Biggest Problem With Fallout 3?

[Sander]

Ok let's try this a different way. WHY and how does fallout 3 skew off the storyline. All I have read is just complaints, but very few people actually explain why they are upset with it. Most people just seem to bring up the fact that its fallout on the oblivion engine or "lame, I can kill people with a teddy bear".

Problems with the storyline? Well, here are a few:
- The Brotherhood of Steel turned from an isolationist group whose main goal was protecting technology, into a vigilante goodie-two-shoes organisation. Not to mention the fact that they've been suddenly transposed over the entire continent
- You are forced to leave the Vault to go after your father. A bit constricting, but not really a big point for any of us.
- It appears that Super Mutants have lost any intelligence, although this might still change. They do look like a bunch of orcs, though.
- The only moral choice we've seen so far is the choice between blowing up an entire town with a nuclear bomb, or not doing it.
- Ghouls shoot radiation rays (yes, radiation rays)
- The Enclave has just transposed itself over the continent as well, and is using eyebots to transmit patriotic messages - while the Enclave in Fallout 2 did its utmost to stay completely out of sight (not to mention that they got bombed to bits).

There's lots more, but most of it is somewhat minor. It's mostly a general combination of things that lead to a complete misinterpretation of the Fallout universe. Nuclear energy is treated like a joke, while it was treated with fear and awe in the first games (see the Fatman mini-nuke launcher, or the exploding cars in Fallout 3), for instance.

1. People seem to think this is going to end up being like the horror that was bioshock (Now THAT game ruined the system shock series). What I mean by that is that a lot of system shock 2 players were hoping for bioshock to be somewhat similar to system shock 2 and the bioshock developers totally choked on that one.

And here's the kicker: that wasn't even an official sequel and people were pissed about it. We're getting an official sequel that doesn't look like the original in any way, and we're *not* supposed to be pissed?

I only have 2 more things I do want to ask you guys though is this... I know a lot of you that have played fallout have played system shock 2 as well. As system shock 2 was a fps rpg, how come everyone thinks that that game rocked and fallout 3 will suck?

I love FIFA '98. If Fallout 3 turned into FIFA '98 on steroids I wouldn't be happy either.

The other question is...honestly what other company would you have liked to make fallout 3? Bethesda was the only logical choice out of all the game developers to create Fallout 3 (If someone says blizzard or sony bad things will happen to you ).

Troika would've been nice, Obsidian would've worked nicely as well. Hell, we don't have a problem with the fact that Bethesda got the license, most of us didn't care whatsoever about Bethesda at all and don't give two shits about Oblivion or Morrowind. We're pissed about what they're doing with Fallout 3, not the fact that they're Bethesda.

 

[Confalone]

As system shock 2 was a fps rpg, how come everyone thinks that that game rocked and fallout 3 will suck?

dont forget about Deus Ex that game was an incredible example of how FPS and RPG can be good bedfellows

btw: awesome name, that episode of the simpsons was great

 

[Chesty La'Rou]

THANK YOU sander... thats the kind of material I was looking for

And also after reading some of the blurbs from that recent article posted by gamekult I got a better impression of what was actually wrong with the game.

I just wanted some definate facts from some people who have actually had time to play around with the beta build, but still I don't think this game will be quite as bad is everyone is making it out to be.

And for all of those people that I may have "rubbed the wrong way", I do apologize. I just wanted to understand the situation based on facts, rather than based on theory and speculation.


P.S. I forgot to say thanks for not critically hitting me for 200 dmg with the flamer and making me do the flame dance

 

[Moving Target]

I'm probably gonna get flammed to no end for this comment.... but I really do think you guys should give this game a chance.

A chance? Sure... I'll give the game a shot, and if it's what I think it may be, I probably won't like it. BUT, I will be even-handed about it.

1. Would you rather have had bethseda make fallout 3 isometric again and royally screw it up...or go with what they know works and then try to add a lot of the fallout content to it?

Loaded question. The mechanics were in place already, all they needed was a bit of a tweak and some adjustments to make the essentially useless skills useful. Sort of like what happened between FO1 and 2 with Science.

