Anti-Americanism- at all time high!

DarkCorp said:
So yeah dude, they didn't learn shit. The reason these countries can't remiltarize is because america won't let them.
Perhaps you should go talk to some actual Germans or Japanese before coming up with dumb-assed statements like that.

Hell, the Germans are probably the most guilt-tripping nation in the entire world.

Also: here's another historical note, who gives a shit what other countries did in the past?
 
DarkCorp said:
We did fight a fucking war of independence.
Boy, you must be old.

DarkCorp said:
The reason these countries can't remiltarize is because america won't let them.
Utter bullshit.

You, sir, are just the kind of American that gives Americans a bad name.
 
Bad_Karma said:
If they wouldn't have lost, they wouldn't have made a mistake...

And would they have considered it a mistake had they won? It doesn't change the fact that the people were ok with war as long as they were winning it. I was trying to say that countries will always be competing until we no longer need to compete. Competition means conflict, especially when there is finite resources.

bad_karma said:
And just a historicall note, the US didn't learn anything from Vietnam, nor did Germany learn form the loss in WWI

Your correct. But thats my point. People will always be fighting. It will always be darwinism in the case of geo-politics you see. I am not saying America has no problems. I am sayings its hypocritical to bitch when those same complainers did the same shit in the past. I am saying its hypocritical to complain only because those same said countries had a good part of the world in their hands and they fucked it up.

bad_karma said:
Right... you never heard of Australia and the US had to fight France off eh?
There were cases in wich France and England turned away without being in the big trouble. So i wouldn't say that Australia have become a free country because of WWI or WWII...
Nor would i say that all other colonies were given freedom because of problems in their mother-countries. I mean yeah, india was making trouble, and Vietnam started making trouble soon after WWII... but others weren't and would have given still some money/material for France/England.

Are you trying to say conflict had nothing to do with it? I am saying that WW2 weakened England so bad that it had no choice but to let certain colonies go. Also isn't Australia part of the some alliance called the British Commonwealth? Don't the countries in the commonwealth still acknowledge the queen as their head of state? Looks like England didn't let go as much as previously thought.

bad_karma said:
Again the top-dog has problems with his enemies, but not such problems as americas has with it's allied.

Of course allies have disagreements. Being allies doesn't mean everythings a ok. I mean the competition is still there. Its just a mutually beneficial military alliance in case another alliance forms up. I am sure the british are doing all they can to find out Americas secrets and vice versa. Thats just being vigilant and smart.
 
Buxbaum666 said:
DarkCorp said:
We did fight a fucking war of independence.
Boy, you must be old.

DarkCorp said:
The reason these countries can't remiltarize is because america won't let them.
Utter bullshit.

You, sir, are just the kind of American that gives Americans a bad name.

Wow I am sorry the concept of geo-political darwinism offends you. Just because you do not like it however doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And yeah I what would happen if the right wingers in Japan and Germany ever came back to power eh? Are you telling me that Japan and Germany won't aspire to their old glory if America and the rest of the world didn't give a shit.
 
A lot of great nations fucked up in the past, and it can never be justified.
An ugly example is when the English, French and German empires pretty much ruined Africa, a continent bloody rich with resources,
because they felt like dividing it among themselves using a ruler on a map.
What they did was to create unnatural nation borders which forced people of very different cultures to live together. Therefore todays civil wars.

After everything went to hell during both world wars, you could say that they have learnt from their mistakes.

America has not. They started going into countries when the old empires stopped, and most often making a bigger mess. Funding one side of a quarrel only to find out later they funded the wrong side for example. (Afghanistan)

All in good intention, right?

The list is pretty long, and it is this kind of meddling that has given the US a bad reputation.

John Winthrop, leading a group of puritans to the new world in the 17th century and later politician, wrote in his diary on his way over something close to: 'We shall become like a bright city upon a hill. An example for everyone to follow.'

I feel this cocky statement is what the US is founded on, and that it still rots in the center of politics today.

I blame the bleedin' puritans!:D
Glad they left Europe

'Bet your life I don't need religion!'
 
Darkcorp - draws a list of former global powers. Its interesting to note that many of those powers existed either in an age of absolutist monarchy or empire, and when they did not, these were societies that possessed ideologies that were bent on expansionism and conquest. In some cases those ideologies were based on a notion that they were bringing civilization to the rest of the world.

