Censorship? There is no censorship!

[Tagaziel]

Nope. No one's critiqueing characters because they are gay, or any kind of sexuality, or diversity. This is just not true. I know you guys keep repeating it, but it is completely false.

You wanted me to point out how you fail to understand the points raised. This is the perfect example. Sander did not write that people are criticizing (by the way, that's the verb you were looking for) are characters because they belong to a minority. Neither did I.

We wrote that people hold characters to different standards depending on whether they're the Default Character (white, straight, male or the obligatory love interest) or deviate from that archetype:

straight white dudes are "allowed" to just be shittily written, but when a character deviates from that and is still shittily written, suddenly it's tokenism or shoehorning or whatever the fuck bullshit instead of just more bad writing.

The point was that people like TB force double standards on games. Anything that's not white, straight, and male (or the mandatory female love interest, because the world owes you women) must be well written or it's tokenism. It's this insane double standard that perpetuates the mandatory quotas of Default Character (white, straight, male) game appearances.

You're responding to what you imagine we're saying, not what we actually say. That's why you're being called ignorant. That's why you are being told that you do not understand the points being raised.

 

[Akratus]

Nope. No one's critiqueing characters because they are gay, or any kind of sexuality, or diversity. This is just not true. I know you guys keep repeating it, but it is completely false.

Correct. - complaining about their gayness/blackness/femaleness/whateverness

Yes, but no?

But do you understand why people criticize arbitrary diversity like this? Because it's seen as a good thing. It's seen as though it improves the game. It stands in the way of actual good writing. There's actually people out there who think: "Games nowadays are almost good enough, we just need to add more diversity, and then we're ok." When instead games have such a fuckhuge mountain to climb it's not even funny. Borderlands would be a shitty, skinner box-ish shooter whether that one guy was bi and this one was gay or not. Pretending that anything is mproved by arbitrary inclusion is detrimental.

---

https://archive.today/nbTBL#selection-1317.0-1317.1

Someone tries to get this lady fired, because she replied to @freebsdgirl one too many times.

 

[Sander]

Yes, I can understand that people criticize diversity. Because when they encounter diversity in games, they see that as an addition to a product. As something added on, rather than something that is simply a part of the game, and a part of humanity as a whole. So when they encounter something that's wrong with that character, or with that game, they tend to criticize the game and character based on that diversity, rather than based on what's actually wrong with it. BioWare's shitty writing isn't shitty because they try to be diverse, it's shitty because it's shitty writing.

There's actually people out there who think: "Games nowadays are almost good enough, we just need to add more diversity, and then we're ok."

There are also lots of people who think games are great and nothing needs to change. So? I've never seen anyone argue that we need diversity instead of better writing, or instead of better games, or instead of whatever. It's never treated as a replacement for other improvements. But having humanity as a whole reflected in the sum of our cultural products (not every single one, but the group as a whole) is inherently better than not having that.

 

[Tagaziel]

But do you understand why people criticize arbitrary diversity like this? Because it's seen as a good thing. It's seen as though it improves the game. It stands in the way of actual good writing. There's actually people out there who think: "Games nowadays are almost good enough, we just need to add more diversity, and then we're ok." When instead games have such a fuckhuge mountain to climb it's not even funny. Borderlands would be a shitty, skinner box-ish shooter whether that one guy was bi and this one was gay or not. Pretending that anything is mproved by arbitrary inclusion is detrimental.

If anything is arbitrary, it's the continued focus on Default Characters as the main character template, not a diverse cast of characters. Explain how it stands in the way of actual writing, without the idiotic claim that authors are somehow forced to include more diverse characters.

 

[Akratus]

Because some people think it IS actual writing. All the time spent talking about diversity could be spent on talking about how to actually write realistic characters. Obviously this is too hard for the triple a gaming industry, and the social justice indie clique doubly so. Seems to me social justice is a way to get games in a spotlight by having it replace the actual merit of the game. Like the lesbian couple in the last of us. It's a marketing gimmick.

 

[TheWesDude]

well it really is attempts at censorship and the hugbox and the echo chamber.

Nope. No one's advocating bans on games, or any kind of content, or censorship. This is just not true. I know you guys keep repeating it, but it is completely false.