Now, Beth DID use the basic idea of SPECIAL, but they seem to have implemented it incorrectly. For instance- since the game is no longer turn-based (no, an optional pause/bullet time slo-mo feature doesn't count) Action Points become pretty useless. And Agility, unless there's going to be something to replace the importance of Action Points, becomes far less important in the SPECIAL stats.

I can agree with the perspective thing, if only because it would take quite a bit of effort to do the coding to permanently shift from FPP to Iso, but that's still no excuse for essentially ignoring one of the things that made Fallout Fallout.

Going against the grain, as far as perspective and gameplay, was as much a part of the Fallout "experience" as the post-apoc setting was.

In fact, you could even make the case that it was MORE important, considering that the setting was essentially a patchwork post-apocalyptic ex-GURPS story. A damn fine one, with lots of clever humor, yes, but still fairly generic.

2. This one is for all the people that watched the fallout 3 footage and then post about "How it was just an oblivion gore fest and nothing else". You guys DO realize all this footage was played using the bloody mess perk right?

Yes, we do realize this. Some of us (ME!!! ) complained less about the gore and more about the horrid rag doll physics. Look at it again- it's like watching the 'death' animations in the Lego games. Just awful.

3. Everyone complained that there would NEVER be a fallout 3... then someone picks up the title and decides to actually TRY to make it a good game and now it seems like people wish it never WOULD have been made.

Y'know... there are plenty of people who would've been happy with just Fallout 1 and 2. I know I was. I wasn't expecting a Fallout 3, ever- didn't even know about Van Buren when it was in the works- and I would've gone to my grave not caring whether the third installment was made.

Now: the problem with Bethsoft isn't that they decided to make Fallout 3. They bought the IP, it's theirs to do with what they please. No, the big issue are the major changes in lore and the look of the game world.

Sander's covered the issues well enough already, so I won't repeat them. Suffice to say, it's not Bethsoft hate; it's hate for a company that's done a horrible job of staying true to the source material AND being offhanded about it besides.

 

[Lepidus]

After reading some posts on this thread, my fear is confirmed; my opinion is backed.
Bethesda, from reading interviews between them and magazines, is comprised of immature fools who believe that violent death is funny. It's physical humor at its worst.
When I first saw their E3 gameplay footage, I was rather excited by the game's gore factor, then I realized that that was the whole game...

While Interplay included intense violence in Fallout 1, they were sure to implement acutal humor (gasp!).

With Fallout 3 Bethesda is catering to fools, rather than those who enjoied the subtle and original humor of the original Fallouts.


[EDIT: and I will hate Bethesda, so long as they keep insisting upon the usage of the term "VATS".]

 

[velvatier]

*by using the term "console tards", I am by no means insulting everybody who plays console games, however I feel as though 'casual' gamers who just enjoy watching people die horrible deaths deserve the lable of retarded, or at least "Mentally Unstable"...

oh come on. so computer gamers are never casual gamers with, uh, less than sophisticated tastes?

 

[Confalone]

oh come on. so computer gamers are never casual gamers with, uh, less than sophisticated tastes?

Agreed, the same sorts of people play the same sorts of games across all mediums. If you ask me, theres not really a big difference.

 

[Aero]

I'm gonna respond to some of your remarks. Lets start with some of Sander's issues. Keep in mind I am not attacking you or your opinions just stating some info and some opinions of my own.

Problems with the storyline? Well, here are a few:
- The Brotherhood of Steel turned from an isolationist group whose main goal was protecting technology, into a vigilante goodie-two-shoes organisation. Not to mention the fact that they've been suddenly transposed over the entire continent.

There is a back story to this. The west coast BoS wanted any tech left in the pentagon.(and are still what you describe) So they sent a team east to recover it. They sent one of there best Paladins because they knew it was probally gonna be a one way trip for most of the team. Once they party made it to the east coast they met with heavy resistance so they had to inlist and train locals developing a strong bond with the humans in the area. After arguing via long range radio with the west coast faction this new pentagon based BoS decided to stay and not only continue feeding tech to the west but help the human community. See this page for a brief summary http://fallout.bethsoft.com/eng/vault/diaries_diary3-1.09.08.html

- You are forced to leave the Vault to go after your father. A bit constricting, but not really a big point for any of us.

As apposed to finding a "water chip" or G.E.C.K. ?

