Censorship? There is no censorship!

[Tagaziel]

Well, many tribes did leave the hunting and warfare to the men and child-rearing and plant-growing to the women, which is all I was refering to. The value given to these roles is very much cultural of course, but it does seem like many cultures tended to send the men hunting and let the women care for the home.

Hass, is that everything you take out of my post? Note that women were empowered and a crucial part of the decision making process in many American nations, including direct involvement in peace negotiations, declaring war, leadership roles, as well as taking care of affairs considered the domain of men. A native American armorer, builder, farmer, trader could be a woman - imagine that in contemporary Europe. The point was and still is that gender roles are a cultural construct.

 

[BigBoss]

I'm half Lakota Sioux (half French). They have been using these traditional roles for a very long time, and neither sex saw it fit to attempt to change the order of things in their society.

Sioux women were in charge of the home. Besides cooking and cleaning, a Dakota or Lakota woman built her family's house and dragged the heavy posts with her whenever the tribe moved. Houses belonged to the women in the Sioux tribes. Men were hunters and warriors, responsible for feeding and defending their families. Usually only men became Sioux chiefs, but both genders took part in storytelling, artwork and music, and traditional medicine.

 

[Hassknecht]

Well, many tribes did leave the hunting and warfare to the men and child-rearing and plant-growing to the women, which is all I was refering to. The value given to these roles is very much cultural of course, but it does seem like many cultures tended to send the men hunting and let the women care for the home.

Hass, is that everything you take out of my post? Note that women were empowered and a crucial part of the decision making process in many American nations, including direct involvement in peace negotiations, declaring war, leadership roles, as well as taking care of affairs considered the domain of men. A native American armorer, builder, farmer, trader could be a woman - imagine that in contemporary Europe. The point was and still is that gender roles are a cultural construct.

No, that's not all I took from your post. But the rest from your post is not what I was talking about. I talked about very specific roles (hunting and housekeeping) that seem to be specifically assigned to men and women in many, many cultures, and thus appears to be more physiologically influenced than culturally influenced. I do not refer to any political roles or anything. Just that some roles might actually not be a result of social construction, which is why I disagreed with your notion that traditional gender roles are purely a social construct.
I know there were ancient societies in which women also fought, but were there any matriarchies or matrilinear societies in which the women actually did most of the fighting and hunting? That's the only role I'm talking about now. No politics, no nothing. Hunting and fighting. I was not alluding to any modern "traditional" roles at all. Just roles in general.

 

[Crni Vuk]

no one here said that such things are bad things. I would assume that in such a situation both females and males are caretakers of the family and tribe.

Really, it is more about the western "modern" idea about what males and females should do. Sexual division of labour happen, and there are situations where it makes sense, if its a necessity.

But in our society, such necessities dont exist. There is no reason for them. We are not fighting for our survival.

Though it all really doesnt matter. The its-been-for-20.000-years-lile-that! is not an argument in my opinion. We once used to live in caves, in other times they used to crucify people, or torture was as effective tool in jurisdication. Should we also accept those because it was done for thousands of years? Societies change. And with those also the way how we see genders and what roles those genders have.

 

[BigBoss]

Those things changed because those people discovered more effective or progressive ways to advance society. There's nothing wrong with the way thing's are done today when it comes to the sexes (well, maybe in nations like Saudi Arabia things need to be changed), and it doesn't need to be changed. Change should only come when it benefits society as a whole. Society has been constantly advancing since the birth of humanity. Both men and women have progressed in their positions in the world. Instead of trying to look at what great about each individual sex and nitpick problems between them, we need to establish that we should be viewing the human race as a whole, not as a loose confederation tied between the two sexes of the different races/nationalities/religions of the world. It's certain people who would rather sit here and pick out things that they perceive as problems, which just in turn cause more problems that prevents this from happening.

There's an old saying my father used to like: "Don't try to fix what isn't broken".

 

[TheWesDude]

Your pretense that we're denying the existence of gendered inequalities for men is bordering on the hysterical, TheWesDude. How often do we have to say that yes, problems specific to men are also problems and should similarly be eliminated? But that they're often the result of the same gendered culture that limits women? Because I dunno, man. We've addressed this point a million times and you keep bringing it up as if it's relevant.

the problem is finding women who want to do the job within the established structure.

I'd say the problem is a refusal to alter the established structure. And that's something that goes for every single objection you keep throwing out. Existing structures are not objective realities that should not be tampered with. All of feminism (and really, any social critique) is about those structures and how to alter them.

Women don't want to do these jobs, and men do. Yes, that's part of the problem (though far from all of it). But your analysis stops there, where ours just begins. Why do people make those choices? And once you dig down, you find lots and lots of reasons that have to do with a gendered culture.

and thats the problem with saying the problem is due to a gendered culture.


