Are you concerned about a decline of family values?

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Shaodeus, Jun 7, 2016.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
  2. Shaodeus

    Shaodeus Still Mildly Glowing

    Apr 28, 2016
    Eh lets not bring feminism into this, I really, really tire of hearing about feminism.
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  3. mithrap

    mithrap Ring a ding-ding, baby

    May 17, 2016
    We gotta define "decline" first.
    See, first of all, the marriage age in western civilization has always been pretty constant. If you look at the records from the 1600's England, you'll find an average marriage age of 23 - 27 years old. So our "late boomer" generation is actually pretty normal, given the historical standard people view as the "family golden age".

    Now, about divorce : Henry VIII and many other rulers divorced a lot of times. And here's another thing : you didn't have to "divorce", you could simply ask for a marriage annulment. A legal loop that was widely used and cheated the numbers for centuries. A LOT of marriages were annuled in history.
    John Milton wrote four books on how awesome divorce was in the 1640s.
    In 1929, one in six American marriages ended in divorce. By 1940--a year not typically seen as a bad year for marriage--2 million American women filled for divorce. The divorce numbers went lower during the glorious thirties, true, for an obvious reason : florishing economics, war veterans coming back from the war, a lot of babies to make to compensate the losses etc. That's an historical exception, not a rule that would define the family values.
    So, divorce is not something new, or damaging. Also, the divorce rate did indeed peak in the 1970s and early 1980s BUT it has been declining for the three decades since. It keeps declining as we speak. If anything, the peak in divorces in the 70's was a social anomaly. An exception in history, not a rule.

    Reformed families ? But quite a lot of historians actually think that stepparents and stepsiblings were almost more common than original families in the late medieval period. Single parents weren't uncommon at all in most periods of history. Even in the early 1900's, you had one chance out of four to actually be an orphan before you turned 15, so there's that. People died a lot, incest was to be avoided : so, reformed families were extremely common, no matter which century you look at.

    Married without wanting children ? Common during all history. The church celebrated the "Josephite marriages" just for that. Usually, it implies a chaste marriage, but in reality, it was a wayout for couples who didn't want children, were sterile etc. but didn't want to disappoint their families by staying single.

    Abortion ? Extremely common in history. Romans used Silphium as birth control pill. Condoms have existed for three millenias and even St. Thomas d'Aquin said that until you could feel the fetus moving, abortion wasn't a sin. Wasn't good either, but not a sin. The abortion rate in the mid 19th century England was incredibly high.

    Gay marriage ? Always existed... sort of. Churches celebrated "brother-making" between two men for centuries. Officially, they were simply friends swearing eternal friendship under the same roof, but everyone knew what was happening, and nobody cared much, in fact. And for females, the Boston Marriage was a thing, even not official, but it was still a thing and society didn't collapse.

    So, what we may call "decline of family values" really looks like a return to the traditional family system.
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  4. DVL

    DVL Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 19, 2015
    No, I'm not worried.
    Sadly, everybody has more eruditely expressed why I'm not worried than I ever could.
    The whole idea of a bog-standard Christian marriage being the natural order is a fiction. "Family values" sets off my bullshit detector, because it's the sort of coded language people use to push an agenda.
    Could we be doing more to raise kids better? Yeah probably.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  5. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Although family values can be a big part of it, I am more worried about the breakdown of the family as an economic unit.

    People do not want to compromise anymore. 'Waaaah, fuck trying to make marriage work, I'mma tak my ball and go home.'

    Kids can't stand mommy and daddys rules because they feel they need to express their selves through partying, drinking and having good times. They move out ASAP.

    In order for my family to accept me, I have to quite drugs and making shitty decisions that piss them off? Fuck that, I'll just have the state provide.

    Are there shitty families who abuse and neglect? Sure. Do people go crazy because life takes away their family and they succumb to substance abuse? Sure. I am not totally against a safety net, but, atleast in the U.S., those who willingly choose a shitty situation due to personal choices vastly outnumber those whom life chose to take a gigantic crap on.

    A lot of people who wanted to get their own start also lived in theIR cars, by choice. JEWEL LIVED IN A VAN.

    'So my moms an idiotic girl who willingly sleeps with a shitbag, gets pregnant with me, giving me this shitty ass life. So now I go and sleep with some shitbag and continue the cycle, cause supposedly I don't know any better, bullshit.'

    That's the same argument where 'My dad beat me as a kid so I'm going to beat my own kids.'

    The family as a socio-economic unit is critical in life. How else do you explain how so many other minority immigrants, who come to the U.S., no less poor, no less dis-enfranchised by their home nations, no less ETHNIC AKA brown, can do much better?

    I'd like the government to buy me a home while other people go through the bullshit of kissing ass at work to get ahead and work extra and still get treated like shit, just to get theirs.

    I'd like to get a free home as an activist, spending all my free time protesting and soapboxing when others are busy grinding out a soulless 9-5.

    I would love to waste money going to Europe, coming home to tell everyone how fucking cultured and better I am than those who saved that money for a fucking rainy day.

