepts like rape, child murder, suicide, slavery/human trafficing, (Real slavery not Bethesda's child friendly version aka the "Disney Pirate") Genocide, body horror, and mass extinction events. Now please consider this for a moment, the game is rated for mature 17+, however the rating for a Fallout titles in a 3D setting should be adults only 18+ considering the violence and themes. However to ensure that Bethesda could take advantage of younger players they watered down these themes to make the game within the acceptable standards of the mature rating.

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MATURE
Content is generally suitable for ages 17 and up. May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

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ADULTS ONLY
Content suitable only for adults ages 18 and up. May include prolonged scenes of intense violence, graphic sexual content and/or gambling with real currency.

Now I'm sure everyone just quickly ran to the ESRB site to double check the ratings for the Fallout titles, and yes Fallout 1 and 2 are rated mature. However considering the limited graphics, it is reasonable that the original titles did not receive an adult rating due to the nature of the game mechanics and art style of the game. But if you were to take those same games and make them 3D, it would be much different. In this case I would say push the envelope instead of only alluding to adult themes to sell more titles. (TLDR: Grow some balls.)

However in doing this there is the capacity to actually take from the original titles or focus more on completely going in another direction with the IP all together. At least then the fan base will know how Bethesda intends to actually develop the IP.

I also suggest that any developers who do intend to work on any future Fallout releases that they take the time to play the original titles in depth. When I say in depth I would expect a developer to really dig into the game mechanics, themes, styles, and messages contained within to understand their purpose.

In conclusion if Bethesda simply rebooted the franchise based on how they want to run the IP I would expect the result to be of benefit vs. counter productive for gains. This would also prevent Bethesda from stringing along broken fan group based on the hope of what it could be vs. what it is. Because lets be honest, that's false advertisement.

Typically at this point I would generate a pro and cons for cost-profit analysis. But to be honest I sincerely doubt anyone at Bethesda would actually take my advice so I don't see the point. Plus from my perspective the IP is already dead with what I would assume would be a loss of almost all of the original fan base now choosing to ignore future releases due to Fallout 4's release; and the massive deviation for the core elements such as its theme and game play mechanics.
 
Einhanderc7 said:
The problem we are facing is the same the Command and Conquer IP failed to properly tackle.
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1. Looking at the sales figures of Fallout 4, this isn't a problem for Bethesda and Fallout is nowhere near being as grossly mishandled as C&C.
2. Sorry to burst your bubble, but nobody's going to make an AO AAA game, ever.
3. You are confusing the marginal opinions of NMA and like-minded with the general reception of the game and the series.
4. Furthermore, you are demanding that BGS commit financial suicide by deciding to cater to the very specific tastes of a small niche of gamers, rather than the much broader group of players who don't give a flying fuck about a twenty year old game from a defunct developer and publisher.

Look, I get where you're coming from. We liked to think we have some pull or influence back around 2008 and Fallout 3.

We have none.

Nobody cares about the fans of the originals. The vast majority moved on with their lives, realizing that it's just a fucking game series - and that ultimately, there are worse things to experience than a developer not catering to their wishes.
 
To be honest I'm not expecting to effect any change, I sincerely doubt they would remotely care or consider my idea. However I still think my idea has merit so, why not?

I'm completely aware that the perspective @Tagaziel has of the NMA community is that of minority. However from my experience from conventions, game mechanic discussions, and the occasional random debates relating to the subject all outside of NMA would say otherwise. But hey, maybe I'm just lucky to encounter other Classic Fallout fans in my travels than most?

Believe it or not Fallout 4 has more in common with Red Alert 3 in how much it diverges from the core material, and I would say the next Fallout title would most likely be the "twilight" of the series. At least for the original fan base.

