Can we honestly say Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3?

[Apollyon]

Why are you even debating us then?

We are not debating.

 

[mithrap]

Then why are you trying to rationalize everything?

Because Fallout is supposed to be a rational, believable world. Surprisingly enough, Bethesda only made two Fallouts (3 and 4). There are four other Fallouts out there made by other studios (F1-2, tactics and NV) that present a story taking place in a believable world.
The consensus is clearly to present the action in a realistic, believable world, not in a post apocalyptic fairytale of wacky shit and nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

We are not debating.

Discussion in 'Fallout 4'

Anywho, it's not like that I or any of us here hates who thinks that Fallout is a popamole RPG funland, that's perfectly fine as it's a game and games are supposed to enjoy however you want. But when you go and excuse the dramatic lack of coherence with "So what? It doesn't need to make sense, you work it out." Well, no. This is Fallout. Things in Fallout make sense and we ar enot supposed to headcanon except on the very petty details like "Who's the Drifter's daddy?" instead of figuring out the economy for the whole East Coast.

 

[CT Phipps]

@mithrap, they established the majority of these raiders work for the Pitt. So, no, they haven't been raiding for 200 years. There's no evidence in the game they have been. A lot of your statements are born from the desire to make them literally a separate species from regular wastelanders and make the act of being a murderous bandit who kills and robs into something unbelievable.

Which is weird since it's been happening all of history. Also, the Fiends are the same way in New Vegas.

We have non-crazy Raiders too in Paradise Falls.

In 210 years, the commonwealth citizen haven't built anything. They haven't moved anywhere. No political power emerged anywhere. No town has been built. Not a single government was born. Nothing was repaired or discovered. No resource has been produced. No new art and culture was achieved. Nobody repaired Sanctuary, or Boston, or Concord. Yet, everything stands still, every tree, every building, everything has been standing still for 210 years without human intervention, without the animals taking over.

There are some tribal societies which are, literally millennium old and relatively unchanged because of environmental factors. It's almost like the Capital Wasteland is a toxic environment where the primary concern of the populace is survival. Really, I'm stunned at how people ignore the fact it's a NUCLEAR HELLHOLE when discussing how easy it would be to rebuild things.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

Doesn't seem to be a problem. They only have dirty clothes.

 

[Jogre]

they established the majority of these raiders work for the Pitt.

We established that the Slavers were trading with the Pitt.

Pitt Raiders seem to have there own hierarchical structure and outfits. We have no indication that your average Capital Wasteland raider has anything to do with them.

We have non-crazy Raiders too in Paradise Falls.

*Slavers

There are some tribal societies which are, literally millennium old and relatively unchanged because of environmental factors. It's almost like the Capital Wasteland is a toxic environment where the primary concern of the populace is survival.

The people of the Capital Wasteland/Commonwealth/Whatever aren't tribal societies.

They still have industrial level technology(Water pumps, easily built firearms, ect.)

Plus, those tribal societies likely had limited contact with other people. There are several towns and raider gangs within the Capital Wasteland/Commonwealth. Are you honestly telling me they never thought to band toghether to protect trade routes, or none of the Raider Gangs ever thought to seize power, even in 200 years? Eventually, someone is going to come along and try and take control, and how that didn't happen over 10 generations is dumb.

Also, the Fiends are the same way in New Vegas.

The Fiends are far more believable. Firstly because they aren't literally everywhere in the game. They are the largest gang of Raiders, but are still concentrated around one area, and there aren't really that many of them.

They aren't just a bunch of faceless mooks who attack anyone. They have trade deals with slave traders and drug dealers(And will even let you in to there lair if you lie and say you are selling drugs).

