Censorship? There is no censorship!

[Walpknut]

Well, through necromancy they actually revived the old thread about people refusing to argue and instead just yell at one another and calling each other bigots. I wonder how long it will take for the thread to get another name change. I am betting on "Opinion Nazis want to put women and minorities in concentration camps".

 

[TheWesDude]

One of your problems is that you keep seeing sexism as a blame game, rather than a widespread societal issue. You want to blame women, and somehow show that men or specific companies are not to blame for unequal pay. I don't really care who's to blame: I'm just seeing a societal system that produces fundamental inequalities through a variety of factors. And yes, those factors include women's choices -- as I keep saying, though, those choices are not made in a vacuum. Work/life-balance is more important to women than men specifically because of how our society is set up. Similarly, their choice not to enter certain male-dominated professions is heavily influenced by the culture at large, and the work culture in those industries that is often hostile to women. I've given specific examples of these things. Blaming women is much too simplistic for my tastes, and going "yeah well that's just their choice" is a cop-out, to me.

compare the following jobs:

Company A:
wants a system admin who works 70 hours a week, on call 24/7. full medical/dental, 2 weeks vacation every year, 1 week sick.
salaried at 80k first 2 years going to 95k after that.

Company B:
wants a system admin who works 9-4 M-F, no on-call. sponsors 75% of medical/dental, 3 weeks vacation and 1 week sick leave a year.
salaried at 60k first 2 years going to 65k after that.

show those 2 above positions equally qualified 100 men and 100 women and tell them they can only apply to one of those jobs. if women as a majority prefer B to A, and men prefer A to B, your stance is that because it was not evenly split, it is inherent societal/cultural sexism that men want A and women want B rather than vice versa.

now lets say that 100 men took A and 100 women took B, any wage/pay gap study for the first 2 years would find men were making 20k more than women, and after 2 years the men were making 30k more than the women.

my position is that there is no problem. the men made their choice, the women made their choice.

there are a myriad of reasons people have for taking jobs they take. hell, anyone talking about that "pay gap" in the difference between the companies would be doing so within a vacuum of individual choice. to even claim there is a problem you would have to ignore the difference between the 2 companies. the only way to actually have a meaningful pay gap is if there were 10 women working for company A and NOT getting the same deal the men got. same with 10 men at company B not getting the same deal the women got. THAT would be a TRUE wage/pay gap.

but that is not what ANY of the studies you have linked shows. the studies you link are ones that compare the pay from company A to company B in the vacuum of all the other factors, and then claim there is a GENDER pay gap when the pay difference is not based on GENDER but rather choices they make as individuals. people who think that a pay gap is a problem and think that something needs to be done are not addressing that the pay gap represents different priorities, but that there is a problem with the men because they make so much more, company A for paying so much more, or else company B for paying so little.

again, my point is that as long as men and women in company A are getting the same deal, and the men and women in company B are getting the same deal, then there is no pay gap.


that is what i have been trying to get across.

 

[Akratus]

Are you saying that a journalist is no different from a consumer? That's not true at all.

No, but a journalist exists by virtue of his audience, not the other way around. 1fps-warlock continues that odd framing where somehow, Rock Paper Shotgun is creating this audience that doesn't play games, but somehow manages to force their views on the gaming industry because the people who "just play games" aren't organized. Those people still buy games, right? That's the only power RPS has: through people who buy games. It's the same damn power everyone else has.

No it's not their only power. RPS' power is through networking, the platform of their readership ads and deals with ad programs, publishers etc. It seems to me you're dismissing the idea that it is possible for a website to publish articles that spread an ideology that the majority of their viewers don't hold. It's entirely possible. It's just that most people simply ignore articles on say, the privilege of being caucasian, when they look up articles on games.

But you are correct I suppose. And that's exactly why these websites are now being criticized, have certain activities exposed, and see a decline in their reputation. And on top of that you see a lot of gamers commenting or tweeting to anyone linking Kotaku et al, that they won't visit said website. It's the consumer's opinion at work. You might say, it's a consumer revolt.

What sets RPS apart from a gamer is that they have an audience. But that audience isn't artificial. It's there because they like what RPS has to say. It consists of gamers. It is not separate from other people. There is one thing they can do that gamers can't do as easily, though: they can reach game developers and convince them of their point of view. But what's wrong with that?

There's obviously nothing wrong with that. But you cant exactly say that merely because a website holds a certain opinion, the majority of their audience has to agree.

 

[Akratus]

Here's an interesting article:
http://techraptor.net/content/female-gamers-react-feminist-frequencys-latest-video

And a nice infographic:

Spoiler

 

[Akratus]

Sander/Tagaziel, would you say you agree with this blog post?
https://egalitarianvideogamejerk.wo...ppeal-to-entitled-patriarchal-hypershitlords/

 

[Hassknecht]

Why would anyone agree with satire?

 

[Tagaziel]

Here's an interesting article:
http://techraptor.net/content/female-gamers-react-feminist-frequencys-latest-video

People disagree with Sarkeesian. That's fine. Your point?

snip

What a waste of my time. Zero sources provided for the largely wild allegations given.

