That's disgusting. Bush is not a good president, but he is not the next Hitler. By using such hateful rhetoric, you are helping to polarize and desensitize people. The way people throw around terms like Hitler and Nazi, we may not be able to recognize the next Hitler when he does show up.
Blind Anti-Americanism. What's it good for, y'all?
- Thread starter Ozrat
- Start date
That's disgusting. Bush is not a good president, but he is not the next Hitler. By using such hateful rhetoric, you are helping to polarize and desensitize people. The way people throw around terms like Hitler and Nazi, we may not be able to recognize the next Hitler when he does show up.
Gwydion wrote:
I disagree. The picture of burning that flag isn't an attack to the American nation, nor an attack to the *people* that support the bush administration. Basically, it could be any country's flag. The idea of it isn't spreading hate messages, on the contrary, it means to refuse any symbols that label you part of any nation.
On the contrary, I'd say nationalism and overzealous national pride help to polarize and confront people, and the above avatar is an attack to that nationalism, which is particulary strong in your beloved president's followers.
My goal isn't to "desensitize people" and spread anti-american propaganda. I'm not your classical anti-yankee dogmatic supporting Osama Ibn Laden, sporting Che Guevara apparel and calling everyone that doesn't support the october revolution a nazi. I've got many American friends, and I seriously don't give a damn if they and the idiot currently known as the US president were born on the same country. Basically, the burning flag(s) mean to leave aside one's national identity and remember that we're all human., regardless of where we were born.
Which leads us to the next point
Right. He's the next Gandhi. And Guantanamo is just a regular prison, and Oil companies won't have any profits from Iraqui oil. Censoring media and freedom of speech, our Beloved President thrives to maintain Order in his land, the one that God chose to free other nations from Tyranny and Terror. Gawd Bless Americuh.
The next hitler can't be a clone of the original one in what comes to behaviour, the world has evolved since 1933. While bush doesn't act exactly like hitler, there are a lot of common points:
- Censoring free speech (there's another thread for this subject)
- Adoration of an icon, here, the American flag
- Thesis that one's nation has been chosen by a higher entity to spread its ethos and culture to the world.
- Utter stupidity of the nation's leader, surrounded by advisors far more intelligent but rival to themselves.
I'm sorry but I can't say anything better of a man that claims the following:
That's what I call disgusting.
I disagree. The picture of burning that flag isn't an attack to the American nation, nor an attack to the *people* that support the bush administration. Basically, it could be any country's flag. The idea of it isn't spreading hate messages, on the contrary, it means to refuse any symbols that label you part of any nation.
On the contrary, I'd say nationalism and overzealous national pride help to polarize and confront people, and the above avatar is an attack to that nationalism, which is particulary strong in your beloved president's followers.
My goal isn't to "desensitize people" and spread anti-american propaganda. I'm not your classical anti-yankee dogmatic supporting Osama Ibn Laden, sporting Che Guevara apparel and calling everyone that doesn't support the october revolution a nazi. I've got many American friends, and I seriously don't give a damn if they and the idiot currently known as the US president were born on the same country. Basically, the burning flag(s) mean to leave aside one's national identity and remember that we're all human., regardless of where we were born.
Which leads us to the next point
Right. He's the next Gandhi. And Guantanamo is just a regular prison, and Oil companies won't have any profits from Iraqui oil. Censoring media and freedom of speech, our Beloved President thrives to maintain Order in his land, the one that God chose to free other nations from Tyranny and Terror. Gawd Bless Americuh.
The next hitler can't be a clone of the original one in what comes to behaviour, the world has evolved since 1933. While bush doesn't act exactly like hitler, there are a lot of common points:
- Censoring free speech (there's another thread for this subject)
- Adoration of an icon, here, the American flag
- Thesis that one's nation has been chosen by a higher entity to spread its ethos and culture to the world.
- Utter stupidity of the nation's leader, surrounded by advisors far more intelligent but rival to themselves.
I'm sorry but I can't say anything better of a man that claims the following:
.
That's what I call disgusting.