Also, unlike in Fallout 3, it's actually explained how they do there raiding, and why they haven't established power yet. By talking to Motor Runner, you find out that he has been trying to stop them from attacking Freeside, because he knows the Freesiders will put up too much of a fight, so he attacked Vault 3 to give them enough resources to last a long while, before they'll need to destroy another settlement. Plus, the NCR is keeping them in check. If the NCR leaves, and the Fiends aren't dealt with, they will actually build up enough power to take over most of South Vegas, and overrun Camp McCaran(They actually raid places, and threaten to take over entire areas, rather than just running around shooting things)

Really, I'm stunned at how people ignore the fact it's a NUCLEAR HELLHOLE when discussing how easy it would be to rebuild things.

There are places in the Wasteland that aren't nuclear hellholes(Look at anywhere pre-Fallout 3). Why stick around a really shitty area, when there is literally nothing stopping you from packing your bags and moving elsewhere?

 

[MercenarySnake]

Then why are you trying to rationalize everything?

Cause both games sure as hell don't try to.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

@mithrap, they established the majority of these raiders work for the Pitt. So, no, they haven't been raiding for 200 years. There's no evidence in the game they have been.

They established the Pitt raiders are a separate faction. None of the raiders in the CW work for the Pitt. The only raiders that do anything related to the Pitt in the CW are the Evergreen Mills raiders, but only because they supposedly sell slaves to Paradise Falls, who then sell them to the Pitt.

You're telling me that the raiders dressed in old mattresses and car tires, hopped up to the eyeballs on all manner of drugs, who attack anyone on sight, hang around all manner of crappy locations, somehow work for the Pitt? In what capacity? What do they do for Ashur?

EDIT:

So, no, they haven't been raiding for 200 years.

The Pitt and Ashur have been around for 200 years?

 

[CT Phipps]

Doesn't seem to be a problem. They only have dirty clothes.

I'd like to know the rationale really for the weird "they're not really poor, they have enough water and food to survive" thing. Life is clearly a constant struggle for people in the Capital Wasteland and they have signs it is because they've only managed to build a small number of subsistence communities.

So, which is it?

Do they have an easy life because they can survive in the CW or do they suck because they haven't been able to build anything more than bare survival?

They established the Pitt raiders are a separate faction. None of the raiders in the CW work for the Pitt. The only raiders that do anything related to the Pitt in the CW are the Evergreen Mills raiders, but only because they supposedly sell slaves to Paradise Falls, who then sell them to the Pitt.

You're telling me that the raiders dressed in old mattresses and car tires, hopped up to the eyeballs on all manner of drugs, who attack anyone on sight, hang around all manner of crappy locations, somehow work for the Pitt? In what capacity? What do they do for Ashur?

Ashur's organization works as a backer for the Raiders in the Capital Wasteland. He provides as much ammunition as they need and other material support in exchange for them providing the raw materials to keep his ill-advised scheme to rebuild Pittsburgh going. He's, effectively, running a really shitty version of Caesar's Empire.

He recruits whoever proves themselves to be badass (through the Pitt or people recruited from the Wasteland who are already raiders) and then sends them out to steal as much as possible while buying Slaves kidnapped for his factories. We know he's working with the CW's Raiders and Paradise Falls because we fight his agents right above Paradise Falls. Is it a ridiculously long journey to do that sort of raiding? Maybe but they have a trainline to transfer directly to it.

The fact they're an undisciplined gang of murderous psychos doesn't mean anything as Ashur has bigger problems than HOW they get the supplies they need--they just need to get the supplies he needs. It does, however, explain why there's so many damned raiders, though. It's an army--just a army of thieves and whores.

As for why 200 years, there doesn't have to be as many Raiders as there are now in the Capital Wasteland. There just has to be as many as there are now. Which Ashur explains as he's recruiting Raiders from his own slaves and the raider gangs he's recruited and Paradise falls.

Note Paradise Falls IS old and has been providing slaves for at least a number of decades since Daring Dashwood dealt with an army capable of leveling an entire town.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

I'd like to know the rationale really for the weird "they're not really poor, they have enough water and food to survive" thing. Life is clearly a constant struggle for people in the Capital Wasteland and they have signs it is because they've only managed to build a small number of subsistence communities.

So, which is it?

