Ashley Cheng: nobody's talking

drakesteele said:
If you are against it from the get-go because it's first person, get over it - tech moves on, and first person is more immersive - hence the reason that most RPGs have gone that route now. When VR comes of age, most RPGs will use that, and there you'll be, complaining that you can't see yourself without having to go find a mirror because there's no third-person isometric view mode! Let it GO already!

I understand, this is the kind of bullshit why people get banned here...educate yerself on basic concepts concerning Fallout design, which has nothing to do with 'tech moving on' and wipe buzzwords from your arguments, which make you look like a drooling moron...hope this helps.
 
Actually...

Top view was how RPGs were done when all we had was 2-D graphics, and while they were great, technology has moved on.

I absolutely LOVED all the Ultima series, and they were flat, top-view, character-based graphics... Heck I used to play Nethack and that was literally characters only. Used to play it for hours.

Top view, isometric views, are going back, and not forward. 3D is the current state of the art, and VR is the next level coming.

You are mistaken if you think otherwise. Trust me. I've been using computers since 1981, and have been a computer technician since I was 16 back in 1986, training people on and fixing their Commodore 64s and Apple ][s, and I've seen the technologies come and go.

The progression has been:
ASCII top-view (Nethack) -> custom character ASCII top-view (Ultima) -> black and white top-view and isometric views (a few mac RPGs and such) -> Color top-view and isometrics (Fallout 1/2) -> Non-hardware-accelerated 3D (aka Doom) -> DirectX accelerated 3D top/isometric-views (NeverWinter nights) -> Full 3D First-Person (Ultima IX/Morrowind/Oblivion/FALLOUT3)

Now if you're counting The Bard's Tale originals and some of the other dungeon crawlers as "First Person" um... No. They were still pictures of hallways. Not quite the same thing. They didn't move in the same way true first-person does. Nice try.

And, by the way, I read the comments here before I posted.

- Drake Steele,
MVE, MusicWorld3D.com
 
Re: Actually...

drakesteele said:
Trust me. I've been using computers since 1981, and have been a computer technician since I was 16 back in 1986
And working in PR ever since ? Or is it the years that begin to take their toll on your memory ?


drakesteele said:
The progression has been: [...] Color top-view and isometrics (Fallout 1/2) -> Non-hardware-accelerated 3D (aka Doom)
Funny that Doom got out 3 to 4 years before FO1, and that basically Duke Nukem got out 1 year before FO1.
Unfunny for you that you mix FPS and RPGs because it invalidates your whole point.
 
LOL!

I never said that there wasn't a place for isometric view games... just that the tech behind them is in the past, where first person immersion is the current state of tech, and where most people seem to like to play. Hence the huge popularity of the last two Elder Scrolls games, as well as the bazillion FPS and other first person RPGs being made.

Trying to go back to isometrics after all these years would feel like going back, IMHO.

And I am allowed my opinion, just as you are.

I just wish people would let them make the game and see how it is before you judge it. You have not played it, and the trailer, screenshots, and such have, to my eye, caught the FEEL of the original games very well.

Give it a chance before you all pile on and tear it down!

Sheesh!

- Drake
 
Re: Actually...

Brother None said:
drakesteele said:
Top view, isometric views, are going back, and not forward.

Yeah, we all know this game is slated to be a major flop.

Now now. I think you're getting alittle beyond the context here by introducing a RTS. There are some variables here that aren't present in Fallout, like the management of whole armies.

I think a slightly more valid point deals with ideas of "innovation" and "immersion" ...

Right now, isometric would infact be more innovative, or atleast daring, than first person.

And as for immersion. I totally get into books and movies... yet none of them put me in the driver seat. Infact, I find it far more immersive to be separated from the character, to play the game as if I'm watching a movie, because the abstraction (the fact that I'm operating a keyboard, a mouse, and staring at a screen/ the fact that I'm not really there) is less prevalent (by virtue of it's natural presence).
 
So, a top-down view is more tactically oriented, is what you're saying?

Also, it's great that you use the oldest Ultima games and nethack as indicative of a top-down view, instead of Neverwinter Nights 2. Very selective of you.
 
Re: LOL!

drakesteele said:
I never said that there wasn't a place for isometric view games...

If there's a place for them, why do you claim it's unreasonable Fallout 3 could be isometric? Why can't Fallout 3 be one of those games occupying the place isometric has?

I think you're getting alittle beyond the context here by introducing a RTS.

I'm doing whatnow? I'm not the one making broad, all-inclusive remarks like "Top view, isometric views, are going back, and not forward."

Right now, isometric would infact be more innovative, or atleast daring, than first person.

Innovation and daring overlap, and this example shows exactly why. It's not innovative to do an isometric game, nor to a first-person game, they've both been done before. The reason isometric gets "innovation" points is because it's daring, because nobody is doing it.

Bethesda, not a very daring company.
 
Drakesteele, stop being a moron. Again: just because a technology exists does not mean it has to be used at every place you can. That's a surefire way to fuck things up, as history has taught us again and again and again.
People did not start opening every door with gunpowder when they first discovered it. No one throws out old technology *if that old technology still has merits new technology doesn't*.