I would not say I'm requesting anyone to commit financial suicide at all, actually in this case I would say I'm trying to prevent it by finding a way to merge the fan bases back together instead of picking each other apart which is so common now. A split like this in any IP's fan base tends to cause real tangible financial issues later on down the line. If you don't believe me take a look at sonic, hell the only thing keeping that derelict afloat is its fan base.
 
Tagaziel said:
and Fallout is nowhere near being as grossly mishandled as C&C.
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Says who?, Who is the ultimate decider on how badly something was handled?
Tagaziel said:
Furthermore, you are demanding that BGS commit financial suicide by deciding to cater to the very specific tastes of a small niche of gamers, rather than the much broader group of players who don't give a flying fuck about a twenty year old game from a defunct developer and publisher.
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I guess our only hope is hoping that BGS goes bankrupt, because an AAA Company having its paws on Fallout is about the worst thing that can happen to the series, if it's not willing to cater to the small niche of gamers the series once did.
 
Einhanderc7 said:
To be honest I'm not expecting to effect any change, I sincerely doubt they would remotely care or consider my idea. However I still think my idea has merit so, why not?
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Everyone thinks their ideas have merit.

I'm completely aware that the perspective @Tagaziel has of the NMA community is that of minority. However from my experience from conventions, game mechanic discussions, and the occasional random debates relating to the subject all outside of NMA would say otherwise. But hey, maybe I'm just lucky to encounter other Classic Fallout fans in my travels than most?
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It's confirmation bias. The actual hard data for Fallout 4 suggests that the vast majority of people enjoy the changes and enjoy Fallout 4, but since some changes were not well received, Bethesda is likely to iterate based on the feedback.

But in essence, yeah, you are usually encountering Classic Fallout fans. A good number of my friends come from NMA, simply based on the places we frequent.

Believe it or not Fallout 4 has more in common with Red Alert 3 in how much it diverges from the core material, and I would say the next Fallout title would most likely be the "twilight" of the series. At least for the original fan base.
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The original fanbase is gone. Fallout came out 20 years ago and much of it, save for the positively fanatical, has bigger problems than what Bethesda does, and a broader perspective on life than 20 years ago.

For reference, I was nine when Fallout came out and 15 when I registered here. Now I'm 29. I would have agreed with you 100% as late as ten years ago.

But now? I don't.

I would not say I'm requesting anyone to commit financial suicide at all, actually in this case I would say I'm trying to prevent it by finding a way to merge the fan bases back together instead of picking each other apart which is so common now. A split like this in any IP's fan base tends to cause real tangible financial issues later on down the line. If you don't believe me take a look at sonic, hell the only thing keeping that derelict afloat is its fan base.
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See above. The original fan base does not matter, because it was never big in the first place. 20 years ago video games were still a niche hobby:

http://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/...y-fallout-1-2-sold.200521/page-2#post-4205242

Sales figures for Fo1/Fo2. 140 000 copies sold was considered good - a sleeper hit, actually.

Now we count sales in millions, not over a lifetime, but in the first year.

Whatever fanbase existed twenty years ago is completely and utterly irrelevant in this day and age.
 
Tagaziel said:
See above. The original fan base does not matter, because it was never big in the first place. 20 years ago video games were still a niche hobby:
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The Original Fanbase should matter on principle, not because of sales numbers.

If a large chunk of the original fanbase feels dissatisfied with the game, but they sold more, that's a betrayal, not an acceptable way to go about making a game.

It's called selling out.
 
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Both @Tagaziel and @Jogre have valid points. However a "for profit" business will always go for the side with more coin. This is also why I included the Ultima 9 reference as it is the same thing that tanked that franchise. What was a game to be a revitalization of the IP turned out to be another nail in its coffin.

I'm not saying making money is bad, but if your only aim is to make money then over time the product that is produced will become a hollow shell. While many people will be swayed by repetitive many grab attempts, over time they will get bored of it and move on to another IP.

Which makes me wonder what is the next IP EA or Bethesda will acquire to have follow the same business model? True fans don't want the art they enjoy perverted and exploited, they want it to flourish and be an enjoyable experience for everyone.