Wooz69 said:
That's too bad. I wish I could make you understand, but I really don't think that's possible. Every time you call someone a Nazi, people pay less attention. Eventually, people will be so used to hearing harsh political rhetoric that they won't pay attention. What happens when it really matters?
So, people are like Boolean equations? Hitler or Gandhi?
It's called "sarcasm".
And about the whole not-calling-a-nazi thing, I understand your point, and I agree that you shouldn't call *everyone* a national socialist, but last i checked, dubya isn't everyone.
In my eyes, that man is pretty similar to the nazi leader in what comes to foreign politics and the "f*** the UN" attitude.
Anyways I can't see anywhere on my avatar the "bush is a nazi" inscription.
Wooz69 said:
And it's been called the lowest form of wit for a reason.
I just realized this sounds more harsh than I intend. I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I just think that sarcasm is overused and all too often is detrimental to conversation.
I never even mentioned your avatar. I was refering to your Fuhrer W. Bush comment, although I see how you could misunderstand.
Mialdor900
First time out of the vault
I have a friend who keeps drawing those damned swastikas everywhere. He calls W. Bush a Nazi, too. I keep resisting the urge to kick his ass when he does, it's so f--king annoying. Okay? I'm making a giant dartboard with W. Bush's face on it, and I don't think he's a Nazi. W. Bush shares many attributes with Adolf Hitler, yes, I can see that, but he is NOT a Nazi- he's a dumbass. Rectangle-square logic. A Nazi is a dumbass but a dumbass isn't nesicarily a Nazi. There's a difference. Also, if you're going to say you're avatar doesn't have any particular flag on it, please make an effort to eliminate the distinguishing stars.
Mialdor :
I wrote
That's it. I'm not blindly categorizing dubya a nazi. I said he has, strikingly, a lot in common, and acts in a similar way, with similar arguments to back up restraining personal freedom and military action.
I'm not saying he wants to do a thousand year-long empire in the name of the master race.
And read again the thing about the avatar. I didn't say it doesn't have any particular flag, I said it could be any country's flag.
Gwydion:
So we understand ourselves although we don't agree on the subject. I guess that's better than a mindless flame war.
And while we're on the "harsh political rhetoric" subject, notice how often people who don't approve blindly a country's leadership are labelled "terrorists".
I wrote
That's it. I'm not blindly categorizing dubya a nazi. I said he has, strikingly, a lot in common, and acts in a similar way, with similar arguments to back up restraining personal freedom and military action.
I'm not saying he wants to do a thousand year-long empire in the name of the master race.
And read again the thing about the avatar. I didn't say it doesn't have any particular flag, I said it could be any country's flag.
Gwydion:
So we understand ourselves although we don't agree on the subject. I guess that's better than a mindless flame war.
And while we're on the "harsh political rhetoric" subject, notice how often people who don't approve blindly a country's leadership are labelled "terrorists".
Wooz69 said:
Yep. And that's all they need to do to avoid giving someone a fair trial. If you're even suspected of being a danger, your ability to travel is severely restricted. You may find your online activities under surveillance without just cause.
Maybe Dubya does share a lot in common with the Nazis, but I don't think it's just him. If the USA PATRIOT Act does become permanent, there's no doubt in my mind that a Democratic administration would use its powers just as readily as the Dubya administration. Governments rarely give up powers once they have been obtained.
There's one more thing which may make Dubya resemble Hitler even more, his stance towards minorities. Although he is in no way as bad as Hitler, he does feel, for instance, that homosexuals are immoral, and that women should not be in the army. While this may be a bit harsh on Dubya, he is most definately discriminating in several forms. There are the restrictions put on immigrants, and then there are things like the US PATRIOT act, which basically says that you have a lot less freedom, and gives authorities a carte blanche.
And, Gwydion, while you may think that by comparing Hitler to Bush you are "desensifying"people ,I feel that by neglecting to mention ANY negatives on ANY actions by ANY government, and by failing to make comparisons that certainly are there, you are being too sensitive, since a warning from history is a warning, and not something to be shied away from.
