Bethesda v. Interplay: Transcripts

Dionysus said:
The case is much stronger with the MMO.

That is the generally accepted viewpoint that has been established by those who have not read the whole 218 pages of court transcripts.

I have no problem with that view point continuing to be the accepted one for the time being.

In fact, It is for my advantage that this viewpoint is prevalent until you see the enforceability of the actual contract based on the opinion of the court system and not the assumptions of those not associated with contract law and legalese in general.

You have to have iron clad specifics in a contract otherwise he said/she said will have you end up in court for years slinging mud to see what sticks.

7 Lawyers for Bethesda wrote up that contract?

Cooks in Kitchen anyone?

Light bulb changers anyone?

anyone?

anyone?

Beuler?

http://www.bofunk.com/video/3041/ferris_beuler_parody.html
 
In terms of this whole issue... has Beth ever published (let alone developed) an MMO, especially a successful one? Clearly no to the latter, because I can't find anything about one. Seems to me like they're just running their mouths on that one; no way they should really know jack about how to make an MMO, as far as I can tell.

They have set up a separate division, ZeniMax Online Studios, and hired people with MMO experience.
 
cdoublejj said:
How can beth claim that in their experience you need 100 or more people in the production of the MMO when they can't even make a good fps? you know the one thats cost 50 bucks but, only scored 2 out of 10 by most reviewers some being 1.5/10.

now, now, i know they have good MMOs but, i'd try to throw that one at beth if i could. also people should do class action suite against beth for rouge warrior i bet a lot of people pre ordered it or bought it at stores.

just look at fallen earth they have 12 people on the mmo and about 8 more working for their company and thats a great mmo
 
Cheers to that.

But big teams are needed if you're going for lots of detail and top-notch graphics... And let me remind you all that that's what what Bethesda thinks games are ALL about: being able to pick everything in the world and good graphics.
 
Morbus said:
But big teams are needed if you're going for lots of detail and top-notch graphics... And let me remind you all that that's what what Bethesda thinks games are ALL about: being able to pick everything in the world and good graphics.

I'd say they haven't really showed any major skills in the graphics department, either, with a possible exception being parts of their landscapes.

Anyway, that lawyer really seemed pretty incompetent, no wonder they got rid of him. :?
 
Tagaziel said:
MR. MARBURY: So, the other condition is full scale development and it is also clear that they have not engaged in full scale Development of this MMO. The witness we believe will testify consistently with his deposition, that they have approximately 20 people working, or at least he thought there were 20 people working in Bulgaria on this project when he visited back in March of 2009. We will put on testimony that that is far, far less than what you need to make one of these in full scale development. Based on our own experience in the MMO field, you need more than a hundred people working on this to be in full scale development.
Uhh... Bethesda has no experience in the MMO field unless you count the projects which they have been working on for less time than Interplay. I'm sure that their argument is demonstratively false (I'm pretty sure I've heard of projects with less people) and that Interplay pointed that out or (more likely) plans to point it out in the future.

King of Creation said:
It's also interesting how Interplay's lawyer has a bit of banter with the judge like they're old pals or something, while the judge treats Bethesda's lawyer like a little kid.
I'd say that the judge and Interplay's lawyer have a legal discussion like professionals while Bethesda's lawyer acts like a rookie law student and the judge treats him accordingly. This excerpt is particularly damning and I'm skeptical that he's that bad throughout the whole hearing. Granted, I think that he had a tough argument to make that Interplay was somehow damaging their trademark when they haven't (to my knowledge) even released anything that has been officially labeled as from the Fallout MMO (even if we all know that's what Project V13 is).

Cimmerian Nights said:
Interplay definately seems to have their shit in order moreso than the Bethesda guy, who's all like kinda not articulate and stuff, you know.
Well when you, you know, work with Todd Howard and Pete Hines you, you know, pick up some of their bad, you know, speaking habits.