Do they have an easy life because they can survive in the CW or do they suck because they haven't been able to build anything more than bare survival?

Why exatly are there not more people living in real towns like Rivet City or Megaton? Or just living in the DC ruins with actually well barricaded and armed guards (like, maybe THE TALON COMPANY). There's no thing saying "they can't actually settle and make a good living".
Hell, dare I say that in Fo4 there's a better excuse for that.

"It's all crappy and radiated" doesn't excuse for there to not be even shantytowns.

 

[Risewild]

Bethesda has always been upfront about that but I thought it was obvious. Otherwise, Morrowind would have like a couple of hundred people.

I still never read anything about that from official sources, that is why I would like a link or article or something so I could read for myself.

 

[CT Phipps]

Okay, will do. In the meantime, we have this:

 

[Risewild]

Ashur's organization works as a backer for the Raiders in the Capital Wasteland.

We already had this discussion in a different thread before. ashur's does not trade with Raiders, it trades with Slavers. They are different factions.

He recruits whoever proves themselves to be badass (through the Pitt or people recruited from the Wasteland who are already raiders) and then sends them out to steal as much as possible while buying Slaves kidnapped for his factories.

Never in the game it says he sends his troops to steal, we never see a raid party coming or going, we never have anyone saying they are raiding the capital wasteland. We have one guy saying that getting shot in a raid will kill you but he never says they are raiding. He might have raided before joining Ashur's army but not anymore, for all we know.
Ashur is not an evil person and he doesn't like killing for no reason, he even punishes his troops very harshly if they kill or harm his workers too much. He want's to rebuild the Pitt after finding the cure for the mutations and have an industrial paradise so people won't need to be slaves anymore and get work of their own free will and reap the bounties of industrialization. He wants to make a nice place to live for future generations.
You always say stuff like he sends his army to raid and kill and plunder but by talking to him we know he would never do that.

EDIT: A picture made by some random guy is hardly an official source.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

Okay, will do. In the meantime, we have this:

Not that hard when you shrink down or enlarge regions, all accounting cells, becouse yes, they are using the same engine since TESIII.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Ashur's organization works as a backer for the Raiders in the Capital Wasteland. He provides as much ammunition as they need and other material support in exchange for them providing the raw materials to keep his ill-advised scheme to rebuild Pittsburgh going. He's, effectively, running a really shitty version of Caesar's Empire.

According to what? You really think gangs of roving lunatics are able to provide the Pitt with enough raw materials regularly to keep his empire going? And if he's giving them ammunition, why is he giving them shit guns? The ammo the Pitt makes would be more valuable to the Pitt raiders, so I seriously doubt they'd take the time to somehow transport mass amounts of ammo (IIRC we have no indication the Pitt can make guns, they're only confirmed to have an ammo press) to the CW and somehow give them to raiders who would most likely just kill them anway.

Also, why would CW raiders give a fuck what Ashur wants? They've been doing their own thing anyway. Even if they did get guns from Ashur, nothing says they'd keep their word.

He recruits whoever proves themselves to be badass (through the Pitt or people recruited from the Wasteland who are already raiders) and then sends them out to steal as much as possible while buying Slaves kidnapped for his factories. We know he's working with the CW's Raiders and Paradise Falls because we fight his agents right above Paradise Falls. Is it a ridiculously long journey to do that sort of raiding? Maybe but they have a trainline to transfer directly to it.

As Risewild has said, we've had this conversation before. There's the one line to the Pitt with a handcar that can fit two people standing and maybe a couple more sitting. There's no room for them AND cargo nor a large number of people.

We know Ashur works with Paradise Falls because the slaver Ramsey "Hey. Are you the guy from The Pitt?" Nothing about the raiders. The raider hit squad after Wernher are clearly from the Pitt and are not CW raiders.

The fact they're an undisciplined gang of murderous psychos doesn't mean anything as Ashur has bigger problems than HOW they get the supplies they need--they just need to get the supplies he needs. It does, however, explain why there's so many damned raiders, though. It's an army--just a army of thieves and whores.

