Can we honestly say Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3?

[Risewild]

I still don't think he gets slave shipments that often. All the slaves we see in the Pitt are already in late stages of the unique radiation disease from the Pitt, they look more like a cross of a ghoul and a human. That stage takes months or even years to happen before the final stage (which has three different results. The most common is death, then the second most common result is to turn into Wildmen and the least common result is to turn into Trogs).
If Ashur would get slaves every couple of months then we would see a large percentage of slaves not looking like this:

Spoiler

They could use brahmin carts. Not faster, but it saves some strenght as they don't have to carry everything nor have to make everyone walk. Or they can make a longer trip. Or Ashur has other, closer, suppliers.

I still think it would be impossible for a brahmin with a cart or otherwise to be able to pass the only bridge that has access to the Pitt:

Spoiler

For some reason the site seems to shrink the last picture whic is the one I reference a lot, so I will just put the link to it here:
https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.ne...er_nest.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120101010451

You can notice in the last picture that the bridge is totally blocked by car and truck husks. You can also notice in the distance a turned sideways truck that literary blocks all the length of the bridge. Then you can also notice those radioactive barrels that litter the entirety of the width of the bridge lane, those are actually radioactive and our character will get radiated and die from radiation poisoning if it stands around for too long (brahmin are not fast), then we can also see those small dots around littering the bridge, those are proximity mines and while they are wide enough (for a few cases) for a human to avoid triggering them if very careful, I don't think a brahmin can avoid exploding them.
I think that bridge was set to be a deathtrap by humans, the safest path (and I think it is on purpose and it is probably the one Ashur's raiders and slaves will usually take) is the pedestrian sidewalks that are littered with bear traps (second picture), but they are too small for anything besides a human and are even blocked by makeshift constructions that are impassable (we can see those in the last picture too) and protected by a sniper.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

The Forged who are a break off faction of the Gunners who are maybe-possibly Vault Dwellers.

As @JO'Geran said, they are not a break-off faction.

Met some of our neighbors. Call themselves "Gunners." Stronger. Sharper. Convinced a few to attempt the trials. Passed. Now they're Forged.

Their leaders weren't pleased. There was some blood, but when they saw our resolve, they chose to negotiate. Wise.

Now word has gotten around about the gang that beat the Gunners. Lots of new recruits. Seems we'll be staying in the Commonwealth after all.

This shows that whilst some Gunners ended up joining the Forged, the Forged was already a gang before then.

Also there's zero indication any of them are from a Vault.

 

[CT Phipps]

I stand corrected.

 

[naossano]

Spoiler

I still think it would be impossible for a brahmin with a cart or otherwise to be able to pass the only bridge that has access to the Pitt:

What prevent them to stop at town entrance.

 

[Risewild]

What prevent them to stop at town entrance.

That bridge I posted so many pictures of. You have to cross that bridge and it is quite a long bridge. It is very hard for just one person alone already to navigate through such small spaces without the mines going off, getting irradiated a lot, attacked by wild dogs (yes, there are wild dogs in the bridge for some reason) or getting injured by a bear trap.
I don't see people carrying heavy loads of cargo through there at all.
Also the Pitt is a closed complex, it is surrounded by walls from all sides and there is no other gate, door or entrance anywhere else. The only way to enter it is by crossing that bridge, then walk on a road until we reach a fenced area with a gate, then we have to go through the actual Downtown door to enter the Pitt.

Before the bridge there is a broken and ruined train yard that has broken tracks and is filled with rusty boxcars surrounded by cliffs and a fence that is impassable and just leads to ruined houses on top of a hill, it is pretty obvious no vehicles can go through the high cliffs either, the train tracks are littered with derailed boxcars and the tracks are also broken, so no train can pass there at all. The train tracks lead to the tunnel where the handcart that we use to go to and from the Capital Wasteland is.
Another reason I don't believe that Ashur uses brahmin is that there are no brahmin in the entire DLC, there are also no brahmin pens or carts around either. If he uses brahmin it would make sense that in this ruined train yard there would be at least a pen with brahmin or just even an empty pen.
Pictures of the train yard:
https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.ne...in_Yard.png/revision/latest?cb=20090327163745
https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.ne...steland.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120101020615

 

[rockitten]

That bridge I posted so many pictures of. You have to cross that bridge and it is quite a long bridge. It is very hard for just one person alone already to navigate through such small spaces without the mines going off, getting irradiated a lot, attacked by wild dogs (yes, there are wild dogs in the bridge for some reason) or getting injured by a bear trap.
I don't see people carrying heavy loads of cargo through there at all.

Just another shining example of Bethesda's poor world place design.........

 

[Apollyon]

Off-road campers usually make 16km MAX per day. 8 hours of sleep, 8 hours to set-up camps, collect food/water/firewood, make meals, and many rest in-between. So the 190+miles (305+km) journey from Pitt to DC would take you 2 MONTHS. And that is, if you are physically fit, with proper footwear, and do not get wounded or sick on the journey.