- It appears that Super Mutants have lost any intelligence, although this might still change. They do look like a bunch of orcs, though.

The Virus didn't effect everyone the same some mutated physically some mentally some did both. Meaning some became dumb. Dumbs easy. they band together, mate, multiply like pack of dogs.

-

The only moral choice we've seen so far is the choice between blowing up an entire town with a nuclear bomb, or not doing it.

There is also a way to completely disable the bomb if your skills are high enough.

- Ghouls shoot radiation rays (yes, radiation rays)

Yeah You got me there.

- The Enclave has just transposed itself over the continent as well, and is using eyebots to transmit patriotic messages - while the Enclave in Fallout 2 did its utmost to stay completely out of sight (not to mention that they got bombed to bits).

How do you figure? Who says they were not already there. They are the remanents of the government Of course there not all gonna be in one place. Of course there gonna have bases on the east coast. It's been a few years since the events took place in Fallout 2. Then again the east coast is a bit different. AND there in DC the original seat of government power. If they are gonna be out and about DC would be the place.

There's lots more, but most of it is somewhat minor. It's mostly a general combination of things that lead to a complete misinterpretation of the Fallout universe. Nuclear energy is treated like a joke, while it was treated with fear and awe in the first games (see the Fatman mini-nuke launcher, or the exploding cars in Fallout 3), for instance.

The original dev team had notes about being able to b low up cars in Fallout 1

Now on to some of Lepidus' remarks. (again Im not attacking anyone)

After reading some posts on this thread, my fear is confirmed; my opinion is backed.
Bethesda, from reading interviews between them and magazines, is comprised of immature fools who believe that violent death is funny. It's physical humor at its worst.
When I first saw their E3 gameplay footage, I was rather excited by the game's gore factor, then I realized that that was the whole game...

Play the game before throwing out so many names. There has barley been any content shown. Just a High level character with the bloody mess perk and all weapons in the game. Running around showing some really humorous deaths. The original games had the same the graphics just were not as good. Its not the whole game the videos from e3 is actually pretty far along in the game.

While Interplay included intense violence in Fallout 1, they were sure to implement acutal humor (gasp!).

I'm sorry but how is the Rock-it-launcher launching anything tou load into it not funny. From teddy bears to coffee cups. I'm just wondering if i can use it to launch a land mine. Besides this we haven't seen enough to tell.

[EDIT: and I will hate Bethesda, so long as they keep insisting upon the usage of the term "VATS".]

Why? It's just another acronymn. G.E.C.K. is just as bad considering what you actually got. some holodisks and a replicator to make some basic items and food stuffs.


Now I'm not saying this is the Fallout sequel I wanted to see, However I'm glad there is a sequel.

Yes there isn't an Isometric view. Maybe if blizzard would have baought the franchise....Wait then everyone would say its just Diablo with guns....I Have been reading almost everything that has come out. Some of the editors of different sights, mags, and such have had hands on the game. From 1/2 hour to 3 hours. Some of the obvious older fans of the original series are putting it down. While others Who are my age. Who played the same games I did growing up are really digging it.

I'm not a FPS kinda guy. But I'm at least gonna give the game a chance before I start ranting about it. So if it dose suck I'll come back and eat these words. Well the last part. Most my response above are facts that have been put out during various interviews and releases.

Rao

 

[Sander]

There is a back story to this. The west coast BoS wanted any tech left in the pentagon.(and are still what you describe) So they sent a team east to recover it. They sent one of there best Paladins because they knew it was probally gonna be a one way trip for most of the team. Once they party made it to the east coast they met with heavy resistance so they had to inlist and train locals developing a strong bond with the humans in the area. After arguing via long range radio with the west coast faction this new pentagon based BoS decided to stay and not only continue feeding tech to the west but help the human community. See this page for a brief summary http://fallout.bethsoft.com/eng/vault/diaries_diary3-1.09.08.html

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here.
Yet again: the fact that something is theoretically possible doesn't mean it fits with the setting.

As apposed to finding a "water chip" or G.E.C.K. ?

This is much more restricting as it restricts your character to a certain age and less so type of person.
But again: not a big point.

The Virus didn't effect everyone the same some mutated physically some mentally some did both. Meaning some became dumb. Dumbs easy. they band together, mate, multiply like pack of dogs.