Also, a 3D view *in no way* conflicts with an isometric view. The 'technology' of today isn't first-person view, but rather 3d-engines.
 
Wooz said:
Allright, newbies, please refrain from posts that go "Lawl, Bethesda sux its dum and is evilzors".

If you have something to complain about, explain your motives. Back up your rant with arguments. One-liner posts like the one mentioned above doesn't only make you look stupid, it makes the rest of the community look exactly like we've being painted as: rabid fanboys.

So please, kind sirs. If you don't to look like a troll that's joined two days ago just to denigrate the community by spouting this kind of blabber, put some thought into your posts. It doesn't hurt.

Needless to say, we've been having a lot of gimmick accounts lately, and my patience grows extremely thin whenever I read "u guyz jus give a chance, stoopid fanbois" or "bethe$da is satan".


Well if that was aimed at me forgive me for being sarcastic at what I see to be a gaming company doing everything it can to silence those who disent.

As far as the age old Turn based isometric is dead all hail First Person as the only way to go someone needs to tell Sid Myers that Civ 5 needs to be first person, Blizzard that SC2 needs to be redone, ect.
 
Re: LOL!

Brother None said:
If there's a place for them, why do you claim it's unreasonable Fallout 3 could be isometric? Why can't Fallout 3 be one of those games occupying the place isometric has?

You'd think it'd make sense considering the first two. :wink:

I'm doing whatnow? I'm not the one making broad, all-inclusive remarks like "Top view, isometric views, are going back, and not forward."

Fine fine. I'll stay out of the way next time you fight fire with napalm. :roll:

The reason isometric gets "innovation" points is because it's daring, because nobody is doing it.

Bethesda, not a very daring company.

Thanks. I was trying to get at that, but it just didn't come out right in my mess of a parentheses.
 
Re: LOL!

drakesteele said:
I never said that there wasn't a place for isometric view games... just that the tech behind them is in the past
'Pictures of hallways' as you put it are still first person, if that's the point you are viewing them from. So if the technology behind FP games can move on why can't the technology behind isometric games?

drakesteele said:
where first person immersion is the current state of tech, and where most people seem to like to play.
People like playing games, if the only games being made are First Person then that's what they'll buy. It doesn't mean that it's an improvement, just that today's developers have a lack of imagination or are hampered by corporate bean counters. And again first person doesn't = immersion.

drakesteele said:
Trying to go back to isometrics after all these years would feel like going back, IMHO.
Yeah in your opinion. But a beautifully made pre-rendered 2d isometric game with the same hype behind it as Fallout 3 will get, could also feel like a breath of fresh air in today's oversaturated FP market. IMHO.

drakesteele said:
I just wish people would let them make the game and see how it is before you judge it.
So if they had bought the rights to do the next flight simulator game instead, and announced it was going to be a cross-platform game. PGR3 style default rear view, with simplistic two dial dashboard and dumbed down, for the 360 controller, controls. Do you think fans of the previous games would be happy, or happy to wait and play the game before venting their anger?

drakesteele said:
You have not played it, and the trailer, screenshots, and such have, to my eye, caught the FEEL of the original games very well.
Then you are blind and probably have never played the originals.
 
where first person immersion is the current state of tech

Well you are an old gamer, so you might remember Ultima Underworld? The Krondor series? Bards Tale? Those games are a lot older than the top down Fallout, so we one could say that Fallout going 1st person is a step back. Hell QuakeGL predates Fallout too.

Come to think of it Arena and Dagerfall also predates Fallout, so why do you believe there has to be a linear progression when historically that wasn't the case?

Well because of consoles. Clumsy controls and the need to show off high def high candy is the only reason, it's a case of console gaming system limitations and visual standards and nothing like a technical upgrade as you imply. History is different from what you think, this is not about expanding horizons, but the attempt to under valuate the PC in order to allow the main consoles and the companies behind them to grow sales wise on platforms that are less prone to piracy (in the west, in many parts of Asia things are different).

Here is something from Tim Shaffer:
I think the greatest achievement of the Xbox [360] is not its performance or any of the fancy graphics features, but in how I interact with the machine. The relationship you have with your Xbox is the most next-gen thing about it.

How I play it is this: I flop down on the couch...I turn on the 360. I look to see if any of my friends are online and I look at what they are playing. Then I see what new Xbox Live Arcade games or demos or videos are available to download. And then - and only then - do I start to figure out what I'm going to play...

...I'm turning on the machine before I know what I'm going to play. Instead of thinking, "I'm going to play Gears of War," I'm thinking, "I'm going to play some Xbox."

Wonderful. the thing is that's what I have been doing on my PC for years and years... actually that's what most PCGamers have been doing for years and years!

But people buy this as something "new and exciting that only an XBox360 is capable"... sounds foolish, doesn't it?

As many believe this idea, many others like drakesteele like to believe there are technical rules that state First Person is the only way to go.

It isn't, but passing through hype and having a critical view of current affairs is difficult, so everyone buys the hype, they are surrounded by it and it's almost impossible to see through the walls of cliches and acquire a new perception.