And, Gwydion, while you may think that by comparing Hitler to Bush you are "desensifying"people ,I feel that by neglecting to mention ANY negatives on ANY actions by ANY government, and by failing to make comparisons that certainly are there, you are being too sensitive, since a warning from history is a warning, and not something to be shied away from.
welsh
Junkmaster
For those interested, this conversation actually began here- in the archived boards-
http://www.nma-fallout.com/dcforum/ForumID2/1491.html
http://www.nma-fallout.com/dcforum/ForumID2/1491.html
Good job with that link welsh. I was just about to post that myself.
My views have changed slightly since I posted that on the old boards. Rather than thinking that Bush does fall under the definition of Facism like I did at the time, I think it's important that we remember the lessons of what that type of leadership can unleash onto the world and to make sure that they don't approach that form.
Also, I have a startling discovery about the original argument that started this current thread...
Anyways, I'm bring out this point in particular because this Polish gal is severly misinformed in this area. Lemme show you why.
Poland to Contribute Troops to Operation in Iraq
Poland backs UN-mandated multinational force for Iraq
More Googled links I found
So this crazy gal doesn't even know that her home country supports the war? What's up with that? She's vainly proud to be Polish and all that, but she doesn't even know what Poland supports? Damn...
Don't even forget about the other European countries that are behind this. Geez...
Somebody please get her a reality check and fast!
My views have changed slightly since I posted that on the old boards. Rather than thinking that Bush does fall under the definition of Facism like I did at the time, I think it's important that we remember the lessons of what that type of leadership can unleash onto the world and to make sure that they don't approach that form.
Also, I have a startling discovery about the original argument that started this current thread...
In case you couldn't tell what the hell she wrote there, she's saying that she doesn't know of any courtries that support the United States on the Iraq war. When I tried to say that England has been right with the US the entire time, she denied it by saying...PolishPrincess said:
Whoa, big time lie/ignorance. Last time I checked, Canada was an independant nation. Just because they worship inbred royal families on their currency doesn't mean that they're obligated to follow England's lead. And it's still denying the very fact that England is a major part of the war.PolishPrincess said:
Anyways, I'm bring out this point in particular because this Polish gal is severly misinformed in this area. Lemme show you why.
Poland to Contribute Troops to Operation in Iraq
Poland backs UN-mandated multinational force for Iraq
More Googled links I found
So this crazy gal doesn't even know that her home country supports the war? What's up with that? She's vainly proud to be Polish and all that, but she doesn't even know what Poland supports? Damn...
Don't even forget about the other European countries that are behind this. Geez...
Somebody please get her a reality check and fast!
Although oficially Poland supports the US in this war and even has sent occupational troops (ehich IMO is one of the most stupid ideas in the century), the decision was made by the government, which actually has only a 23% approval rate among the nation. I wouldn't venture saying only 23% of this country supports the war, only that even at the beggining of the hostilities there were a lot of folks who were against it. I recall 10000 people marching and hurling tomatoes at the cops in front of the US embassy.
To answer your question, Poland, as well as any other post soviet satellite country, officially supports the richest sponsor of its economy. And unofficially the richest sponsor of the head politician's bank accounts.
Anyways, another point that reminds me of an extreme right government in what comes to W, was the whole thing about the murderer of a doctor that made abortions. the guy was sentenced to death, and after he was killed, dubya and other gov. officials oficially mourned the murderer, making him sort of a martyr.
I have nothing against mourning a murderer, he was a person after all, the thing that disturbs me is the fact that he was the only one mourned publically of the dozens sentenced to death. "Killer for a good cause" huh?
To answer your question, Poland, as well as any other post soviet satellite country, officially supports the richest sponsor of its economy. And unofficially the richest sponsor of the head politician's bank accounts.
Anyways, another point that reminds me of an extreme right government in what comes to W, was the whole thing about the murderer of a doctor that made abortions. the guy was sentenced to death, and after he was killed, dubya and other gov. officials oficially mourned the murderer, making him sort of a martyr.
I have nothing against mourning a murderer, he was a person after all, the thing that disturbs me is the fact that he was the only one mourned publically of the dozens sentenced to death. "Killer for a good cause" huh?