    I dunno, instead buying RIMS or concert tickets or what the fuck ever, maybe you save money for a traffic ticket or some other bullshit life beats you over the head with.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
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  6. comscar

    comscar It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 8, 2009
    Family values have been declining ever since the so called "counter culture" movement
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I can not talk for the US. But it happens quite often that when people talk about traditional family values here, it means to cut support to single parents. At least that is what a right wing party demands right now. They blame it on the parent, it's their fault that they are single, so why should the state support them? They should simply marry again!
    I am also not sure what people mean with family values. The one we had 20 years ago? 40? 60? 100? Which one of them should we miss? We sure lost a lot of good stuff, I am not arguing about that. But we also lost a hell lot of really bad and nasty stuff as well. And We will not get the one back without the other. If it would be even possible to get anything back. Societies change, values change, with each new generation. That's simply a normal process. And what we see right now with those extreme voices, is a desperate try to turn back the clocks. Back to the good ol american values! Or the German tradition! Or what ever. But those won't come back. And the harder we try, the more issues will we create. Transexuals, Homosexualx, foreign cultures, immigration. We simply see a lot of very quick changes to our societies.
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  8. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Crni I get it, but Germany has a population of 80 MILLION. Even given the same percentage of fuckups, you folks have less. It is also much easier to reach a consensus with less people and external factors those people bring to the table.

    Not to mention Europe is culturally different. Maybe I am just an ignorant outside but to me, it seems as if Europe has overall, much less fuckups in general.

    Where as a lot of euros are actually cultured , we just have a lot of entitled douchebags in this country who waste money and buy the latest bulshit while screaming about how liberal and 'progressive', they are. They scream about equality yet its Hispanic this Latino that. Last I fucking remembered, this country had a lot more ethnicities than those two. Last I remembered, plenty of other races came here not knowing english but they don't have government forms and shit given to them in their own personal language.

    As I have said before, if anyone deserves a free ticket here, it's poor Mbutu from Rwanda who had to beat his own mother to death just to keep from getting killed himself.

    And blacks, ok they got shit on. You know who else got shit on? The Jews. Not only were they slaves, they had 6 million of their brethren genocided.

    If people are going to soapbox, BOTH sides need mention.
  9. DVL

    DVL Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 19, 2015
    This sounds just like a bigoted and discursive rant.
    Family values is on the decline because kids today are spoiled. I walk uphill in the snow both ways.
    Blah blah blah. Look at all these welfare queens and activists.

    You're ignoring people who don't want a family because they don't think they're equipped financially or emotionally for that. Or cohabitating couples don't want legal entanglements. And so on and so forth. And no, this isn't just because they diddled somebody and want to get out of having to pay the bill.

    The thing that irritates me about the right-wing is that they never practice what they preach. That for all their lofty talk about values, they're the ones who have the highest divorce rates, teen pregnancies, least fiscal responsibility, the most violence and all the politicians and evangelists with repressed sexual baggage. They can't imagine that anybody else has their shit together and so feel entitled to smack you upside the head with moralized preaching because everybody doesn't fit into their narrow-minded view of social norms.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  10. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    It's RACSISM goddamnit, RACISM.

    How dare I mention the unfair treatment some races get yet others don't. How dare I point out how liberals are often some of the most racist, hateful, judgmental, hypocritical assholes around. How dare I mention personal responsibility without getting some diatribe about how I unfairly target African americans and Hispanics and Latinos, which I HAVEN'T DONE.

    I merely mentioned FACTS, that YES, poor choices lead to poverty. I never mentioned this as endemic to any SPECIFIC RACE. If you did, then YOUR the racist. And YES, people are fucking STUPID, if they put something dumbass like RIMS for their shitty cars, PRIORITY over things like DEBT and BILLS, or I dunno, maybe a rainy day fund. You know that many in the U.S. like to customize their vehicles right?? Get loud sound systems etc. See, no mention of any SPECIFIC RACE HERE.

    I brought up Hispanics and Latinos because that's all you ever hear about on the fucking news, atleast in relation to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and favored status. Can Africans get a mention?, they sure need it. What about the afghanis who helped the U.S. military and who were promised VISAS in return, and getting screwed? But noooo, those folks, who simply can get in the U.S. easier, by virtue of location, get all the attention. People can get government forms IN SPANISH, yet the Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Pakistanis, etc, etc, do not get the same.
  11. Mr muggyman 3000

    Mr muggyman 3000 Lover of coffe cups

    May 3, 2016
    I was raised by a single mother and I had a pretty good childhood
  12. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Did you have the support of your extended family?

    Meaning while your mother worked, did grandma or grandpa help watch you to save money on a babysitter? Whie your mother no doubt had it very hard, did extended family, or even your mother herself, still have time to pay attention to you? To play with you, relate to you treat you like an equal in some ways? Hel educate you and assist with homework and school functions?

    Paying rent with a single income is difficult. Did your extended family assist in this endeavor? Same with other bills like a car payment or utilities. Did your single mother due her best to save money and cut back on things considered not necessary? It is funny how in the U.S., being stingy or 'CHEAP', is looked down upon when not spending is often the PRIMARY means of saving up financial capitol.