However, to think that it was those ideologies that drove those imperial or global projects is, I suspect, naive. To mobilize societies one needs ideological power. But it was similiar ideological power that drove civil rights, liberalism, communism. But ideology is only one form of power, and I suspect that it does little if its not organized and directed.

We all may have ideological beliefs- religion for instance is an ideological belief centered around a supernatural idea, and many of us have that. But there is a difference between a religion and a crusading faith of jihad. Likewise, there is a difference between a Facist state or even an authoritarian state and one that directs that operation towards war and conquest.

To make a long story short- ideology isn't enough. You need direction and mobilization. As Michael Mann- sociologist not movie maker- says- Ideology, Economic, Military and Political power- are all different sources and have their own mechanics. One can be strong in one, and weak in others- but generally you need all four.

For instance- right now the US has strong military power, weak political power, good economic power, faltering ideological power. To lead, the US needs stronger political and ideological power.

Europe has strong economic power, marginal military power, strong political power, marginal ideological power.

But how does that translate to war- you have to know who calls the shots. At the end of the day, the key question in politics is- Who gets paid.

Wars-

We can argue that wars are driven either-

(1) defensively- fearing one's enemies or instability in regions were precious resources or security interests lie, the regime pursues foreign ambitions- often by conquest. Here the theory of the security dilemma- may apply.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_dilemma
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/world_politics/v050/50.1glaser.html
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~olau/ir/archive/jer8.pdf

(2) Aggressive- a state seeks to change the status quo in a way that draws it a higher return. Perhaps it does so because it anticipates a future in which it will lose power vs larger rivals. One could find this in Germany in both World Wars and Japan in World War 2.
http://wikisum.com/w/Copeland:_The_origins_of_major_war
http://books.google.com/books?id=95...+dynamic+differentials&source=gbs_toc_s&cad=1

(3) Commerce- this si a bit different than either theory above. If we understand markets and economic exchange as relations between 2 or more groups, then its a collective action problem. As such, it needs some set of rules. Within a state, the government provides the rules of economic exchange. In the international realm, those rules arise through common practices or a hegemonic actor. One sees the beginning of this in the 19th century led by British near hegemony.

Since World War 2- the global economy has been driven largely by a liberal set of institutions that were largely created by the US and which the US supported first against a rival block- led by the USSR, and then has continued to lead in the post-Cold War. Now this isn't the best of systems. Like any liberal system that has limited government regulation- it tends to lead to extreme inequality. Yet, the system does allow members that do well to prosper.

Unlike the defensive or offensive game- these are non-zero sum games. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum

I would argue that US interests now are primarily commercial and largely defensive. The US lacks a crusading ideology at home. In fact, most Americans oppose the war and don't want a long occupation in Iraq. Rather, most of us are leaning towards alternatives to fossil fuels and thus reducing our dependence on dictatorship-petrostates.

There is significant displeasure over the significant inequalities of the world. That argument is being felt in the US where the dialogue has made a remarkable shift towards issues of social class. The Nation is coming out with an edition that takes on the problem of inequality on its face near the end of the month.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080630/

So what is motivating US ambitions abroad- in Iraq.

Part of it is unfinished business- the lingering and unresolved problems of Gulf War 1. Part of this war was driven by the desire of Americans to kick ass after 9-11. Afghanistan did not quench American appetite for kicking ass- afterall that war was pretty much fought by the Northern Alliance and US Special Forces.

But I suspect the real motivation for the war is simply oil- or more directly- oil dependence.

As China and other lesser developed countries grow- they will consume more oil, and there is limited supply. Increased demand has increased the speculative price of fuel- and is why our gas is so expensive. We feel that.

But what we don't acknowledge is-
(1) the West turns a blind eye to Darfur- because Sudan provides China with fuel.
(2) the US makes a quick peace with Libya- because we need the fuel.
(3) Iraq- sitting on the second largest oil field, could- if we won that occupation- take off the pressure for central Asian oil- or the New Great Game.

So the war in Iraq- is a commercial war- fought over a strategic resource. I believe, and supported, this war because I believed it was necessary to prevent further and more intense conflicts in other regions that more directly draw in the major powers. Its bad enough that we have potentially hundreds of thousands of causalities in Iraq. But that's peanuts compared to a major conflict over fuel.