Sander/Tagaziel, would you say you agree with this blog post?
https://egalitarianvideogamejerk.wo...ppeal-to-entitled-patriarchal-hypershitlords/

Why would I agree with something that's an obvious parody? A poorly written, shitty parody at that?

snip

You can believe whatever you want about yourself. Problem is, your declarations are at odds with your behavior. There's a reason I mostly ignore you: Nothing you say holds any value for me, no matter how many pretty paragraphs you write using all the difficult words you can find in a dictionary.

 

[Akratus]

Why would anyone agree with satire?

 

[Surf Solar]

Why would anyone agree with satire?

The funny thing is that you can never be sure these days if it's satire or dead serious with these people.

 

[Walpknut]

I once got linked to the most Kathy Bates on Misery swj article I have read, but the linker shared as if it was a good article. A girl complaining about Ricky Grevais making fat jokes and not liking the political correctness stuff everybody seems to want to ram down people's throats. The article was about how Ricky Grevais took Ricky Grevais away from her.... pretty creepy stuff.

 

[Tagaziel]

The funny thing is that you can never be sure these days if it's satire or dead serious with these people.

You can. About the time when you stop pretending people disagreeing with you and campaigning for diversity are some monolithic hive mind.

 

[Sander]

I once got linked to the most Kathy Bates on Misery swj article I have read, but the linker shared as if it was a good article. A girl complaining about Ricky Grevais making fat jokes and not liking the political correctness stuff everybody seems to want to ram down people's throats. The article was about how Ricky Grevais took Ricky Grevais away from her.... pretty creepy stuff.

I think you mean this article: http://jezebel.com/ricky-gervais-broke-my-heart-1630075731

Which mostly expresses disappointment that the person that wrote so many things that she loved and seemed to understand so many things she cared about, also turned out to be a total asshat. And that's creepy because?

And this is kind of part of the problem: there's no will to listen and consider what she's saying. You have to go into that piece wanting to find something wrong with it, wanting to dismiss it, to get out of it what you got out of it. It's probably the same reason why Surf Solar and Akratus apparently can't tell the difference between satire of social justice, and actual social justice. If you already think it's ridiculous, why wouldn't you think the ridiculous, satirical take was actually real?

No it's not their only power. RPS' power is through networking, the platform of their readership ads and deals with ad programs, publishers etc.

No, that's the other way around. RPS has no power over publishers through ad deals, publishers have powers over RPS through ad deals. And that's kind of an ethical problem on its own.

It seems to me you're dismissing the idea that it is possible for a website to publish articles that spread an ideology that the majority of their viewers don't hold. It's entirely possible. It's just that most people simply ignore articles on say, the privilege of being caucasian, when they look up articles on games.

But you are correct I suppose. And that's exactly why these websites are now being criticized, have certain activities exposed, and see a decline in their reputation. And on top of that you see a lot of gamers commenting or tweeting to anyone linking Kotaku et al, that they won't visit said website. It's the consumer's opinion at work. You might say, it's a consumer revolt.

Sure. People can go read whatever they want or don't want.

 

[TheWesDude]

No, that's the other way around. RPS has no power over publisher through ad deals, publishers have powers over RPS through ad deals. And that's kind of an ethical problem on its own.

not kind of an ethical problem, it is a huge ethical problem. it is one that has reared its head many times, and even caused the firing/termination/quitting of some game reviewers in the past.

and the problem is that the only way for a gaming media/press outlet to be truly independent from those developers/publishers is to not accept ad deals from them. hell, you dont even have to look any further than oblivion/fallout 3/skyrim. all bug ridden games, yet when you look at first print reviews they are all fawning over the game and giving them 90+ scores and barely mentioning bugs/logic/consistency issues. yet look at FNV and they all talk about them incessantly. they dont even really admit how problematical the bugs/issues are in major AAA titles until 1-3 years after their release.

 

[Akratus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNUmSRp7jj8#t=05m57s

Bill Burr's new special here is interesting, I think.

 

[TorontoReign]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...er-reaction-to-divisive-lucky-chloe-character


The developers responses to the complaints about the new character are pretty oblivious. There are a few angles to this story though. Some don't like the character because of the whole Lolita thing and the design of the character. Some don't like it because of gameplay reasons which I won't get into since it is irrelevant to this debate. As much as I hate to agree with Sander on something, the Japanese are really fucking creepy and sexist about these sorts of things sometimes. The whole underage fetish thing is really disturbing. I should add that I don't think the character is that bad, but I can see where the criticism comes from.

Discuss.


Edit: I mean his response to complaints is basically saying we don't get it because we are Americans or Westerners or something. Like any complaint towards a characters design must be due to some inferior brain capacity. When it really boils down to wanting a character that doesn't fulfill their weird underage schoolgirl fantasies. We have plenty of characters like that already. Not to mention I think her moveset is copied off someone else anyway.

 

[TheWesDude]

well you have to keep in mind, if it is meant to be a "fox" rather than a cat, it could be a reference to their "lucky fox" mythology. if it is actually supposed to be a cat reference, then it is a reference to the "iconic" symbol of femininity for japan.

both of which would be taken as americans trying to impose their cultural norms onto japan which quite a few japanese do not like. especially older japanese as they see the "culture creep" from their young generation doing it enough.

or in other words, cultural imperialism.