Also your other post was neat, but anecdotal evidence from your mom don't mean much. Big Boss be correct, even if he was being so mockingly.

really sander? tell that to the austrailians who shop at target and kmart and want to pick up a copy of GTA 5.

tell them nobody is advocating bans on games.


really? thats the thing, YOU provided the links. multiple ones. how many of those included those 3 criteria in their breakdowns? i can tell you how many included all 3. because of my moms experience in looking at these all the time, its what i look for.

so sander, even in that GS study, ill tell you how it is that women and minorities get more raises and promotions, yet end up making less money.

just to refresh:
all women made 2.9% less than white men yet received more promotions and raises
all minorities made 5.1% less than white men yet received more promotions and raises

raises/promotions are based on job experience. not performance, experience. you are eligible for pay raises ( step increases ) based on hitting hourly numbers. every 6 months you are eligible for step increases. OPM defines 6 months as 1040 hours worked ( 40 hours a week, multiplied by 26 because there are 52 weeks a year ). now they do figure in vacation and holiday for 900 hours. so every 900 hours you are eligible.

when they say women and minorities receive more raises and promotions, its based on that 900 number, not 6 calendar months. that is how their numbers show what they show.

3 year period would theoretically include 6 of these 900 hour periods. what ACTUALLY happens is women sees 5, and minorities see 4-5, whereas the iconic white male hits 7 or 8 in the same 3 year period. what happens is because of score bias they take all people eligible and divvy up the available step increases among those eligible, and women and minorities get bonuses to their score. that results in them receiving a higher percentage of step increases and promotions even when you look at total numbers, but white men ending up with more pay over time.

not racism. not sexism. its pure numbers. its pure numbers that FAVORs women and minorities. they have been doing this for 15-20 years, they have gotten very good at hiding it.

i said it before, ill say it again. go ahead, continue to cry sexism, racism, and misogyny.

this will be my response:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixr5GSUWwEw

 

[Sander]

Because some people think it IS actual writing. All the time spent talking about diversity could be spent on talking about how to actually write realistic characters. Obviously this is too hard for the triple a gaming industry, and the social justice indie clique doubly so.

These are not mutually exclusive things. Learning to stretch yourself and write beyond the standard viewpoint is part of becoming a better writer. Learning to reflect more stories than the ones that are being told everywhere is, too. I would even argue that writing societies that include some form of an "other" is absolutely necessary, because we have never had a society that hasn't treated some aspect of itself as "other". But none of that is a replacement for good writing, and I doubt you'll find a single writer who thinks that.

This is a perfect example of that double standard, by the way: you're judging writers that add some diversity to games by different standards than writers who don't. The gaming industry is filled to the brim with shitty writing that doesn't include any diversity. But when a game includes diversity, the problem is suddenly the diversity instead of shitty writing in general.

Seems to me social justice is a way to get games in a spotlight by having it replace the actual merit of the game. Like the lesbian couple in the last of us. It's a marketing gimmick.

See? You can't even see a lesbian couple as anything but a "marketing gimmick". Why can't it just be a lesbian couple, like so many we have always had in societies? Why can't you just evaluate the story on its merits? Why can't you accept that stories that feature lesbian couples or other non-straight-white-dudes are perfectly valid choices, instead of seeing the inclusion of more aspects of humanity as "replacing the actual merit of the game"?

really sander? tell that to the austrailians who shop at target and kmart and want to pick up a copy of GTA 5.

They can buy the game elsewhere.

Also you keep citing numbers but never actually providing a source for those numbers. Given the fact that nearly every time I've actually tried to check numbers you've provided, they turned out to be bullshit, I'm just going to go ahead and not trust you. Also, just to note: time worked is also not context-free, and there are specific gendered, societal reasons why women may work less than men. Hint: sexism in the broad sense.

 

[Tagaziel]

Because some people think it IS actual writing. All the time spent talking about diversity could be spent on talking about how to actually write realistic characters. Obviously this is too hard for the triple a gaming industry, and the social justice indie clique doubly so. Seems to me social justice is a way to get games in a spotlight by having it replace the actual merit of the game. Like the lesbian couple in the last of us. It's a marketing gimmick.

Again with the imagined points. Nobody has been arguing that diversity makes characters better by default. Then you follow that with a non sequitur, as diversity is an issue separate from the quality of writing present in the games. You're basically arguing that diversity and good writing are mutually exclusive because... Uh... Because you say so, I guess? This claim is so bizarre it's hard to form a response. It's in the Not Even Wrong category.

Also, your claim about The Last of Us is a perfect example of the double standards. I assume you're referring to Ellie and Riley. Why is it a marketing gimmick? Because it's not the Default Straight Relationship that must be present in any AAA game? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound when you make this kind of statement?