But I am unsure- mostly because I see this war as going on too long when it shouldn't have. It has become a war based on compromises rather than the will to win. Which is why, I think, Americans are frustrated. If American had won the occupation- then McCain would have an easy election ahead. But we didn't. And its a problem. Why? Bush policies. What I am unsure of is whether the Bush policies were intended to cause these consequences or they just failed.

But what about the long-term. The US public is willing to support deployments in Europe- because of a history of major war. It has supported forces in Korea. But that's pretty peaceful. It isn't keen on major forces in Iraq.

But once the oil is no longer important, than those militaries need not deploy there any longer.
 
The Iraqi death toll grossly disturbs me, and to anyone who has spouted the bullshit rhetoric "Saddam was an evil man that needed to be dealt with!" Do you fucking realize that 600,000 dead is approaching or may have even exceeded the number of people he killed?

I don't blame soldiers though as much as I blame politicians. I know a sure way to make sure no more civilians are accidentally killed in Iraq, bring the fucking soldiers home! Besides, it's not the foot soldiers that are responsible for this huge number, it's the bombing of cities that has killed the vast majority. How can you justify bombing people's houses in a military campaign?

Anyways, to anyone who cares, there are plenty of americans who are disgusted with their country. To view all americans as war-mongering evangelical redneck nationalists is as stupid as saying all Muslims (or even more than a very tiny minority) are terrorists. I don't believe in stereotypes, and we're being fed so much false information I can't even blame a lot of people who may have voted for Bush. (damn well wasn't me or anyone I know though)

Our government has been hijacked, and many Americans are so misinformed and consequentially xenophobic that they're willing to let their government get away with anything. The mass media here has been playing on people's fears since the attack on the world trade center. Do all of you know that our news stations (I dont know if they still do this, I gave up televised news 2 years after september 11th 2001) were/are constantly citing our "Terror Alert Level" in various shades of ominous colors? It's fucking Orwellian over here right now.

I'm not going to defend my countries action in the slightest, but to blame Americans instead of the American Evangelical Wal-Mart Starbucks Death Squad Inc. government that has taken over our foreign policy is more than a bit narrow minded.
 
Do you fucking realize that 600,000 dead is approaching or may have even exceeded the number of people he killed?

Where did you get this number from? AFAIK, the body count is 84,621 – 92,304.

Besides, it's not the foot soldiers that are responsible for this huge number, it's the bombing of cities that has killed the vast majority. How can you justify bombing people's houses in a military campaign?

You make it sound as if B-52's carpet-bombed every city in the country along with its inhabitants. This wasn't the case.

Our government has been hijacked, and many Americans are so misinformed and consequentially xenophobic that they're willing to let their government get away with anything.

Hijacked? Hardly. I don't think this is a new issue in gringolandia. It's more apparent now, but think of all the "liberated" central and south american countries in the name of freedom and democracy, with their assorted McHitlers put into power shortly after.

So... no. It's not exactly 'new', nor (unfortunatedly) exclusive to hard-core Republicans on a power trip.

The mass media here has been playing on people's fears since the attack on the world trade center.

Is it the mass media? I mean, besides Fucks News. It's more of a Bush administration catch to present the US's situation in light of an imminent attack. I hear Chinese subs are a fashionable scare now.

were/are constantly citing our "Terror Alert Level" in various shades of ominous colors?

Ehehe, yeah. Very 1950's.

It's fucking Orwellian over here right now.

Now, now. Don't exaggerate. It's not good, but it's not THAT bad, and it doesn't seem the eight years of militant bushismo isn't something your country won't recover from fairly quickly.

Unless McCain wins.

I'm not going to defend my countries action in the slightest, but to blame Americans instead of the American Evangelical Wal-Mart Starbucks Death Squad Inc. government that has taken over our foreign policy is more than a bit narrow minded.

Blaming everyone in the country is stupid, of course.

That said, those guys had to find support somewhere. The real question is if you can blame the poor sods that got tricked into advocating it. If anyone or anything's to blame, I'd say it's the lack of adequate low/mid education in Murkistan.

Miss Teen USA South Carolina comes to mind.
 
@Megacorp you know that India is also in the Commonwealth? As is Canada, SouthAfrica and much more.