 

[TorontoReign]

well you have to keep in mind, if it is meant to be a "fox" rather than a cat, it could be a reference to their "lucky fox" mythology. if it is actually supposed to be a cat reference, then it is a reference to the "iconic" symbol of femininity for japan.

both of which would be taken as americans trying to impose their cultural norms onto japan which quite a few japanese do not like. especially older japanese as they see the "culture creep" from their young generation doing it enough.

or in other words, cultural imperialism.

I'm mainly more concerned with their inability to create decent characters that don't fit their stereotypes. No one is forcing them to change it, but if they want to actually sell the game over here, then they may want to consider designing good characters. His response to criticism of the design was fucking absurd. Not to mention the fact that the posters aren't necessarily American. It is increasingly becoming apparent that they don't know the Western audiences they are trying to appease. The Japanese aren't even supporting the consoles anymore. They are playing games on their cellphones. So if they want to just make their games appeal to Japanese dudes that like looking at little girls, then they should expect backlash. I've heard you specifically defend this Lolita thing in the past. I don't give a shit how deeply rooted it is in their culture. Wanting to fuck little girls is sick. They just now started frowning on that sort of thing as a country.

Edit: On top of the fact that she looks almost just like a new DOA5 character. Yeah. It is cultural. So bad they can't even notice it I guess.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=947059

This is the thread that Harada was reacting to.

 

[TheWesDude]

I'm mainly more concerned with their inability to create decent characters that don't fit their stereotypes.

have you played the character? how do you know that character is good or bad without playing them?

No one is forcing them to change it

force? no, you want them to change it (on their own) based on your values. and we could always turn this around thusly:

Who is forcing YOU to buy this game?

then they may want to consider designing good characters.

again, have you played the character in the game?

It is increasingly becoming apparent that they don't know the Western audiences they are trying to appease.

your mistake is thinking they are releasing it trying to appease you. maybe they realize that due to how many people "pirate" their games or buy them from japanese distributors that there is a global market for the games they create and are doing it for the same reason any company releases their products on the international market. more sales and more profit.

So if they want to just make their games appeal to Japanese dudes that like looking at little girls

so there are no girls that would enjoy playing this character at all? where is your data that they included this character NOT at the request of their female fans but rather their male fans?

I've heard you specifically defend this Lolita thing in the past.

only within the scope of me refusing to enforce american/western cultural imperialism. obviously you do not feel that imposing your culture on others is bad.


TLDR:

exactly what i said, american/western cultural imperialism

 

[Sander]

Cultural imperialism bad. On the other hand, sexualizing little girls also bad.

 

[TorontoReign]

Don't insult my intelligence. I've played Tekken. She uses Eddie's move set. I watched the videos. I have a feeling you didn't read the link, or even know what the complaints are about. You don't have to play the game to see it is a cloned move set. I never said I wanted them to change it because of my values, which frankly you don't know dick about. I think the character is a joke. There is literally an almost exact duplicate of that same character, minus the cat theme, in the new DOA5. It's unimaginative, boring, and I think it goes to show why Tekken has decreased in quality over the years. Some might have a Moe-fetish or think Tekken needs more scantily clad babes, but I think that should be reserved for games like DOA. I am a Tekken fan and this is a thread where I can express my dislike for the character. It's relevant. It's blatantly obvious that the majority of the fans of this character model are males. It's basically fan service. My wife likes slutty stuff as much as the next woman, and she thought the outfit was shit too. Anecdotal I know but I could care less. Even if it was created and marketed to females, it's still not a good design. Disregard any implied sexism and the character is still shit. Japan is notoriously stubborn in regards to not understanding Western audiences. This cultural imperialism garbage you threw out is just as retarded as the last time you said it too.

Even if you disregard all of that, the way he responded was juvenile at best. I understand cultural differences, but Japan doesn't live in a bubble. They ARE marketing this game to other audiences. It is foolish to disregard other cultures when making games that will be released in their country. I wonder why the Tekken series has been going down hill? Could it be because the developers still don't get the Western audiences? Could that be why games like Final Fantasy, that have increasingly focused on Otaku culture, are being shunned here in America in mass? Because they just don't fucking get it? Do I really care that much about the issue? Just enough to talk about it. Ultimately I don't like Tekken as much anymore, but I know I would like it if the characters weren't a joke. It's pretty bad when you can't tell a DOA character from a Tekken one.

Do I think the character should be changed or altered? No. They shouldn't be coerced into changing it. The design is done and set in place. It doesn't mean they shouldn't try to design some original characters for once. The past couple female characters they have created are pretty uninspired. It's embarrassing. I expect more from these people. When confronted with criticism Harada resorted to smartass comments further proving that he doesn't understand.

"Oh you don't like the character?"

"Stupid Americans..."

That is the second Japanese developer in recent memory that has basically had that attitude towards Western audiences. All I'm saying is don't be surprised when people don't buy your game since it doesn't appeal to your fan base anymore. Japanese developers are struggling to appeal to the Western market. They have admitted as much.