 

[PlanHex]

Hex, do you actually read what is posted?

Did you listen to that podcast at all? Seriously. Did you take the soundbytes out of context because they were presented to you by the hatemob as 'bad' or did you actually sit down and listen to it? This is important.

Your rambling response is missing the point by a margin wide enough to contain the whole of our solar system.

And yet it's apparently still not as big as the huge hole where your brain is supposed to be.

The point was that people like TB force double standards on games. Anything that's not white, straight, and male (or the mandatory female love interest, because the world owes you women) must be well written or it's tokenism. It's this insane double standard that perpetuates the mandatory quotas of Default Character (white, straight, male) game appearances.

Or maybe it's just shitty Bioware writing. You know, the guys that have been doing shitty tokenism for fucking ever for no reason? The tards that make crappy animu characters time and time again yet somehow get away with it and have tards like you defending their shitty writing because... Wait, why are you defending them again?

I'm not sure why you're even bringing New Vegas up, because it's an example of diversity in action, where characters are treated on equal terms without pandering to the Default Character quota.

Because it's a good game with actual good writing? (unlike bioware games)

I'm curious as to which race and character you're referring to, because I don't recall any such instance in Bioware games.

"S-s-shepard senpai please bone me, i'm insecure and considered a child by my race of space aliens but don't worry i'm at least 1000 years old so no one will call you a paedo even though I'm acting like I'm 12."

 

[Sander]

Or maybe it's just shitty Bioware writing. You know, the guys that have been doing shitty tokenism for fucking ever for no reason? The tards that make crappy animu characters time and time again yet somehow get away with it and have tards like you defending their shitty writing because... Wait, why are you defending them again?

No one's defending the writing quality, here. Just pointing out that the writing isn't bad because of "tokenism". It's bad writing because it's bad writing. And that the accusation of "tokenism" is a double standard, because when there's a non-diverse character people just go "shitty writing" but when it's a "diverse" character, the shitty writing is somehow interpreted to be the result of that diversity, rather than the same shitty writing you see everywhere else.

 

[Tagaziel]

Did you listen to that podcast at all? Seriously. Did you take the soundbytes out of context because they were presented to you by the hatemob as 'bad' or did you actually sit down and listen to it? This is important.

I did listen to it and I agree with the transcript. TB is clueless.

And yet it's apparently still not as big as the huge hole where your brain is supposed to be.

You're not even trying, are you?

Or maybe it's just shitty Bioware writing. You know, the guys that have been doing shitty tokenism for fucking ever for no reason? The tards that make crappy animu characters time and time again yet somehow get away with it and have tards like you defending their shitty writing because... Wait, why are you defending them again?


Because it's a good game with actual good writing? (unlike bioware games)

Yes, Bioware has generally poor writers. Your point? I'm not sure how it's related to diversity in games or why Bioware games having Bioware writing is somehow proof of how having a diverse cast is bad.

"S-s-shepard senpai please bone me, i'm insecure and considered a child by my race of space aliens but don't worry i'm at least 1000 years old so no one will call you a paedo even though I'm acting like I'm 12."

Nope, not ringing any bells. How about you just name the character and the race?

 

[PlanHex]

Or maybe it's just shitty Bioware writing. You know, the guys that have been doing shitty tokenism for fucking ever for no reason? The tards that make crappy animu characters time and time again yet somehow get away with it and have tards like you defending their shitty writing because... Wait, why are you defending them again?

No one's defending the writing quality, here. Just pointing out that the writing isn't bad because of "tokenism". It's bad writing because it's bad writing. And that the accusation of "tokenism" is a double standard, because when there's a non-diverse character people just go "shitty writing" but when it's a "diverse" character, the shitty writing is somehow interpreted to be the result of that diversity, rather than the same shitty writing you see everywhere else.

That wasn't what they said at all though. They pointed out that it was shitty because it was constantly pointing out how super duper inclusive it was.
They never said it was bad for being inclusive, they said it was bad because they wanted to shove the sentiment of "LOOK AT HOW INCLUSIVE WE ARE" down your throat. That's a pretty big difference you're not getting.
Shit like that specifically makes the writing bad as a result of incessant masturbatory inclusiveness, but pointing out that it's bad does not contain a value judgement on neither the rest of the writing nor whether or not inclusiveness is bad in general.

Or maybe it's just shitty Bioware writing. You know, the guys that have been doing shitty tokenism for fucking ever for no reason? The tards that make crappy animu characters time and time again yet somehow get away with it and have tards like you defending their shitty writing because... Wait, why are you defending them again?