Dionysus said:
I think that the suit regarding the original games is just an attempt to put pressure on IP, but you are looking at it the wrong way. In the contract, I don't think it matters whether they've used the marketing materials in the past. In this case, I believe that Bethesda is contending that IP owns the older games, but doesn't necessarily have the right to sell them with the name "Fallout" on the box with that little lightning bolt through the "O" without Beth's written permission.
Interplay is contending that they were acting in good faith as all of the marketing materials used are identical to those used in the past. Further (if I read it right), they argue that marking materials related to past games are exempt (which I don't see, but he may not have said it).

orionquest said:
That is the generally accepted viewpoint that has been established by those who have not read the whole 218 pages of court transcripts.
Link us to them or your blowing smoke.

And know we know why Bethesda switched firms. Say what you will about Interplay as a game developer and publisher but you have to give them that their legal team seems top notch.
 
Bethesda has no experience in the MMO field unless you count the projects which they have been working on for less time than Interplay.

Bethesda itself might have no experience, but people heading ZeniMax Online do.
 
Ausir said:
Bethesda itself might have no experience, but people heading ZeniMax Online do.
Dark Age of Camelot is the only one of Matt Firor's MMOs that I've heard of and that seems to have been very successful, but I could be wrong. Still, he did say "our own experience" meaning ZeniMax's experience which is still none, even if they have employees with experience (which would be expected).
 
UncannyGarlic said:
Interplay is contending that they were acting in good faith as all of the marketing materials used are identical to those used in the past. Further (if I read it right), they argue that marking materials related to past games are exempt (which I don't see, but he may not have said it).
I'm just saying that the exemption isn't in the contract. It's more of an assumption that I made when I first read it (and I assume other people did too), but it isn't stated AFAIK. That part of the contract really didn't seem to be written very well, which is part of the reason that Beth doesn't have any case.

TheWesDude said:
OSI created ultima online with like 20-30 people
I don't think that's the best example here.

IP signed a contract that basically said that they need to transform themselves into a well-funded MMO dev in a couple years. That was obviously the spirit of the deal, and there were specific benchmarks that made that pretty clear. There's no reason to argue about the smallest number of people that could possibly make a profitable MMO.
 
Dionysus said:
I'm just saying that the exemption isn't in the contract. It's more of an assumption that I made when I first read it (and I assume other people did too), but it isn't stated AFAIK. That part of the contract really didn't seem to be written very well, which is part of the reason that Beth doesn't have any case.
Correct and it's one of the things I noticed when I read through it. That said, there may be legal precedents set that give Interplay lead in their argument that they were acting in good faith of the deal.

Dionysus said:
IP signed a contract that basically said that they need to transform themselves into a well-funded MMO dev in a couple years. That was obviously the spirit of the deal, and there were specific benchmarks that made that pretty clear. There's no reason to argue about the smallest number of people that could possibly make a profitable MMO.
Oh I completely agree but he talks about employee numbers and there was no mention of that in the document I've read, only finance and development requirements. Beth was using employee numbers to argue that the amount of staff that Interplay had working on the project was not sufficient, so pointing out MMOs that have been made with such numbers is relevant to the argument (as that is the argument). I think that Beth has them sunk in terms of not meeting the finance requirements but I see no ground for them to walk on in terms of development. I think that ZeniMax is just taking a shotgun legal approach and seeing what ends up sticking.

EDIT:
Ausir said:
Well, and they're pretty obviously working on Elder Scrolls Online now.
Right, I was merely pointing out that they (as a company, not some of the individuals involved) don't have significant experience developing MMOs and certainly no more than IP. Staff-wise, the president of the online devision has more experience than the president of Interplay but it sounds like (from his bio) that the only successful MMO that he's been involved with was Dark Age of Camelot (on which he was VP of Development and an Executive Producer). That said, looking at the credits of Dark Age of Camelot, that seems to be where they got their staff numbers from.
 
UncannyGarlic said:
Oh I completely agree but he talks about employee numbers and there was no mention of that in the document I've read, only finance and development requirements.
I think he is suggesting that they would need to have >20 people at their company if they were really in "full-scale" development of a 30 million dollar MMO. But I agree that there's no reason to even bring that up. It should be enough to point out that they didn't raise the cash and they aren't even developing the game entirely in house.
 
"...you need more than a hundred people working on this to be in full scale development."

someone should tell the people over there at vendetta online that.
last i heard they were pretty far under 20 people...maybe thats changed now...but when they started i'm pretty sure they were more like 10.
 
