Black Lives Matter

@MutantScalper

WTF?

NA got screwed over just like blacks did with inequality and, in regards to blacks, slavery. The Chinese and the Irish among many other groups were unfairly maligned. What happened was terrible, PERIOD. When did I say otherwise?

@zegh8578

The whole movement is decentralized so I wouldn't attribute anything to BLM as a whole. The individual BLM groups ALSO, need to stop referring themselves as a cohesive and organised 'movement', when this is not the case at all. I am pointing out flawed and terrible ways certain BLM groups do things. Maybe I should have said the word 'some', my bad.

My Asian comments were a DIRECT RESPONSE to TRAGOS comment that because slavery happened, we can excuse the road blocking, blanket pigs comments, fuck the police, etc. This also includes violence, EVEN, if they were committed by a minority of people. Same thing because Hollywood doesn't have a larger presence of ethnic actors/actresses. His post clearly infers this with, 'I am totally for BLM', and 'your grandfathers brought these people in chains, etc.'. My grandfather didn't do jack and shit to BLACKS. Also, TRAGOS is ALSO referring to BLM as a single group, which is weird and maybe why I replied in the same manner.

Maybe because many of you folks are from outside the U.S., so you haven't experienced how things really are here.

I do not dispute that a large amount of blacks are shot, or that the level of force was arbitrarily and sometimes, unnecessarily applied.

However, these actions have happened much more frequently in CERTAIN, not ALL, states and towns, than others. To blanket judge, like TRAGOS, would be providing an inaccurate picture. As I said before, instances like these, should be judged on a jurisdictional and departmental basis. To claim ALL cops, like many BLM have, of being racist, is pretty stupid.
 
Last edited:
Crni Vuk said:
Che? Care to quote that part where I said all Trumpanzees are racists? You can't denny that SOME of the people that voted him are racist, but that's to be expected. I am sure SOME people which voted for Obama would welcome a genocide on white people. But are we talking now about the majority of people or a small minority? Because this is what this whole topic here feels like.

What I find telling, is how this page has gone pretty much for 11 pages of whining about the 'big dangerous BLM!' and how it is a disgrace to Martin Luther King or something like that.
Click to expand...

No, I'd have to go resift through that dreadful 55 some page thread on Trump from back in October/November.

It's very likely that I am not remembering the context of the post(s) in question, so I'll take your word for it and say I'm sorry for assuming you did.

A few black people have now their movement, just like the DOZENS of 'non black' organisations that are out there, which have their own agenda. Big deal. I don't know why that's such a huge problem. The thing is I have neither a huge opinion about BLM nor one against them. Infact, I really don't care about it.
Click to expand...

The issue I have with BLM is that they cropped up right around the same time the Michael Brown shootings occurred. The movement has been closely tied to the "hands-up don't shoot" rhetoric that went around when Brown was killed, despite forensic evidence and eyewitness testimony indicating he was physically assaulting a police officer.

There's police violence for sure, but I feel the movement would have been better served by not associating itself with the Michael Brown case.
 
BigGuyCIA said:
There's police violence for sure, but I feel the movement would have been better served by not associating itself with the Michael Brown case.
Click to expand...
Look, I get that, but I feel that this whole conversation is feeling a lot like this scene:


There is simply a hell lot of a toxicity in here and some kind of ... underdone ... that makes me feel unconfortable, if you get what I mean. I am not calling anyone in here a 'racist', but the context is pretty strange after all.

For example, when ever it is about BLM, someone at some point brings up statistics about crime and black communities BUT(!) dare someone brings up statistics about racism in america. How can this beee! We had a black president! How dare they to say the US is racistic! This isn't the 50s! And so on ...
We are after all talking about a minority, and people are yet somehow very fixated on that minority, and there are still a hell of a lot of issues that simply are 'racism', there is no way around it, the science on it is also very clear. Just because it might be only 10% or 20% of the American population that is openly/clearly racist, doesn't mean it's not there.

Not to mention that the 50s and 60s really are still the lifetime of a hell of a lot of people that are also STILL in present in politics, just saying! It's like with Germany, the nazis might have lost in 1945, but it took nearly 50 years to get all the fuckers out of the lower parts of the government, simply because they had to retire/die away ... and it is a rather complex and dark chapter of the early German history.
 