You are missing the point. Super Mutants were always dumb. But there were

Also, the main point was that the graphical style is completely different.

There is also a way to completely disable the bomb if your skills are high enough.

Yes, that's part of the not-nuking the town choice. The point wasn't that this wasn't possible, the point was that this is the closest thing we've seen to any kind of moral choice, and it's hardly a hallmark of moral possibilities.

How do you figure? Who says they were not already there. They are the remanents of the government Of course there not all gonna be in one place. Of course there gonna have bases on the east coast. It's been a few years since the events took place in Fallout 2. Then again the east coast is a bit different. AND there in DC the original seat of government power. If they are gonna be out and about DC would be the place.

Ehm, Fallout 2 established that the President of the US fled to the oil tanker. Hell, they wanted to destroy all of mankind left on the surface of the world. This doesn't strike well with having a group on said mainland all the way on the other side of the continent that behaves in a completely different way.
If anything, there might be a seperate group on the East Coast, but there's no reason for them to have the same name, same suit of armour (that was developed by the West Coast Enclave after the War, by the way) etc unless they're the same group.

What Bethesda has simply done is taken several bits and pieces and decided that they wanted them all the way over on the East Coast. Instead of adding to the Fallout universe, they've taken it and completely changed it.

But again: not a very major point.

The original dev team had notes about being able to b low up cars in Fallout 1

Ehm, source?
And ehm, what cars? The only cars in Fallout 1 were completely unuseable scrap metal.

Also, anything with a working energy source in it should've been scavenged a long time ago as well, but hey.

Play the game before throwing out so many names. There has barley been any content shown. Just a High level character with the bloody mess perk and all weapons in the game. Running around showing some really humorous deaths. The original games had the same the graphics just were not as good. Its not the whole game the videos from e3 is actually pretty far along in the game.

Oh yes, it's totally not right to judge the game by what Bethesda considers to be the best things to show and promote the essence of the game. No sirreeeh.

I'm sorry but how is the Rock-it-launcher launching anything tou load into it not funny. From teddy bears to coffee cups. I'm just wondering if i can use it to launch a land mine. Besides this we haven't seen enough to tell.

I hope you can tell the difference between the darkly ironic type of humour Fallout featured, and the 'lol I can shoot teddybears' humour Fallout 3 seems to feature.

Yes there isn't an Isometric view. Maybe if blizzard would have baought the franchise....Wait then everyone would say its just Diablo with guns

Strike one for trolling.

 

[Ausir]

- The Enclave has just transposed itself over the continent as well, and is using eyebots to transmit patriotic messages - while the Enclave in Fallout 2 did its utmost to stay completely out of sight (not to mention that they got bombed to bits).

Well, as for the last part, there is also Navarro and possibly other Enclave remnants. So the faction surviving in some form is not that big of a deal. This is a completely separate issue from them being in FO3, though, especially as the main enemy.

If anything, there might be a seperate group on the East Coast, but there's no reason for them to have the same name, same suit of armour (that was developed by the West Coast Enclave after the War, by the way) etc unless they're the same group.

They have different armor, actually.

BTW, shouldn't this thread be in the FO3 board?

 

[Stiched]

Eh, I'm going to just play it and form my own opinion. Sure, it's not a real Fallout, but it could be enjoyable on it's own measures.

Call it a guilty pleasure.

 

[Hooliganmania]

This is my overall observation on Fallout 3. First off "the BOS" expansion is inevitable and that much more with an organization that is based off of acquiring technology. The whole thing with this general lyons "the current head of BOS washington" and his choice to protect the local population over technology gathering. I don't see how any of this is in conflict with the previous Fallout's. When the brotherhood actually started General Maxon executed several scientists not out of acquisition of technology but to halt the experiments that were done on people "first supermutants". To me that stinks of a effort on the behalf humanity. With that said, it's the Enclaves turn to stand in the spot light. I remember reading something once that detailed how the oil rig that the enclave used as a base of operations actually also served as a connection to some underwater city that acted in much the same way as a vault. If this is true or not, please fill me in. This may be just me but the Enclave powered armor looks suspiciously like the Bos powered armor from Fallout Tactics.