How does Ashur keep in contact with all these raiders? When do they know when to meet the Pitt guys? How do they transport the supplies back? What could they scrounge that Ashur would find useful? Why would Ashur give all the guns the Pitt army could use to mass numbers of trigger-happy, kill on sight psychos?

EDIT: The CW raiders just wouldn't be reliable. The logistics would be a nightmare and Ashur would lose more than he gained.

 

[CT Phipps]

We already had this discussion in a different thread before. ashur's does not trade with Raiders, it trades with Slavers. They are different factions.

Yeah, Ashur has a massive army of raiders he supplies and we know he operates with Slavers in Paradise Falls but apparently it's not the same band of Raiders we see in the CW because reasons. I remain unconvinced.

Never in the game it says he sends his troops to steal, we never see a raid party coming or going, we never have anyone saying they are raiding the capital wasteland. We have one guy saying that getting shot in a raid will kill you but he never says they are raiding. He might have raided before joining Ashur's army but not anymore, for all we know.

Ashur has Raiders in his service and he says he was wounded on a raid. I think Occam's Razor is the best to choose here. Also, the context of the conversation is joining Ashur's army where he says the slaves have it "easy" compared to them. Why would he say that if his job isn't to be in danger regularly?

Ashur is not an evil person and he doesn't like killing for no reason, he even punishes his troops very harshly if they kill or harm his workers too much. He want's to rebuild the Pitt after finding the cure for the mutations and have an industrial paradise so people won't need to be slaves anymore and get work of their own free will and reap the bounties of industrialization. He wants to make a nice place to live for future generations.
You always say stuff like he sends his army to raid and kill and plunder but by talking to him we know he would never do that.

Ashur is a man motivated by a vision, much like Caesar. He wants to build a city from the ashes and is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that dream. He hates the Brotherhood of Steel for not doing more to rebuild the world but the actions he takes are deplorable. I think that makes him an interesting character even if what he's doing is abominable.

Presumably, he would stop raiding once he had has a sustainable city with resources to feed his people as well as an immunity to the toxic river. But yes, the Raiders have actual food-food because they raid while the slaves are forced to eat a combination of noodles and Trog flesh.

 

[CT Phipps]

According to what? You really think gangs of roving lunatics are able to provide the Pitt with enough raw materials regularly to keep his empire going? And if he's giving them ammunition, why is he giving them shit guns? The ammo the Pitt makes would be more valuable to the Pitt raiders, so I seriously doubt they'd take the time to somehow transport mass amounts of ammo (IIRC we have no indication the Pitt can make guns, they're only confirmed to have an ammo press) to the CW and somehow give them to raiders who would most likely just kill them anway.

You're treating the Raiders as if their treatment of the Lone Wanderer is the beginning and end of their behavior.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Jericho_(character)

The Raiders in the Capital Wasteland are ordinary human beings, not insane or deranged despite theories about them being the descendants of Vault dwellers. Jericho is a former Raider and returns to the lifestyle if he joins an Evil Lone Wanderer. After all, you wander around the Wasteland murdering people for loot, don't you?

I also speculate the Pitt Raiders are the same Raiders as the Raiders in Evergreen Mills and other locations with most of them recruited by it.

Also, why would CW raiders give a fuck what Ashur wants? They've been doing their own thing anyway. Even if they did get guns from Ashur, nothing says they'd keep their word.

We don't know the history of the Raiders in the Capital Wasteland. It may be they may have been much more modest in their efforts before they had an employer trying to populate and feed a city.

As Risewild has said, we've had this conversation before. There's the one line to the Pitt with a handcar that can fit two people standing and maybe a couple more sitting. There's no room for them AND cargo nor a large number of people.

The handcar doesn't have to be the only transport to and from the Pitt. It's possible they may have caravans from it and HAVE TO if they're transporting literally HUNDREDS of slaves there.

We know Ashur works with Paradise Falls because the slaver Ramsey "Hey. Are you the guy from The Pitt?" Nothing about the raiders. The raider hit squad after Wernher are clearly from the Pitt and are not CW raiders.