Because it's a good game with actual good writing? (unlike bioware games)

Yes, Bioware has generally poor writers. Your point? I'm not sure how it's related to diversity in games or why Bioware games having Bioware writing is somehow proof of how having a diverse cast is bad.

How the fuck does that even follow. What the fuck are you even talking about?
pls turn brain on
even

"S-s-shepard senpai please bone me, i'm insecure and considered a child by my race of space aliens but don't worry i'm at least 1000 years old so no one will call you a paedo even though I'm acting like I'm 12."

Nope, not ringing any bells. How about you just name the character and the race?

That sentence is specifically directed at Liara. Although, in retrospect I should probably have made more broad, since the general behaviour applies to so many Bioware characters anyway.

 

[TheWesDude]

Also you keep citing numbers but never actually providing a source for those numbers. Given the fact that nearly every time I've actually tried to check numbers you've provided, they turned out to be bullshit, I'm just going to go ahead and not trust you. Also, just to note: time worked is also not context-free, and there are specific gendered, societal reasons why women may work less than men. Hint: sexism in the broad sense.

because i keep using your numbers. which consistently agree with the numbers i say. but its ok, i know you cannot ever admit i am right because it would be admitting you have been wrong the whole time.

and your constant cries of sexism is why i shall consider you an idiot.

i would much rather trust someone with over 20 years of experience looking at pay/wage studies and saying it is not based on racism/sexism than someone on the internet who does not work in HR or a related field saying it is.

who would be considered an "expert" on wages/pay and causes for wage gaps?
my mom: worked in a command accounting office for 3 of her 23.5 years and in an HR capacity for the last 20.5 years for the entire Army
sander: internet forum warrior with 0 years of experience in HR related fields in the US
tagz: internet forum warrior with 0 years of experience in HR related fields in the US


and now for something related:

https://twitter.com/lkesten/status/541091259159691264

Lou Kesten
@lkesten
Thank goodness 'Dragon Age' won. If 'Bayonetta 2' was named game of the year, I would've had to quit.

such diversity! such inclusiveness!

if a game featuring a female protagonist designed by a woman had won GOTY, he would have quit.

he should quit anyway, he obviously does NOT support women in gaming.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/lou-kesten/30/15b/2b3

surprise surprise, and old white guy in gaming press.

https://twitter.com/lkesten/status/537233078197170177

cites "hit me baby one more time", a song about abusing women.

https://twitter.com/lkesten/status/522246981281132544

confirmed anti-gamergater

why do you anti-gamergate people hate women so much?

(patiently waits for the scotsman reply)

 

[Tagaziel]

That wasn't what they said at all though. They pointed out that it was shitty because it was constantly pointing out how super duper inclusive it was.
They never said it was bad for being inclusive, they said it was bad because they wanted to shove the sentiment of "LOOK AT HOW INCLUSIVE WE ARE" down your throat. That's a pretty big difference you're not getting.
Shit like that specifically makes the writing bad as a result of incessant masturbatory inclusiveness, but pointing out that it's bad does not contain a value judgement on neither the rest of the writing nor whether or not inclusiveness is bad in general.

How the fuck does that even follow. What the fuck are you even talking about?
pls turn brain on
even

If it's irrelevant to the subject of diversity in games, then why do you keep bringing this up?

That sentence is specifically directed at Liara. Although, in retrospect I should probably have made more broad, since the general behaviour applies to so many Bioware characters anyway.

Right. Never got that impression myself.

 

[PlanHex]

If it's irrelevant to the subject of diversity in games, then why do you keep bringing this up?

Right, because I'm the one that posted the link berating TB for shit he didn't say and started this discussion.


edit:
Unrelated, but am watching the LoL tourno at IEM San Jose and this thing seems to play at every ad-break:

The dead walk the earth, abandon all hope!

 

[Sander]

That wasn't what they said at all though. They pointed out that it was shitty because it was constantly pointing out how super duper inclusive it was.
They never said it was bad for being inclusive, they said it was bad because they wanted to shove the sentiment of "LOOK AT HOW INCLUSIVE WE ARE" down your throat. That's a pretty big difference you're not getting.
Shit like that specifically makes the writing bad as a result of incessant masturbatory inclusiveness, but pointing out that it's bad does not contain a value judgement on neither the rest of the writing nor whether or not inclusiveness is bad in general.