Last edited:
@DarkCorp fair enough

@BigGuyCIA it's not uncommon for these "unfairness-riots" happening in the wake of someone less-than-innocent having started shit. It's usually a "final drop" issue anyway. The following reaction is also common - to point out that the movement-starter wasn't necesarily so innocent. Michael Brown, I don't know anything about him - but the communitys patience as a whole was - by evidence, by how they reacted for the whole world to see - stretched so thin, that the movement triggered, regardless of MB's actual culpability.
The movement was so explosive, it couldn't very well go "oh, wait, he DID attack police. Let's wait for a genuine shooting then! Everyone, wait a while more!"
*that guy who runs from his car and gets shot 8 times in the back*
"Okay, NOW we can get angry! Don't shoot - I'm running!"

And to be totally fair, they also should riot for the homeless people, like that poor fuck who gets dogs pitted on him and then shot with a military grade rifle...
 
Personally, I acknowledge racism exists, and will always exist. I don't think anyone here who criticize the problematic BLM groups are saying they have no reason to protest. Protesting is a right of EVERY American, as long as they don't infringe on the rights of other innocents.

Yes there is an undertone here, but, for me, I am reacting because of the left constantly making race relations here akin to Nazi Germany, which they clearly are not.

For Example:

YES, there are Neo-Nazi groups and KKK groups and other white nationalist groups here, in the states. This is no different than in Germany or Russia or anywhere else.

But just BECAUSE, we have free speech, which includes hate speech, does not mean that the shit the KKK groups are wanting, are actually HAPPENING. The Trump thread ALSO is a clear example of this. Trump, Pence and company often sound silly. BUT, we DO have a seperation of powers and that will not be going away anytime soon. Just because Trump is president doesn't mean we are going to be 'dehumanizing Blacks by shooting them like dogs,' or make shooting Blacks, 'a national past time'.
 
Last edited:
@DarkCorp, than how do you explain for example, the growing number of antisemitic attacks since Trump has assumed power? To say that things are not connected, is very naive. Particularly when we're talking about rhetoric and ideology.

*Edit
Look, I see the (valid) criticism here about BLM, and I am not saying there are no issues with it. But I feel that we should see this in a much larger context and narrative, and not worry so much about a small minority of libtards, PCs and SJWs that hijack the narrative for their petty agendas. See the masses of the people, the one that protest, the one that are not some borg-like entitiy and what their message is and what actually started the BLM movement. And if you look at that, you can not denny that they definetly had a clear reason. Sadly it was loost somewhere on the way, but that doesn't make it less true or valid.

Infact, dare I say it? Look at BLM the same way you look at the Trump-voters. Look at the masses. Why they do what they do. The extemists in each group, are not representative of the majority, not even the leaders of those groups - Banon the asshole, is sure not representative of the average Trump voter.
 
DarkCorp said:
Personally, I acknowledge racism exists, and will always exist. I don't think anyone here who criticize the problematic BLM groups are saying they have no reason to protest. Protesting is a right of EVERY American, as long as they don't infringe on the rights of other innocents.

Yes there is an undertone here but, for me, I am reacting because of the left constantly making race relations here akin to Nazi Germany, which they clearly are not.

For Example:

YES, there are Neo-Nazi groups and KKK groups and other white nationalist groups here, in the states. This is no different than in Germany or Russia or anywhere else.

But just BECAUSE, we have free speech, which includes hate speech, does not mean that the shit the KKK groups are wanting, are actually HAPPENING. The Trump thread ALSO is a clear example of this. Trump, Pence and company often sound silly. BUT, we DO have a seperation of powers and that will not be going away anytime soon. Just because Trump is president doesn't mean we are going to be 'shooting blacks like dogs' or making shooting blacks, 'a national past time'.
Click to expand...

First of all, I'm gonna meet you "half way" and acknowledge that from my pov, from outside of America, I can see that some of the American left is often a bit of a wacky left... Then again, Americans do "go big" with a lot of concepts and ideas, but yeah, I can see it, and I can also see the potential for backlashes that can have (such as the political climate the past 5 years...)
When I heard about "written form consent for sexual activities", that has nothing to do with "leftism" anymore, it's just totally bonkers... Same as drunk sex constituting rape, it's moronic, half the planet would die out if all sexual interaction had to be totally sober...

About Trump, I really don't think he should be brushed off so easily. We will see though. I hope I'm wrong, but I think - and many others - that his tactics are, eh, warming up methods.
To hyperbole it a bit myself, it's kindov like saying "we will kill every mexican everywhere." "GASP!!!" Nono, I kid. We will only castrate them." "Phew!!!"

His rethorics and methods are recognizable, and have been seen before (not gonna Godwin's Law it and say WHERE it has been seen, but it has been seen other places too. China was mentioned, when the whole "alternative fact" became an issue... )
That is what worries people. about him in particular.
 
@Crni Vuk

Are you implying that because ofTrump, the government is ordering these attacks?