I don't see why they can't be both. No reason not for them to be since they dress and act the same.

How does Ashur keep in contact with all these raiders? When do they know when to meet the Pitt guys? How do they transport the supplies back? What could they scrounge that Ashur would find useful? Why would Ashur give all the guns the Pitt army could use to mass numbers of trigger-happy, kill on sight psychos?

EDIT: The CW raiders just wouldn't be reliable. The logistics would be a nightmare and Ashur would lose more than he gained.

None of these are particularly hard questions to answer. The thing to remember if Ashur is employing the Capital Wasteland Raiders that their looting and murdering is WORKING as the Pitt is functional with slaves, food, and soldiers. He'd not be the first warlord to have a stable base (The Pitt) and his men running wild outside.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

You're treating the Raiders as if their treatment of the Lone Wanderer is the beginning and end of their behavior.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Jericho_(character)

The Raiders in the Capital Wasteland are ordinary human beings, not insane or deranged despite theories about them being the descendants of Vault dwellers. Jericho is a former Raider and returns to the lifestyle if he joins an Evil Lone Wanderer. After all, you wander around the Wasteland murdering people for loot, don't you?

I also speculate the Pitt Raiders are the same Raiders as the Raiders in Evergreen Mills and other locations with most of them recruited by it.

-Aaand now you're contradicting yourself. What happened to the "insane cannibals" from around two pages ago, exactly?

 

[Prone Squanderer]

You're treating the Raiders as if their treatment of the Lone Wanderer is the beginning and end of their behavior.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Jericho_(character)

The Raiders in the Capital Wasteland are ordinary human beings, not insane or deranged

Yeah. Hanging up dismembered corpses and wearing outfits sporting severed hands, not to mention having a reputation for being absolutely murderous is completely ordinary and not at all insane or deranged.

The game itself goes against what you just said with its loading screens.

Raiders take whatever they want, whenever they want, and their favorite pastimes are torture and murder.

I also speculate the Pitt Raiders are the same Raiders as the Raiders in Evergreen Mills and other locations with most of them recruited by it.

Speculate all you like, they're not.

We don't know the history of the Raiders in the Capital Wasteland. It may be they may have been much more modest in their efforts before they had an employer trying to populate and feed a city.

Modest in their effo-ok I'm moving on to the next bit.

The handcar doesn't have to be the only transport to and from the Pitt. It's possible they may have caravans from it and HAVE TO if they're transporting literally HUNDREDS of slaves there.

True it doesn't have to be the only transport. But what else? Brahmin? Unlikely since raiders don't have Brahmin nor the necessary supplies or skills to care for them. A huge march all the way there? Maybe but I doubt it.

I don't see why they can't be both. No reason not for them to be since they dress and act the same.

They don't dress and act the same. The hit squad Pitt raiders have better armour, not the rags the CW ones have. The Pitt raiders in general have better outfits, are more disciplined and don't shoot everyone on sight.

None of these are particularly hard questions to answer. The thing to remember if Ashur is employing the Capital Wasteland Raiders that their looting and murdering is WORKING as the Pitt is functional with slaves, food, and soldiers. He'd not be the first warlord to have a stable base (The Pitt) and his men running wild outside.

Yet you haven't answered them. Evergreen Mills might be a location that deals with Pitt raiders, but there's no way I can believe that all the others somehow work with/for the Pitt by murdering anyone they come across and somehow manage to make a living off it.

Why's it so hard to just accept that Bethesda made the raiders to be nothing more than generic post-apocalyptic bad guys? I don't see how you can even come to the conclusion that all these violent, no character gangs work for an organised group like the Pitt.

 

[Cobra Commander]

I think 4 is a disaster.

F3 is kind cool. I really like Point Lookout (of course, disregarding the not-so-interesting story and THE FUCKING BULLET SPONGES ENEMYS. BGS needs to stop doint this, for God's sake).