In Holland we have a yearly event where people hike 150 km in 4 days for fun. Even old people and children attend. The military contestants carry full backpacks and make about 40 kms a day. Unless Pittsburgh - DC is 300 km of swamps, 16km is nothing. Under pressing conditions a person could hike 60 km a day.

Why would setting up camp take 8 hours? Setting up a tent takes maybe 15 minutes. Collecting firewood can be done during the last stage of the hike and collecting water should be easy if you set up camp next to a stream. If you eat (self-made) rations preparing a meal would take the time for the water to boil + 5 minutes.
I just don't see how you can spend 8 hours setting up a camp. If you go prepared and plan your route, you can do all these things in under an hour.

8 hours of sleep is not required. 4-5 hours would still be comfortable, but a human can function with like 1 hour of sleep every day if the situation requires it.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

In Holland we have a yearly event where people hike 150 km in 4 days for fun. Even old people and children attend. The military contestants carry full backpacks and make about 40 kms a day. Unless Pittsburgh - DC is 300 km of swamps, 16km is nothing. Under pressing conditions a person could hike 60 km a day.

Why would setting up camp take 8 hours? Setting up a tent takes maybe 15 minutes. Collecting firewood can be done during the last stage of the hike and collecting water should be easy if you set up camp next to a stream. If you eat (self-made) rations preparing a meal would take the time for the water to boil + 5 minutes.
I just don't see how you can spend 8 hours setting up a camp. If you go prepared and plan your route, you can do all these things in under an hour.

8 hours of sleep is not required. 4-5 hours would still be comfortable, but a human can function with like 1 hour of sleep every day if the situation requires it.

Good to know. But if all those people are in conditions equal to ours', why the heck aren't we seeing something bigger than the NCR at the commonwealth?

It is supposed than between DC and Pitt, you simply cannot walk there (there is no implied exit of the map, like Mojave Outpost, Colorado Rover, north ease, the Zion passage, beyond boomers, north along Jacobstown...). A mire of radiation and challenging geography, apparently. There probably are tons of Deathclaws and shit! Albeit is there really clean water out of DC?

 

[Risewild]

In Holland we have a yearly event where people hike 150 km in 4 days for fun.

That gives my argument even more strength.
From the Pitt to the Capital Wasteland in a pure straight line the distance is 190.40 miles not kilometers, that is 306.4191 kilometers so those people who do 150km in 4 days would need more than twice number of days to go in a straight line from the CW to the Pitt, so 8 days (I said they would take a week, so I was being generous). But in Fallout 3 it is implied that the landscape became all rocky and uneven due to the bombs and erosion so we can imagine that the way of traveling is using the remains of roads and highways because those would be the easiest ground to use.
So if the best way to reach the Pitt is using what remains of the pre-war road system, then the distance jumps to 244.70 miles and that adds almost another 100 kilometers to the march on top of the 306 kilometers from before (393.8 kilometers in total to be precise), which would take two and a half more day (75 km each two days to reach 150 in 4 days).
So roughly it would take a traveling/raiding party ten and a half days to reach the Pitt, not counting fighting or avoiding/hiding from the wild critters and other enemies along the line, also not counting circling any areas where radiation is still a problem or where great craters exist, where land or rock slides blocked the paths, etc. All the while each person in the party is carrying enough equipment (weapons, armor, ammo, drugs) and provisions to feed themselves (food and water) for at least eight days while foraging for two days (and foraging enough to feed a small party in a wasteland would probably take a few days on it's own, so I think I am being generous).
And all of this with less than 8 hours sleep for ten nights in a row, so not only would they be tired they would probably also be underfed and dehydrated, which wouldn't make them the best raiders possible.

Now we also need to look into the logistics of such a raiding trip, if the raiders had enough supplies for this trip, then why do they need to travel so far for supplies and what guarantee do they have that they will be able to raid more supplies than they started with already? Because they have to go there and then return.
They would have to go to almost 400 km distance (if the pre-war roads are still in good enough shape) by land to raid but why?

 

[CT Phipps]

That gives my argument even more strength.
From the Pitt to the Capital Wasteland in a pure straight line the distance is 190.40 miles not kilometers, that is 306.4191 kilometers so those people who do 150km in 4 days would need more than twice number of days to go in a straight line from the CW to the Pitt, so 8 days (I said they would take a week, so I was being generous). But in Fallout 3 it is implied that the landscape became all rocky and uneven due to the bombs and erosion so we can imagine that the way of traveling is using the remains of roads and highways because those would be the easiest ground to use.
So if the best way to reach the Pitt is using what remains of the pre-war road system, then the distance jumps to 244.70 miles and that adds almost another 100 kilometers to the march on top of the 306 kilometers from before (393.8 kilometers in total to be precise), which would take two and a half more day (75 km each two days to reach 150 in 4 days).
So roughly it would take a traveling/raiding party ten and a half days to reach the Pitt, not counting fighting or avoiding/hiding from the wild critters and other enemies along the line, also not counting circling any areas where radiation is still a problem or where great craters exist, where land or rock slides blocked the paths, etc. All the while each person in the party is carrying enough equipment (weapons, armor, ammo, drugs) and provisions to feed themselves (food and water) for at least eight days while foraging for two days (and foraging enough to feed a small party in a wasteland would probably take a few days on it's own, so I think I am being generous).
And all of this with less than 8 hours sleep for ten nights in a row, so not only would they be tired they would probably also be underfed and dehydrated, which wouldn't make them the best raiders possible.