I don't really think your response has a valid point.
You're forgetting that most of the post-Soviet satellite countries still remember what it's like to be living under a harsh dictatorship. Why wouldn't they want to help another country for that reason, rather than just supporting their "sponsor?"
Saying that only a certain percentage supports their country's official stance is also irrelevant. That's like saying that America doesn't really support the war because a large number of its citizens are against it. We've also had a large number of anti-war and anti-Bush protests here as well. Probably more than Poland for that matter.
Does that mean that American isn't really supporting the war? Hell no. That also goes for Poland, meaning no matter what some of the citizens say, Poland is still supporting the war. That won't chance until it's official position does.
You're forgetting that most of the post-Soviet satellite countries still remember what it's like to be living under a harsh dictatorship. Why wouldn't they want to help another country for that reason, rather than just supporting their "sponsor?"
Saying that only a certain percentage supports their country's official stance is also irrelevant. That's like saying that America doesn't really support the war because a large number of its citizens are against it. We've also had a large number of anti-war and anti-Bush protests here as well. Probably more than Poland for that matter.
Does that mean that American isn't really supporting the war? Hell no. That also goes for Poland, meaning no matter what some of the citizens say, Poland is still supporting the war. That won't chance until it's official position does.
That's precisely the same attitute that we're concerned about here NgInE. You're just a less extreme example than the girl from my school I was chatting with.
I saw her online last night, but I was too scared to strike up a chat with her and talk about this new discovery of mine involving Poland. I'll be sure to do that next time I see her and I'll post back what she has to say about it.
I saw her online last night, but I was too scared to strike up a chat with her and talk about this new discovery of mine involving Poland. I'll be sure to do that next time I see her and I'll post back what she has to say about it.
While blind anti-Americanism isn't good, blind American patriotism isn't much better. One thing I've noticed during the past few years on message board discussions is that many Americans tend to take complaints about their government (real or perceived) personal and quickly turn hostile towards against the posters. It seems like these people have some sort of rosy image of the US governments as a body that can do no wrong (at least as long as the president belongs to the "right" party) and that any challenge to that image threatens them personally. As someone who's grown up in a country where "nationalism" and "patriotism" are almost considered four-letter words, that's very hard to understand.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
There are also huge differences between a patriot and a nationalist. A patriot is one who will do anything for the good of his country, even if it means deposing the current government.
A Nationalist however believes so strongly in his country that he'll do whatever it tells him to.
Also, on George Bush having some Hitler-like traits...
Gerhard Schroeder wonn the chancellory of Germany, in part because of his anti-American platform. In appealing to the hatred of the people, Gerhard is doing a very similar thing to what Hitler said concerning the Jews. Not only that, but Schroeder is of the Teutonic people, and Hitler is of the Teutonic people! OH NO! SCHROEDER IS HITLER!
Hitler was also a brilliant public speaker. Does that make a charismatic statesman like Clinton the next Hitler? I hope not.
A Nationalist however believes so strongly in his country that he'll do whatever it tells him to.
Also, on George Bush having some Hitler-like traits...
Gerhard Schroeder wonn the chancellory of Germany, in part because of his anti-American platform. In appealing to the hatred of the people, Gerhard is doing a very similar thing to what Hitler said concerning the Jews. Not only that, but Schroeder is of the Teutonic people, and Hitler is of the Teutonic people! OH NO! SCHROEDER IS HITLER!
Hitler was also a brilliant public speaker. Does that make a charismatic statesman like Clinton the next Hitler? I hope not.
Charisma is not a deciding factor in which political stance a person takes. So you have nothing to worry about.
It can influence potitics, but it's not a root of a cause.
C'mon, that's like asking whether or not Hitler had some acting potential in him because he had facial hair similar to Charlie Chapman. It's just a part of his personality.
And exactly why are did you mention Bush and didn't say anything about him?
It can influence potitics, but it's not a root of a cause.
C'mon, that's like asking whether or not Hitler had some acting potential in him because he had facial hair similar to Charlie Chapman. It's just a part of his personality.
And exactly why are did you mention Bush and didn't say anything about him?