All in all the game looked great to me, it still had a retro feel and i've always wanted to step from that top down view into a immersed feel. When this game finally comes out I will play it until I am unwashed, naked, and to quote that "You are a Fallout Junkie If" list seeing percentage signs over peoples heads.

 

[Sander]

Well, as for the last part, there is also Navarro and possibly other Enclave remnants. So the faction surviving in some form is not that big of a deal. This is a completely separate issue from them being in FO3, though, especially as the main enemy.

Yes, true enough.

They have different armor, actually.

Wait, they do? Do we know that it isn't APA but that it's seperately developed?

Not a big point in any case.

BTW, shouldn't this thread be in the FO3 board?

How the hell did this get missed for so long? Moved.

This is my overall observation on Fallout 3. First off "the BOS" expansion is inevitable and that much more with an organization that is based off of acquiring technology. The whole thing with this general lyons "the current head of BOS washington" and his choice to protect the local population over technology gathering. I don't see how any of this is in conflict with the previous Fallout's.

Goddammit when will you people start reading the threads you're posting in and realise that the fact that something is theroretically possible doesn't mean that it is fitting.

When the brotherhood actually started General Maxon executed several scientists not out of acquisition of technology but to halt the experiments that were done on people "first supermutants". To me that stinks of a effort on the behalf humanity.

Yes, because executing scientists because you're disgusted with their experiments is the same as pro-actively becoming paladins for good.
What?

With that said, it's the Enclaves turn to stand in the spot light. I remember reading something once that detailed how the oil rig that the enclave used as a base of operations actually also served as a connection to some underwater city that acted in much the same way as a vault. If this is true or not, please fill me in. This may be just me but the Enclave powered armor looks suspiciously like the Bos powered armor from Fallout Tactics.

Ehm, this sounds like you read a fanfic or dreamed it up.

All in all the game looked great to me, it still had a retro feel and i've always wanted to step from that top down view into a immersed feel.

What is it with first-person people and going 'I'm immersed'?

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Hi Sander,

I think Hooliganmania got the 'Hydropolis' part (the idea that there was a big underwater city under the Poseidon Oil Rig) from the Enclave source book, that fan made pen and paper RPG.

None of it is canon as it also brought up the idea that the Enclave had thousands of soldiers.

 

[Ausir]

Wait, they do? Do we know that it isn't APA but that it's seperately developed?

Well, it looks more like the FOT power armor than the APA. It's even more similar to T-51b than to APA.

 

[squeehunter]

I really can't find any problems with the game so far other than minor things.

-Super mutants have stupid armor. What the heck is that on their chest? A grill from a car? I don't have a problem with the armor though. They might be tough but a bullet in the ass is a bullet in the ass either way.
-Super mutants are too orange and green.
-The facial animations during combat look a little stiff but then again, I haven't seen many games able to correct that.
-Bloody mess only makes it look like body parts can blow off from the middle joint down. Having more possibilites like having a torso ripped in half would make things seem a little more natural.

Things that seem to bother a lot of you don't bother me.

-The BOS as a whole haven't gone soft. Only the ones led by Lyons have. The "outcasts" mentioned in the developer diary seem to only be interested in technology still.
-I'm sure there's a good reason why Jet is in the east coast. If there's not, it's not going to bother me.
-If you can have a super powerful BB gun than what's so wrong with a gun that shoots teddybears?
-A car powered by micro-fusion cells shouldn't explode when shot but neither should a car full of gasoline but I can live with both in a game.
-What exactly is wrong with the Fat Man? I can't understand that. It was an experimental weapon that you got your hands on. It's basically just a Davey Crockett.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Ahum, might I suggest that you investigate articles on the Davy Crockett?
You might then realize how out of place a portable nuclear bomb launcher is.

 

[squeehunter]

The Fatman seems to have a much smaller yield than the DC and it's also usable by only one person but no, it still doesn't seem out of place.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Like one of my friends suggested me to ask you, why do you think there aren't any man portable nuclear launching weapons around in reality?

 

[Vrede]

Like one of my friends suggested me to ask you, why do you think there aren't any man portable nuclear launching weapons around in reality?

Well... for the same reason why there aren't any nuclear powered home central heating systems.