But hey, maybe I'm old fashioned?
 
I remember reading that different groups of programers were working on the game world independent of each other. If that was true, I would change that. I would have them work together and communicate with each other especially for realistic enemy placement. I would come out of a combat session in a location and after a while I would wonder how these groups maintain a location surrounded by enemies. How to raiders live next to (in some cases literally) super mutants next to rust devils, next to ghouls etc etc and not all up and wipe each other out. It works for enemy variety but kinda breaks down when you think about it in a way that New Vegas does not for me.
 
Tagaziel is right....sort off. Sales are spetacular, but the majority of people really like F4? I mean, like they like Skyrim, Oblivion and F3?

I think it's the worst game that Bethesda has ever done. In fact, I have the impression that even they did not like the final result too much.
 
Fallout 4 did get a bit lower ratings than Fallout 3 and Skyrim, and it seems that their fanbase was a lot more critical about Fallout 4 than what was expected. It feels like Bethesda didn't really have much passion for the game, resulting in a rather lackluster execution.
 
Bethesda have been making games more action oriented than the previous ones since they made Morrowind (it was already more action oriented than Daggerfall). It is their game model since almost two decades. I don't think they will change their minds, specially since sales speak louder and most of the sales come from console players that enjoy more action and less "dead" moments with long dialogues and pauses and all of that.

The vast majority of console players are people who are busy with their life and then at the end of the day sit down to play something for a little bit. They don't have time or motivation for more P&P type of games.

I think Bethesda uses Fallout to try new things and then implement what works on the next TES. And it still manages to sell each game more than the previous. I really don't see any motivation for them to change.

What I think Bethesda could do would be make spinoff Fallout and TES games of different genres. But again, Bethesda is actually small and I doubt they have enough people to make smaller games. I guess they could hire other studios to make some games using their IPs, but that usually never ends well for those studios.
 
Risewild said:
I think Bethesda uses Fallout to try new things and then implement what works on the next TES. And it still manages to sell each game more than the previous. I really don't see any motivation for them to change.
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I do not have the slightest doubt about this. And I'll say more, if the talking protagonist had had a huge positive reception, they would do the same in TeSVI.

As this is not cheap, we would have argonian and khajiit with the same voice.
 
I don't really see them doing that in their main IP TES. They can experiment with the Fallout IP, and maybe they'll do another Adventures spin-off like Redguard (which had a focused, personal story and named, premade main character), but I don't see them deviating from their established approach of blank-slate-prisoner PC.
 
AO is a terrible idea. At the very least it would be sacrificing literally all retail sales in exchange for being the most edgy AAA release. Nevermind Bethesda making games "child friendly". They would be producing the wet dream of countless 14 year old boys. If a financial success at all it would be the new GTA in terms of console kids wanting it because mommy doesn't want them to play it. As if 3 and NV didn't have enough ham fisted shock value, between the Legion's "anyone else hate women and want to rape each-others famillies?" and 3's piles of dead childrens bones and heavily implied child sex slavery.
 
I dunno what's IP, but M rating seems fine to me, and despite me not playing the new games (the quake-engine modern FPSs built on always gave me computer sickness), I do appreciate how they could transfer the originals to a different view/style. From isometric to FPS, form TB to CTB using the WATTs etc.

The only specifics I can see as your complaint is the "tribal" approach, aka. games being independent but in the same wolrd instead of some continuous journey - which I already had enough at F2, feeling forced. F:T saved the friggin franchise with that (and the CTB approach which got refined to Vatts).

And while F3 sucked big time, it got saved by F:NV, so that was fine.