Also you know that it wasn't WWII that pushed the english Empire to release Australia into Freedom.
By the way, the queen don't have any power about the Common-Wealth.
It's more like to say "If you don't give any orders, we will obey your orders and still say 'God save the queen/king/GiantAntOverlords'" ;)

As i say there are simple cases in wich countries learnt without loosing or being forced to set someone free.
There's so to say a maximum distance for what is a country one goverment can handle.

I agee on the fact that Top dogs are hated from their enemies. But you know, the US-Europe link is a bit else than what we got before, i don't remember lost allies saying before "Erm no.... no don't let us attack Afghanistan." and then just attack because the US is calling...
And fighting over secrets, no i don't think so... I mean america build it's listening facility over here in europe, not the otherway round. Sure there are companies battling each other and sometimes doing some spying (especially in the arms-sector), but that's hardly any european goverment.

So i just decided (after started thinking in english instead of german, my mother language), that i won't post much longer on such 'length' here in english ;)
 
Wooz said:
Where did you get this number from? AFAIK, the body count is 84,621 – 92,304.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/world/middleeast/11casualties.html
While it looks as though this has a wide margin of error, and the deaths counted aren't exclusively military, if any study can come up with such a number I think it's reasonable to assume that at least half that many have died as a direct result of the invasion.



You make it sound as if B-52's carpet-bombed every city in the country along with its inhabitants. This wasn't the case.
Yeah, I'm a bit off base saying vast majority. The mere notion of bombing a city sickens and enrages me though. And I know that bullets and bombs my taxes have paid for have maimed and killed scores upon scores of children. Many americans believe we're in Iraq fighting terrorism, while in actuality we're creating an entire generation of people who will be hostile to America and the west in general. I know for certain if I watched my family and friends explode when I was 7 years old, I'd be ready to blow myself up out of revenge when I was a teenager.



Hijacked? Hardly. I don't think this is a new issue in gringolandia. It's more apparent now, but think of all the "liberated" central and south american countries in the name of freedom and democracy, with their assorted McHitlers put into power shortly after.

So... no. It's not exactly 'new', nor (unfortunatedly) exclusive to hard-core Republicans on a power trip.
You're right, hijacked was poor choice of wording. It's business as usual pretty much, but this administration is so much more blatant about it's "we're Amerika! fuck you!" attitude. And I should also clarify that while I blame fundamentalist christian republicans for our current situation, I have no sympathy for democrats either. I think the 2 party system is fucked and has reduced american democracy to something that plays well on prime time television: a retarded greased up wrestling match.

Snackpack said:
It's fucking Orwellian over here right now.
Alright, a bit of a stretch there. The PATRIOT act is some scary shit though. And, while I generally don't buy into conspiracy theories (at least not whole-heartedly ;) ) one piece of hard science I find pretty interesting about the 9/11 attacks: Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel, yet in the wreckage of the world trade center molten steel was reported for days. ? I would say triggered explosives set off at or near the moments of impact would have been necessary for that but our government refused to entertain the notion whatsoever.

Unless McCain wins.
I guess when I learned that the presidential race was going to come down to a white woman, a black man, or an old white ex - POW, I assumed that that was a foregone conclusion. I hope I'm wrong.
 
Snackpack said:
Yeah, I'm a bit off base saying vast majority. The mere notion of bombing a city sickens and enrages me though. And I know that bullets and bombs my taxes have paid for have maimed and killed scores upon scores of children. Many americans believe we're in Iraq fighting terrorism, while in actuality we're creating an entire generation of people who will be hostile to America and the west in general. I know for certain if I watched my family and friends explode when I was 7 years old, I'd be ready to blow myself up out of revenge when I was a teenager.

Hmmm an entire generation that hates Americans? Now my friend that just got back a month ago, says that it's only really the Shiite hate us, and the Sunni are very much coming to our side. Sunni being the biggest population in Iraq and Shite being the biggest population in Iran. He was stationed in a city near Baghdad.

Los Angeles Times
Published: May 26th, 2008 01:00 AM
BAGHDAD – The U.S. military said Sunday that the number of attacks by militants in the last week dropped to a level not seen in Iraq since March 2004.

About 300 violent incidents were recorded in the seven-day period ended Friday, down from a weekly high of nearly 1,600 in mid-June last year, according to a chart provided by the military.

The announcement appeared aimed at allaying fears that an uprising by militiamen loyal to radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr could unravel security gains since 28,500 additional American troops were deployed in Iraq in a buildup that reached its height in June.