Are you implying that because Trump is president, local or federal law enforcement agencies, are not going to investigate these attacks? Or punish the perpetrators if found?
 
Last edited:
Tragos114 said:
This is going to be unpopular here but here it goes.
As a person outside the US, i'm totally with BLM. Fanatically so. If this was fallout nv, i'd go with the BLM ending. My outside perceptive, with whatever clarity and ignorance it may bring goes like this:

your great grandfathers brought these peope in chains , to make slaves of them. They were officially treated as inferior to the white until very recently, round about the 60s and civil rights movement ( when your secret services freakin' murdered their leaders by the way). They weren't even in the movies that much up until the 80s, and then their depiction was still shit. Fast foward a few years, and a random browsing on youtube shows tons videos of cops shooting them down like dogs and totally getting away with it. And you guys are annoyed and offended by their hate and minimal violence ( looting, burning cars etc ) and are calling them a hate group. What the hell, dudes :)
Click to expand...

I'm just going to put this here.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/13/hatred-shakes-black-lives-matter-toronto-credibility

I think they started as a noble group with good goals who have been corrupted by there more extreme members. And as for them existing in Canada, a country that has not had slaves, and also was the ending destination for the underground railroad its kinda disgusting.
 
@zegh8578

You need to understand that the TIMES, indeed the WORLD, was very different.

Back then,

The only non-white major power was Japan. Even then, they were still playing catchup.

Large scale colonization was still the fashionable norm.

Non-white nations WERE not as advanced as the whites.

The whole mentality of then and now is COMPLETELY different.



Now,

China and India, two nations who suffered heavily under colonialism, are major powers.

Vietnam has thrown off the yoke of French rule.

Apartheid is GONE.

This is why Trump will be a single term president, unless he can re-invent himself. He does NOT and WILL not, have the authority of a king.

@GonZo_626

Indeed.

BLM had always been flawed from the start.

The lack of clear organizational structure and skills, along with a desperate need to grow their numbers, directly caused all these problems. Had BLM been organized, with strict guidelines to adhere to and present to the press, controlled protests, etc, they could have been much more effective.

Seriously, the civil rights guys won with non-violence. They WON, against, dogs, fire hoses, and beatings. They beat entrenched racists, with DECADES of racism behind them.

BLM couldn't even defeat Trump in a time with a black president, desegregation, and racial mixing, among other things.
 
Last edited:
@DarkCorp absolutely not please don't missunderstand me, I am just saying his way of governing, his rhetoric and his policy creates a narrative that is inciting those incidents. Obviously this is more complex than just "Trump says it! Hur durr nazis everywhere! Trump wants to kill us all!". But Trump is doing the same for some right wing nut jobs what Hillary did for sme PC-SJWS-extreme-leftists when she lost. To say that she or Trump actually wants it, would be stupid, but to say there is no connection what so ever, would be pretty naive and sometimes there is more and sometimes there is less. I mean neither Trump nor Hillary will turn down their votes or support, no?

There are some rules that I (try) to follow, when ever topics like those come up, despite the fact that I am a strong leftist:
1. I always see my self and my oponent as human being.
2. I see my self as a democrat first and THAN as a leftist.
3. My opinion doesn't mean that I am always right.

This even got me quite often in arguments with leftists, like on various Facebook pages that I follow, when ever people come up to complain about right wingers and Nazis, because those groups are very often not the same. You just have to post to some comment, that they are right now dehumanzing a group of people (like Nazis) that are dehumanzing another group of people (for example, Muslims or Black people), and suddenly I find my self in a very strong debate about how 'we' as in the 'left' have to deal with those Nazis by 'removing' them, simply because they wouldn do the same with us as well, which I find disgussting. They aren't looking for solutions, they are looking simply for a reason to fight.

The point is, there is often no 'right' or 'wrong' in such a discussion but simply different views on the matter. And I just think that the views some people hold about BLM, are a bit to extreme.
 
zegh8578 said:
Considering half of America voted trump, logic dictates that all of them cannot possibly be the nazi-quoting fruitcakes, so yes, you're right about that.
The few and loud make the rest look bad. That happens to "blm" as well.

Then you got geniuses like @therealyesman who just has to - has to - sneak in the "maybe it's their blackness that's at fault" veiled at "maybe it's their community". I'm not even going go discuss that aspect further, cus it pisses me off too much. He can take that "veiled" racism and go shove it where the sun don't shine.
Click to expand...
Yeah. There's the fucking race card. It's not their blackness that matters here: it's the fact. You cannot complain about 'your race' being shot more than another 'race', even though YOUR 'race' do the most criminality. I am using their logic. I do hope I pissed you off, because fact IS FACT.