That's next gen gaming for you, thin in the fundamentals, fat on induced hype and "creative" statements.

Oh well
 
Heh, I think Bethy isn't talking, because they have much bigger bomb than NuKuLAR BOMb LauNCHa, and V.A.T.S., orcs etc. up in their sleeve.
 
Heh, I think Bethy isn't talking, because they have much bigger bomb than NuKuLAR BOMb LauNCHa, and V.A.T.S., orcs etc. up in their sleeve.
A refuel the car minigame… YES!!
 
First-person view has been used way back in 1980
.......
Many RPG this day have been going back to their roots. Either First-person view or third-person view.
How innovation is that! :lol:
 
I've always enjoyed tactical combat more from a top down perspective.

Take the old Sega Genesis title, Dungeons & Dragons: Warriors of the Eternal Sun. It had both first person AND isometric turn based combat.

The first person parts were in dungeons and pretty much sucked. You did sorta take turns with the enemies, but for the most part what you'd want to do is set up your party to repeatedly use their ranged weapons. Basically.. it turned an RPG into a first person shooter whenever you were inside a dungeon of any sort. >.<

The isometric turn based play, however, was MUCH better.

The ideal Fallout 3, to me, would include first person exploration and switch to third person isometric turn based whenever combat is initiated. Otherwise... I just don't see it working.

There are enough FPS games out there (Resistance for the PS2 comes to mind as something that would very likely be better than a Fallout FPS).

Just give the Fallout fans their turn based isometric combat and stick to the canon (or whatever it's called) and we'll be happy.

I'm hopeful that the super mutant is just placeholder art until they get the physique right. Nobody has actually bothered to explain what is wrong with it, from the posts I've read (and I've read a lot of them), other than saying it looks more like an orc. Actually it looks like what you'd imagine a modernized super mutant to look like. It's not a classical type monster. It's something you'd imaging seeing in a modern type of game. Take a look at some older sci fi movie monsters. Even a look at Harryhausen's stuff would help. Even in Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, which Bethesda helped fund and did voicework for, has those half-fish people who'd make better super mutants than the one I seen in the article.
call-cthulhu-dark-corners-earth-1.jpg
The monsters shouldn't have rippled body builder type physiques. It just seems wrong and doesn't look very Fallouty.. at all. Make em more chunky (but not like the Fallout Tactics ones). The small heads on your monsters doesn't seem to help their image much either.

Also the big mutant reminds me of something I'd see in Resistance or Resident Evil. Heck even something like this would look better:
giant.jpg


Edit: Further comment. Do NOT make the ghouls all scary looking. It should be based on the individual. Look at the difference between Harold and Set. *sighs* I just know they're gonna have some zombie-ish looking ghouls in some future screenshots. >.<

And like most others I was also bothered by the "nuclear catapult" thing, which sounds dumb... and the nuclear car engine. Not to mention the inclusion of, what seems like, large numbers of Super Mutants and Brotherhood of Steel. If they're in the game then there should be, at most, maybe 5 to 10 from each group.

The main thing I see from the article, is that Bethesda seems to think the only 50's influence is in the propaganda. Like all the old pre-war stuff should be 50's style.. but everything else can be something you'd envision from the 90's and on?

Everything has to be 50's inspired. You need to think 50's from head to toe when it comes to Fallout. Even the floaters and other Fallout mutants are 50's inspired:

OS3.jpg

OS50.jpg


Hmm.. this looks like it could inspire a cool new monster:

OS43.jpg


You don't really need to rely so heavily on super mutants, brotherhood of steel, deathclaws, etc.. Use your head and 50's references to invent some new critters, factions, etc..
 
Lets face it, now adays the mainstream gamer has trouble getting into a game/character. Making a railroad/FP-view game helps the imagination-impaired gamers to have some fun.
This is aggravating the imaginative gamer, those who are capable of roleplay and making their own character.

Take the Mutants for example. When you say mutant now adays people think X-men, Super power infused Super models. Whats closest to a Fallout mutant in recent years...an ork. So Beth made it simple get an ork-like creature stick mutant on it and BAM everyone will get it. Big, ugly, strong, not the sharpest tool in the shed.

The nuclear catapult should be considered as the FPS's instakill weapon. Think unreal's Redeemer, counterstrike's Awp, RtcW:ET's Panzerfaust. No need to go on about this i take it.

How they came to VATS is probably quite simple. Take your FPS game, add a pauze option from a similar game.

OW wait, we are forgetting something. The aimed shot system! Well lets add it in with the pauze option because how else are we going to use it in a RT FPS.
WAIT! There is more, we still need to find a use for those blasted AP thingies. Fine add them to the pauze option, dont want to force people to play the entire game using that option else we might aswel make it a TB game. *Shareholders and developers at Beth laughing their rears off*

On another note, what is happening to Fallout at the moment is something we have been withnessing for years. The decline of Gaming culture. The "new wave gamers" dont care about the roots. They want flashy, easy,FPS-type and short games so they can spend little time mastering and finishing that what they have bought. Shareholders agree! Shorter games = faster market openings.

Im going to end my ranting now.
 
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