Navy Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll, a military spokesman, credited the decrease to a series of operations launched by the Iraqi government in the last two months to extend control over parts of the country that have been under the sway of armed Sunni Arab and Shiite militants. They include crackdowns in the southern oil hub of Basra and the northern city of Mosul.

Driscoll said the number of attacks nationwide had declined 70 percent since the crest of the troop buildup. Most of the extra forces are expected to leave Iraq by the end of July.

Pull out of Iraq and Americans won't kill anymore Iraqis, that is true. Just like if you make guns illegal, no legal gun will kill anyone. That doesn't mean people stop dieing. That doesn't mean schools won't be bombed because they teach the wrong thing or the wrong child. That doesn't mean government officials don't get assassinated because they speak out against the violence. It doesn't mean women don't get shot because they wear makeup. It doesn't mean gays don't get hanged.


Anyway. I looked up how they got the number 600,000. It's a piss poor poll, and is also a year out of date.(not that finding any current deathtolls is easy)

So I'll give you what I found in Al Jazeera; 151,000. Its the WHO numbers in 2006. Though the Iraq Body Count that wooz posted seems most testable and is currently at 84,621 - 92,304.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/654C9747-8EC0-45A4-B2F4-E8B22E3AAB65.htm
 
To be honest, it seems all the projections on Iraqi dead seem to be crappy. I have seen them upwards of 1.2 Million to 90K- that's a huge gap. Wooz's figure is total reported- but they keep finding bodies buried in fields and we don't know how many are missing or non-reported.

Here's what worries me-

Either the war has been a disaster or its a success. I am not sure which.

Let me illustrate--

War as failure- The war was fought to overthrow Saddam's regime and release Iraqi oil back into the global economy. The idea here would be to keep oil prices low despite increasing demand. It would also buy more time to find alternative sources and take the pressure off other sources. If China, for instance, could get its oil from Iraq, it wouldn't have to do business with Sudan and Darfur wouldn't be a problem. Sadly, as the oil doesn't flow and civil conflict continues in Iraq- Iraqi oil production is unstable at best. This means the war is a failure.

War as success- In this sense the idea of the war was to fight them over there rather then fight them here. Ok, we have had terrorist strikes in the US- they just haven't been very successful. Meanwhile- what you have in Iraq is primarily a clash of Muslim vs Muslim (ok Kurds there).

So if you are a militant and you want to militate- then you go where the fighting is and where your people are. Just like the Mujahadeen went from Saudi Arabia to fight in Afghanistan during the 1980s, and then went to Bosnia in the 1990s, now they go to Iraq to fight. Thousands of Muslims are fighting thousands of other Muslims in Iraq.

But they aren't really fighting each other in many other places. And while this war might generate more terrorists/militants- those militants are fighting and dieing "over there" rather then "over here."

The idea here is- they were going to fight for their religious beliefs, and take blood in the process. So instead of them fighting here, and taking our blood, they are fighting there and taking there blood.

Its tragic, but in terms of opportunity costs- elegant. it reduces the war to an idea- the Muslims were going to fight/blow-up/shoot/kill someone. But by having the Iraq Occupation- you let them kill each other. Considering that if the US pulls out, this conflict will not end (as there doesn't seem to be a strong enough central authority). Consider also that both the Sunnis and the Shi'ite will continue to throw bodies and money into Iraq for many years to come- what the US has created is a perpetual war locked within the borders of a country. Its the new Afghanistan.

That's a potential horror show that we've created.

I find that troubling and creates a rather puzzling problem. To me, a war for oil to me seems a more honest and moral goal than a war fought to create a perpetual civil war in the middle east. A war for oil means that success is won only when the nation is stabilized. A war to contain conflict within a state - seems to be a recipe for disaster. Intellectually- I think this is still a war for oil.
 
I would like to believe its for oil but its looking more and more like what Welsh is describing. Saddam Husseins regime brought unity. Unity as we all know is what makes countries powerful. If there was perpetual civil war, then the middle east will never get a chance to become an arab/muslim superstate much better equipped to protect its interests.
 
Wooz said:


YES!


ii091603d.jpg
 
Ah-Teen said:
Hmmm an entire generation that hates Americans? Now my friend that just got back a month ago, says that it's only really the Shiite hate us, and the Sunni are very much coming to our side. Sunni being the biggest population in Iraq and Shite being the biggest population in Iran. He was stationed in a city near Baghdad.
I'm sorry but unless your friend speaks Arabic fluently and got to spend most of his time over there dressed in civies mingling with Iraqi citizens I don't think his information is any closer to the truth than what we get on television.