If you say 'black people get shot', I WILL USE 'BLACK PEOPLE' as my defense, as you used it as an offense.

If that's racism, fine i'm a racist. I'm a motherfucking racist, who states FACTS. Fuck me, right?

It is also a fact, that BLM is a group that riots; destroying their own communities and not DIPLOMATICALLY discuss things as they should be discussed. If so many in BLM don't know about diplomacy, then there is something wrong with their community.

I'm not going to prove that I am not racist, because i'm not. If you think so, then you're just plain wrong.
 
zegh8578 said:
it's not uncommon for these "unfairness-riots" happening in the wake of someone less-than-innocent having started shit. It's usually a "final drop" issue anyway. The following reaction is also common - to point out that the movement-starter wasn't necesarily so innocent. Michael Brown, I don't know anything about him - but the communitys patience as a whole was - by evidence, by how they reacted for the whole world to see - stretched so thin, that the movement triggered, regardless of MB's actual culpability.
The movement was so explosive, it couldn't very well go "oh, wait, he DID attack police. Let's wait for a genuine shooting then! Everyone, wait a while more!"
*that guy who runs from his car and gets shot 8 times in the back*
"Okay, NOW we can get angry! Don't shoot - I'm running!"

And to be totally fair, they also should riot for the homeless people, like that poor fuck who gets dogs pitted on him and then shot with a military grade rifle...
Click to expand...

It's very polarizing because these movements tend to be overzealous and baked into moral relativism (see women's march). There's so much black on black violence, yet the one thing to get people to clamor outside and march is when a police officer shoots a black teenager in a case that was still developing.
 
@Crni Vuk

Yeah, a few idiots used president Trump as an excuse to do some horrible stuff, thinking he would protect them. I personally, never would deny this.

Again, so what is your point?

My gripe has never been about above.

It IS about people who assume that because of Trump, The U.S. will turn into Nazi Germany.

My gripe IS, about people who treat every single thing as racism, especially when, it isn't the case.

My gripe is extremism, on both sides.

I think we actually agree with each other on this issue.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Sure, and we can talk about that, why and how that's happening and how it could be prevented.

Do you have some suggestions why it happens and how it could be prevented?

I mean saying, yo! Black people fuck most of the shit up! Isn't getting us anywhere at this point, snce we all know the statistics and numbers by now - as far as I am aware, no one dennied them here, but it always gets repeated like some mantra.
Click to expand...
It happens because sadly those communities aren't as educated as 'white' communities. Beware the quotation marks! There are many whites in 'black' communities, and many whites in 'black' communities.

I'm not so sure about the reason: but I think the biggest one is lack of diversity.

Let me get you some background:

Being an immigrant myself, I was only with immigrants. No natives. No ethnics, my friends even made fun of them. That meant I had no say, and they had no say, in our respective communities, which meant the society couldn't work, if there were no actual talk between the two huge societies.

This probably meant that those immigrant stayed together, and as they did not know the language and anything cultural: it never changed. Nothing ever did. Criminality is biggest within the immigrants, and some managed to escape.

Now this is completely different, but I think that diversity and lack of communication is a huge part of why the society doesn't work and why there is such a big difference between different communities.
 
I think we can all agree. Racist cops are bad, they gotta go. Racist cops who kill innocents gotta go - to jail.

That said, according to the FBI, 94% of black murder victims are killed by... other black dudes. 94%! Black dudes shooting black dudes, this is no outrage I guess.

I really find it hard to take sides in these arguments. A lot of these cops are straight up assholes, and some of the victims are total douchebags. You put straight up assholes and total douchebags in a pressure cooker environment and shits going to escalate.

Often times race isn't the factor that it's later made out to be, or better yet, able to be exploited for political hay.
Never let a good tragedy go to waste!
 
Do most black people live in black communities?

I am just assuming here, but let us say you have a town with 1 000 black people and almost no white people. Would it be such a huge suprise if most of the black people that get killed are ... killed by black people? I guess if you have a poor white area, most of the crimes on white people are also ... comitted by white people. And in Mexico, where most people are Mexicans ... most crimes are comitted by Mexicans!

That is one reason why statistics (any statistic) have always to be taken with a grain of salt.

What is more interesting is if you actually compare the data, while also making sure that it has the same basis. Like a community of white and black people and the number of crimes in said communities, and from there you can go and compare poor white communitie with poor black communities and so on. However this of course still doesn't answer the reasons, it's just a way to evaluate a situation, causation is not necessarily correlation, like black people commit more crimes ergo, black people are genetically more prone to viollence and crime! That would be of course ridiculous.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top