Now we also need to look into the logistics of such a raiding trip, if the raiders had enough supplies for this trip, then why do they need to travel so far for supplies and what guarantee do they have that they will be able to raid more supplies than they started with already? Because they have to go there and then return.
They would have to go to almost 400 km distance (if the pre-war roads are still in good enough shape) by land to raid but why?

I would be interested in your theory because that is exactly what they do. Of course, my theory is like the crops which keep the people of the Capital Wasteland fed, there actually are Brahmin and transportation for taking things to the Pitt but we're only seeing an abstraction because graphics aren't up to the challenge of depicting a genuine city created from the ruins of a post-apocalypse world.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Now we also need to look into the logistics of such a raiding trip, if the raiders had enough supplies for this trip, then why do they need to travel so far for supplies and what guarantee do they have that they will be able to raid more supplies than they started with already? Because they have to go there and then return.
They would have to go to almost 400 km distance (if the pre-war roads are still in good enough shape) by land to raid but why?

They'd have more incentive to keep the supplies I'd say.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

I would be interested in your theory because that is exactly what they do. Of course, my theory is like the crops which keep the people of the Capital Wasteland fed, there actually are Brahmin and transportation for taking things to the Pitt but we're only seeing an abstraction because graphics aren't up to the challenge of depicting a genuine city created from the ruins of a post-apocalypse world.

Then how is it that the other games, dare I say, even Fallout 4, do the abstraction thing at all way better? If a 1997 isometric low budget game can do that, it's completely valid to recriminate Fallout 3 from not doing so. Abstraction is one thing, fanfiction another.

If there were supposed to eb brahmin, there'd be a pen. If Raiders did these journeys, we'd find an NPC at the start of the DLC explaining how he got here, and how others do. Dead Money did this too.

 

[Risewild]

I would be interested in your theory because that is exactly what they do. Of course, my theory is like the crops which keep the people of the Capital Wasteland fed, there actually are Brahmin and transportation for taking things to the Pitt but we're only seeing an abstraction because graphics aren't up to the challenge of depicting a genuine city created from the ruins of a post-apocalypse world.

And I would be interested in the source about Bethesda saying their games are abstractions of game reality and not the game reality. I asked for the source and got none, I spent quite a while on google searching and found none so I can only think that this abstraction is your imagination once again.

How can the Capital Wasteland have non-seen crops or farms if the game doesn't show, mention or even hint at those existing? You want abstraction I will give you abstraction. Why doesn't the game have anyone mention any farm or crops or farmer or attempt to farm? I would say because there are none. Even ruins of pre-war farms are all raider bases, not even one has some NPCs living in them that could be used as an excuse for a farmer.

About the Pitt, if it was abstract it would still have a brahmin or a pen anywhere on the DLC world space. Let's imagine for a second that the brahmin in Megaton is the abstraction of what they eat. It would be there to represent that they somehow eat brahmins, you can't abstract what you don't show a little bit of.

If the game devs didn't put any effort into show at least a bit then it means they didn't even thought about it. Or are you telling me that the same people who populated the wasteland with so many skeletons in poses and telling us stories using those skeletons, that made so many notes and terminals telling us stuff that is not related to any quest or anything important would forget to put a brahmin, brahmin pen, a note, a dialogue, etc. (even a NPC called Herder or anything even with generic dialogue would give a hint that it might be true) if they intended that Ashur somehow used brahmins?

The Pitt is my favorite Fallout 3 DLC, I actually enjoy playing that one quite a lot, but I don't go around getting ideas about it that the game does not support at all and seems like it just does the opposite, it doesn't even allow a chance for those to exist (like I mentioned, the canyons, the only access point to the Pitt being a bridge blocked, mined, trapped and with feral dogs that attack anything on sight, etc).
It requires a lot of mental gymnastic to justify and go against what the game is showing us right there while we are playing.

 

[Mellow Mute]

Fallout 3 was a game that attempted being a good Fallout game and fell short in many cases but also succeeded in a few.

Fallout 4 was a game that attempted being a good stand alone story and a continuation of Fallout 3 and failed miserably in both.

But then again this comes from someone who enjoys role playing and good writing. Ask the same question to a casual Bethesda adventure fan or someone who has only played first person shooters and you will get a different response.