I don't think anyone there greeted the US as liberators, and when most of your country has trouble accessing fresh water due to an invasion I think it would piss you off regardless of what religious sect you belonged to. My point was that the entire generation is growing up in a war zone. If your hometown was invaded and you grew up with soldiers patrolling your streets, would you not grow up hating that uniform and everything it represented?

Anyways the point I was mainly getting at is that before we invaded Iraq, they had little to no connection to global terrorism. Now the unstable nature of the country makes it a hotbed for militant extremists. Also in 15-20 years when the children who are there now are young adults, I'd wager we see more militant anti-american extremism among that population than any where else in the world.

Pull out of Iraq and Americans won't kill anymore Iraqis, that is true. Just like if you make guns illegal, no legal gun will kill anyone. That doesn't mean people stop dieing. That doesn't mean schools won't be bombed because they teach the wrong thing or the wrong child. That doesn't mean government officials don't get assassinated because they speak out against the violence. It doesn't mean women don't get shot because they wear makeup. It doesn't mean gays don't get hanged.
I'm not suggesting that violence would cease if there were no more US soldiers in Iraq. That being said, I think arguing that we stay there is like saying "well I stabbed this guy, and I've been twisting the knife for awhile, but if I pull it out he'll bleed everywhere!"

I don't know of the perfect solution to this, but I think ending the occupation would be a good start. Perhaps turning it over to a UN peace keeping force (primarily paid for by the US) would be a step in the right direction.


Anyway. I looked up how they got the number 600,000. It's a piss poor poll, and is also a year out of date.(not that finding any current deathtolls is easy)
In this case the fact that it's more than a year out of date only strengthens it. If it was grossly inaccurate to begin with, it is closer to accurate now. Regardless of the actual numbers, the fact that people are dying in so many places so quickly that it is not quantifiable is some pretty scary shit.

And to Welsh: I think the war was a "success" both for oil and as in your second scenario. While oil production may not be up, the profitability of oil is way way up. Oil companies are all reporting record profits, and Big Time Cheney's halliburton friends (a company which received numerous no-bid contracts to rebuild what we destroyed I might add) are all filthy rich now (as if they weren't before)

I think your second scenario is chillingly spot on as well, and I'm reminded of the war described in 1984.

"I'd stay in Iraq for another 100 years if I had to" - John McCain
 
I don't know of the perfect solution to this, but I think ending the occupation would be a good start. Perhaps turning it over to a UN peace keeping force (primarily paid for by the US) would be a step in the right direction.

That would piss me off to hell. Really, nice american thinking:
"We messed up, and we won't any more soldiers of us to die, or even pay fully for it, so send i the ones wich didn't wanted this war before to clean the mess we did. Especially let send France and Germany (the coalition of the weasels) troops under the U.N. there."

But yeah... seems to work for the U.S. and seems to work for the U.N. and our goverment...
 
Bad_Karma said:
That would piss me off to hell. Really, nice american thinking:
"We messed up, and we won't any more soldiers of us to die, or even pay fully for it, so send i the ones wich didn't wanted this war before to clean the mess we did. Especially let send France and Germany (the coalition of the weasels) troops under the U.N. there."

But yeah... seems to work for the U.S. and seems to work for the U.N. and our goverment...

Ok, I wasn't very clear. I would be all for the peace keeping force to be entirely staffed and paid for by the U.S., merely overseen by the UN. What I meant was, end the occupation! Don't build US military bases there, pull our tanks and other heavy weapons platforms out etc. Concede that we made a mistake and attempt to rectify it.
 
Forget about it, was just a bit grumpy this morning ;)
But i'm really annoyed when some country has problem taking the consequences of their acts. I'm also against us (germany) pulling out our army out of Afghanistan.
Either you go through the whole thing our you don't even start with it, in such cases at least.

But i guess the U.N. would be a good step and to pull out american soldier and put in some soldier who know the mentality of the iraques and how to deal with them a bit better, might cool some people in iraque.
But to say it again, it's easy to bomb a country and destroy the goverment, but it's much harder to extinguish the fires later...

But okay, got you wrong there...
 
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