Dunno about F4 though, but I do know a thing that plagues the series: VAUL DWELLERS.
For all sake, why I MUST be a stupid Vault Dweller again and again? It was good for F1: you just stumbled into this world "from a vault". F2 at least made you a tribesman who remembers the Vaults, but itself no longer is (and I stick to the theory was a robot).
F:T brought in the possiblity of RACES. Ye, I want to be a gohul, I want to be a stupermutant, I want to be part of the darn world, not same humanwashed fool!
Like in F1 I could be a dumb character. Now let me be a Glowing One with sanity. How'd the world react to a walking-talking radiation-source? I'd like to see that. Or make a game close to the Master's threat, and let me play a (reformed) supermutant. How'd the world react to THAT I ask? I'd like to see that.
How about making minigames, and let me play a constantly mutating radscorpion or something? Like let me play through starting a Small Cockroach until I become F:T's Roachor! Make that app, and I'd even pay for it! Make Seymore the talking plant an app, like that Talking Tom or what's that stupid app which has a cat in it, and Very Limited Interaction! Make a chess game where I can play against that intelligent radscorpion, and Seymore! Make things DIVERSE!
 
Tagaziel said:
1. Looking at the sales figures of Fallout 4, this isn't a problem for Bethesda and Fallout is nowhere near being as grossly mishandled as C&C.
2. Sorry to burst your bubble, but nobody's going to make an AO AAA game, ever.
3. You are confusing the marginal opinions of NMA and like-minded with the general reception of the game and the series.
4. Furthermore, you are demanding that BGS commit financial suicide by deciding to cater to the very specific tastes of a small niche of gamers, rather than the much broader group of players who don't give a flying fuck about a twenty year old game from a defunct developer and publisher.

Look, I get where you're coming from. We liked to think we have some pull or influence back around 2008 and Fallout 3.

We have none.

Nobody cares about the fans of the originals. The vast majority moved on with their lives, realizing that it's just a fucking game series - and that ultimately, there are worse things to experience than a developer not catering to their wishes.
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>Long, comprehensive and elaborate suggestion essay
>Lol drop it let go yo this is pointless give up nerds brood brood grow up I'm old you're not

You'd think that the first would be someone who seems to want to make this corner of fandom a more constructive and accesible to people with dissenting opinions. But no.
Remember me to cite you on that next time you are whining about this being an enclosed cesspool.
 
From my perspective I think that not only our community, but other fan bases would benefit greatly from a more coherent lore for the game. While I would prefer the IP holder complete this task (as they should) we could always get together as a group and identify what we feel would best fit for the current state of the lore.

While us as a group defining how the lore should line up is not ideal, and very presumptuous. At least then we would have a solid platform to at least bridge the gaps between ourselves and other communities. Bear in mind I'm talking about not changing the games as they are, but trying to find ways in the lore to make them viable and if need be removing/adding lore or all together to fit the current games. This would also show others we are indeed willing of compromise vs. old school gamer curmudgeons zealously holding firm in our ways.

At least then we have a logical position to bring to other communities and Bethesda in an attempt to affect change. Otherwise we will have to put up with people like @Tagaziel simply shouting down logical debate with head canons and false logic. Plus being unified as a group would have a much greater impact than some angst driven threads.

I think it's time we do something about the state of the game, and I hope that if we can at least come together as a group we may actually be able to do so.
 
So another thing; if I got it right, the TLDR is: "Reboot it" and/or "then they can do what they damn please", correct? Because that's actually pretty interesting and removes insult from injury, as if it were.
 
Arnust said:
So another thing; if I got it right, the TLDR is: "Reboot it" and/or "then they can do what they damn please", correct? Because that's actually pretty interesting and removes insult from injury, as if it were.
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Correct, I'm suggesting they reboot it to what they want it to be. Leave the ruins behind and actually forge forward without the broken bits holding it back.

What's the point of having an IP you can't really do much with other than try to please everyone but actually fracture a fan base? I'd rather give someone an out so that they can build something better and flourish rather than anguish away at something that is decaying slowly. But to do so they have to start from square one, vs trying to hold onto what remains.
 
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