    Or maybe, like most SANE people would, move back into your grandparents home if your mother could not afford the rent, living on her own. If grandma and grandpa had troubles paying the home mortgage, the return of the children often can help turn the tide. Maybe the grandparents can put your mothers name onto the deed so that, once they pass, the house goes to your mom?

    I apologize if I am being too personal but I am bringing up the various ways people in trouble can get help WITHOUT, relying on the government. Welfare is NEEDED, I will never argue the opposite. But how often it is used and to what extent is equally important.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  13. DVL

    DVL Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 19, 2015
    God, you're notoriously bad on staying on subject.
    But in any case, no sane man can really believe that it's anything other than a social conservative that is a nativist or bigot by definition.
    I have Trump patronizingly trying to win votes by talking about his "African American friend" and all the people scared of the country turning brown rallying behind him. I have a Republican party that pretty much hates Obama because he's black and won't be dissuaded by petty little facts like him actually not being a Muslim. Paul Ryan pretty much called Trump racist but that wont stop the party from circling around him.

    Don't lecture me about racism.

    It's always the conservative that leaps to snap judgments about the moral failings of people they've never met and is just as quick to prescribe a cure, based on no personal experience or evidence whatsoever other than that it makes them feel good. Every social ill is the fault of the sloth of some person they've never fucking met and they are always the pure and upright people keeping the world from falling in on itself. Certainly sounds great.

    They don't give a shit about facts. They confuse having the idea held with conviction as being the same as having knowledge. Repeatedly, over-and-over, I am fucking tired of having to explain the difference between socialism and a communism to people who should otherwise be educated enough to know the goddamn difference. But why let facts bother you?

    In no small part, the conservatives on this board have helped to persuade me that that they stand for nothing except what makes them feel immediately comfortable in the moment. Hiding behind vaunted abstract nothings like "values" and " tradition." That all that talk about ideology is just a coded smokescreen for closeted bigotry.
    That when they talk about hierarchy, what they really mean is that people cannot be trusted to be free.
    That whey talk about government oppression small government, what they really mean is that they want to be free to legislate their morality onto other people and oppress anybody they don't like in turn. And half the time, this is based on nothing but their petty local superstitions.
    That they are, universally, no matter where they hail from, reactionaries.

    You know what. You can all suck it.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  14. Izak

    Izak I Shot The ALBATROSS

    Jan 29, 2016
    Considering one of the most prolific right wing guys on this board is a holocaust denying, eugenics advocate, I doubt you're getting a fair representation of that side of the political spectrum.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
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  15. Shaodeus

    Shaodeus Still Mildly Glowing

    Apr 28, 2016
    Wait, who is a holocaust denying eugenics advocate?
  16. Izak

    Izak I Shot The ALBATROSS

    Jan 29, 2016
    I'm not sure if it's proper etiquette to link to the Vats, but if you want to read some quality cancer look here (specifically from the second page onwards, I think).
    I don't really know where the eugenic stuff is, I think it's scattered around in various threads both in and out of the Vats.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  17. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Rawr, all racists are right wingers rawr.

    All jokes aside, every single race can be racist in some ways or at the very least, culturally insensitive. To ignore that is to be a hypocrite at best or shameless propagandist at worst.

    So because I am republican I am a Trump supporter? Ah, I was actually a big supporter of Fiorina, who SUPPORTED a path to citizenship for illegals.

    No personal experience and you assume shit about me? My parents immigrated here. We had a sponsor because, having someone assist you while you get on your feet keeps you from being taken advantage of by people like human smugglers for example. The whole point for LEGAL immigration.

    I have never said stuff like darkie this or Hispanic that. I mentioned FACTS, like a single parent household is OBVIOUSLY going to bring in less income than a two person household, barring a single, high powered job of course. And it is certainly FACT, that wasteful spending is the opposite of saving.

    It is also FACT, that a person has limited time on his/her hands and working longer hours means less time for the children.

    Lastly I mentioned nothing about something abstract like values and traditions. I mentioned the family as an ECONOMIC UNIT.

    Leftists speak of free speech yet vehemently denounce any conservative who disagrees with them. Leftists claim only the right fear monger when their cried of Fascist Police State in America makes them look like fools. Bernie Sanders supporters say they are non-violent but endlessly run their mouths about 'pitchforks and torches', and revolutions, and how the events in france is showing us americans, 'how it's done'.
  18. Throatpunch

    Throatpunch Banned

    Apr 14, 2016
    @Illuminati Confirmed!
    He does not represent the right wing side of the spectrum, and as a right wing person I disagree with quite a few of his opinions. He has also managed to cultivate the idea that all right wing people are anti establishment, since he enthusiastically supports Trump, and I would prefer Romney or Bush. He is also anti welfare and probably believes in social Darwinism.
    So no you probably are not getting a proper representation.
    @Izak yes that thread was pure bullshit.
  19. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    I dare to disagree with the left so now I am the evil corporate boogeyman. Like there no such thing as a fucking middle position. Guess leftists can be like G.W. too, your either for Panders/Shillary or against them.
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  20. AskWazzup

    AskWazzup Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2008
    Is that right? I never heard about this, how did this "brother-making" ceremony worked and what are good examples of this?