Kind of, yes. In the sense that he certainly did that, which is fine -- calling out bad writing as bad writing is good. I haven't played Inquisition so I can't really say whether or not their writing in that way is bad -- it may very well be that he's just extra sensitive to it. But that's more taste than anything else.

The problem is that that's not the only thing he did. Specifically, this is still bad in context:
"I love the fact that EA games in general do a good job of representation, that's fine. That's great, and I hope more companies do that,when it's appropriate to the story. Don't just shoehorn diversity in for diversity's sake. Do it because you believe in it and because you can write good characters that are diverse. Like, use that diversity. Don't make it token."

That's what I reacted to. Because that -- the "appropriate to the story" the "only do it if you can write good characters" the "don't make it token" -- those specific criticism represent a double standard you see all the time. And whether or not he specifically means them that way (and I think he does), a lot of people do mean them that way. Including Akratus up there. And that's genuinely a problem, because it's a double standard that leads to less-diverse games.

because i keep using your numbers.

No you don't. None of that productivity stuff you cited are "my numbers". You just state it as fact. Okay. Enjoy. I'm not buying anything you claim as fact, because every time in the history of this forum you've made a concrete claim that I have checked, your numbers turned out to be bullshit. Every time.

why do you anti-gamergate people hate women so much?

(patiently waits for the scotsman reply)

This framing is so insane there's no way anyone would believe it. Right?

 

[SnapSlav]

really sander? tell that to the austrailians who shop at target and kmart and want to pick up a copy of GTA 5.

They can buy the game elsewhere.

Oh, you're totally right. They CAN order the game online and have it shipped to them. There are ways for them to circumvent the law in their country and obtain the game that way. There are ways, and this means it's not banned! I guess that means prohibition wasn't a ban on alcohol for 13 years because Americans had many ways to obtain it illegally? I guess this means there IS no War on Drugs because meth, cocaine, and heroin are far cheaper and more plentiful AND profitable while being readily available to consumers ready to sidestep the law?

Seriously, I was just browsing the latest absurdities to be posted in this topic, and that comment just made me stop. It literally stopped my brain. I was so shocked by the utter stupidity and ignorance of that suggestion. I would expect this line of thinking, however, from someone who thinks deletion of several months' worth of discussion just to spite certain key contributors does not constitute "censorship", and who couldn't grasp that a wrong is not forgiven by a right, but somehow that notion still found its way into a blind spot in my mind's eye.

Somehow it's okay for censorship and bans and exclusivity to divide and damage, but heaven forbid a PERCEIVED return of elitism and classism from returning to the fold, so we gotta mandate ourselves some diversity to stop it!

The words "fucking" and "nitwit" repeatedly storm their ways into my mind for some reason. Go figure.

 

[Hassknecht]

It's not a law that buyers have to circumvent. It's just Target et al. not selling a certain game. A company decision, not a ban.
Other stores are completely free to sell it, people can import it or buy it online, in a perfectly legal way.

 

[Tagaziel]

Right, because I'm the one that posted the link berating TB for shit he didn't say and started this discussion.

Yes, he did. He specifically said that diversity should only be attempted if it's appropriate to the story, a different take on the usual "only if it's well written" bullshit. Default Characters do not have to be "appropriate to the story" or "well written" to be included. Why demand that from non-Default characters?

There are ways for them to circumvent the law in their country and obtain the game that way.

I'm not sure you noticed, amid furious typing and self-righteous anger, that it wasn't the government of Australia that banned GTA V. Two stores refused to carry it. It does not constitute censorship in any sense of the word. The game is still officially, legally available for purchase from other retailers across Australia and online through PSN and pretty soon Steam.

How about you do some research, eh?

 

[Akratus]

why Bioware games having Bioware writing is somehow proof of how having a diverse cast is bad.

You're responding to what you imagine we're saying, not what we actually say. That's why you're being called ignorant. That's why you are being told that you do not understand the points being raised.

I'm done. I'm so fucking done. You can't just argue for strawmen, faulty logic and ignorance whilst violently blowing a metric shitton of strawmen, and misunderstanding out of every orifice. This is a discussion where both sides are on different planes of reality. Different dimensions of logic. If you think that this one discrepancy is the reason I'm making this post it's merely proof of what I'm saying here. If I continue any longer I'm going to have migraines again and none of this pointless retardation is worth trying to abate for that shit.

Congratulations, Tagz and Sander. You've made me offended for the very first time in my life. Offended by your willful ignorance facilitated obtuseness.