Ausir said:
Well, and they're pretty obviously working on Elder Scrolls Online now.
#
Which would not surprise me if it happens under the subervision from the same people that are responsible for Oblivion.

You can have the best team with the greatest experience in the world but it all helps in the end not much if the person in charge has no knowledge about MMORGs or is going in a different direction. But maybe I am completely wrong, it seemst Oblivion sold like hotcakes.

We will have to wait and see. But there have been so far more MMORGS that have failed compared to those that really have been successful for the company. I dont say that ZenimaxOnline has no chance in this field, but I would say that they better come up with a real outstanding design or they simply wont have enough subscribers.
 
UncannyGarlic said:
orionquest said:
That is the generally accepted viewpoint that has been established by those who have not read the whole 218 pages of court transcripts.
Link us to them or your blowing smoke.

It's called Piece meal for a reason, the information will be released gradually.

Most people do not have the discipline to sift through 218 pages in one sitting, especially hyperactive gamers like us.

There's more where that came from.

All I will say for now in terms of release:

"That would be great." :mrgreen:

The Goliath that is Zenimax and their subsidiary Bethesda will not win the appeal of the preliminary injunction, regardless of how much dirt their next in line lawyer is working on throwing hoping it sticks.

What they may do is reveal the uncertainty of enforceability of the APA parts they are arguing for due to their ambiguity.

Bethesda's now deposed lawyer likes to talk about Public companies and disclosure and all but they were warned not to go down the path they are going since it is detrimental to their organization but they had to take the case to court and based on their actions that were unlawful and which have caused the tarnishing of Interplay's name in the market place, there is precedent for damage relief.

Bethesda has argued that Interplay's actions harm Bethesda financially.

Interplay has argued for and presented actual evidence of unlawful actions(based on the wording of the APA/TLA) that Bethesda has actually damaged Interplay financially.

There are no specifics in the contract that ban digital distribution of assets that Interplay developed and is selling.

Via "legal" arm twisting and sheer size of Bethesda and their horde of lawyers, Interplay partners were stopped from allowing Interplay to sell Interplay's Fallout Games digitally.

This was done before the April 2009 Deadline for the start of "full production" and securing 30$ million funding on Fallout MMO.

Full Production terms are not defined at all in the contract.

How the $30 million dollars is actually secured and whether or not the money must be available in a bank account, as a line of credit, does it have to be paid all at once(ask yourself, or does anybody ever pay developers up front fees for work? or weekly, biweekly or monthly?)

I will not yet disclose something myself and others consider very important that was discussed in the court transcripts, no matter how many times I am accused of blowing smoke or grand standing.

Ask yourself(in a Peter Lynch kind of way) when you are first to put forth the effort to find out publicly available information that is not known about by more than a few, would you easily shout it from the roof tops?

What would be the point?

All Interplay needed was a White Knight, and in a convoluted way, Bethesda's taking Interplay to court is that White Knight.

By unlawfully suing Interplay in a court of law on clearly indefensible grounds not in the contract, Bethesda has materially harmed Interplay and they are liable for damages and we have not even gotten to the Fallout MMO issue yet :mrgreen:

After the appeal is tossed out in the court of law, the parties can proceed to a contract court of law and not a Trademark one.

There, Interplay will argue that Bethesda violated many terms of the APA agreement before Interplay's arguable violations and in terms of contract violations, those who violate earlier set a precedence to the validity of the contract.
 
THE COURT: But in terms of preliminary injunctive relief on that, if they're not doing it and they don't have the financing, what is it that you need in terms of preliminary injunctive relief?

MR. MARBURY: Well, Your Honor, they claim that they're doing it. They've testified --

THE COURT: They haven't put it up on the web though. I mean, this is where the two sort of blur. They took it down. They're not advertising to anybody that they're developing it. What is it you need them to stop immediately, as opposed to once you prevail?

I've read a lot of court summaries and transcripts in my studies (albeit my specialism lies more in Russian and - to a lesser extent - Dutch law than US law), and this might well be the lulziest exchange I've ever seen.

No wonder the dude was fired.
 
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