CEO: hey, IT department head, my email is down! how long until it is fixed!
IT Head: well ma'am, its 3am on a sunday morning and nobody will be in until 9am on monday to look at it.
CEO: what? thats bullshit, get someone on this right fucking now!
IT Head: well you see, we had to eliminate the 24/7 coverage of our IT department because it was felt that a 24/7 environment was very unfriendly to a healthy "work-life balance" so now they are monday through friday 9am to 5 30pm.
CEO: what the hell is that bullshit? it is completely unacceptable that my email will be down without anyone looking at it for over 24 hours!
IT Head: its not just your email, the entire corporate email is down which includes the website with the e-commerce portal.
CEO: and nobody is looking into this? we are losing thousands of dollars an hour, and nobody is even trying to fix this? your fired.


Lead Architect: ok! we have to present this project to the client monday morning at 8am, and i do not think we are fully prepared with all the documentation for the engineering designs are where they need to be. i know its friday and we will all have to come in this weekend and work on this to really get it polished.
HR Head: err sorry sir, but to get all our people we had to guarantee there wouldnt be any mandatory overtime because of our new focus on "quality of work-life balance", we can ask them if they want to come in or work on the weekend, but we cant make it mandatory.
Lead Architect: what? i am going to be here all weekend working on this, i fully expect my whole team to be in here working right along side me trying to really polish this proposal to the client.
HR Head: sorry, but we cant. to get them to sign their work contracts we had to stipulate that overtime must be voluntary.
Lead Architect: tell them that i will be here tomorrow morning voluntarily, and if they are not here voluntarily too, i wont have them join my team for the next project i get.


you see sander, the problem is that not everything is neat. sometimes stuff gets messy. the corporate structure is setup the current way because while at times it can have undesirable outcomes, it works. it is the nature of the beast. and here is the kicker, people keep thinking "oh, it will get better over time" when the reality is that some things will get better, but no matter how much "better" it gets, there will always be the need. we are not actually moving away from 24/7, but moving more and more to a 24/7 setup. that means that people who dont want to work nights/weekends or overtime will find themselves weeded out. look at game and application development. they even specifically talk about the "ea-spouse" stuff i was talking about a while ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer#Quality_of_life

yes, while there has been improvement, it is nowhere near eliminated.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Those things changed because those people discovered more effective or progressive ways to advance society. There's nothing wrong with the way thing's are done today when it comes to the sexes.

I will try to be as friendly as possible, because I feel this is important. But our western societes are still far away from beeing true equal societies, we probably will never get there, but that doesnt mean we should not try it.

To really believe that things are O.K. ... is dangerous. It leads to relativism. Because there ARE victims out there, and they suffer from it.

I mean seriously now. Without any jokes or bulshit. We can of course talk about the effects of sexism, if it really is the source for the gender gap or what ever. But. We cannot deny it. really, sexism exists. Its a hard reality. And there are victims out there. Even in our societies. I think not even Wes denied that - the fact that sexism exists in our modern society. It would be as bad like saying that there is no racism out there, or no corruption or no organized crime, that the hollocaust never happened or whatever. How much it affects our society, that is a whole different discussion of course.

But sorry. Things are not alright. Dont deny it. It is also one of the fastest way to get this topic vated as well.

 

[Sander]

That's a neat parable on labor abuses, TheWesDude. Those practice are bullshit, abusive and unacceptable, too. Yet another instance where the system is the problem, and that's the entire point.

 

[TheWesDude]

and no, i have never denied sexism and discrimination exists everywhere.

what i hate is whenever a discrepancy is found the people who say that is the answer without acknowledging the possibility that it could also be explained by other factors. nor is it ever as cut and dry as people make it out to be.

it seems like those are the easy answers people run to when they shouldnt be. thats the point of the example i tried to make with company A and company B. you can find whatever answer you want, confirmation bias and intellectual honesty. there are so many factors involved with work and pay and what occupations people go into, the answer of sexism and discrimination is a cop out. it shouldnt be a go-to answer.

EDIT:

That's a neat parable on labor abuses, TheWesDude. Those practice are bullshit, abusive and unacceptable, too. Yet another instance where the system is the problem, and that's the entire point.

if you truly think that either of those situations i proposed would not go exactly as i described? then you really are quite disconnected.

 

[Sander]

No, I know they go as described. And I'm saying that's a problem. Those are abusive labor practices. Actually everything you described in that post constitutes abusive labor practices.

 

[Crni Vuk]

it seems like those are the easy answers people run to when they shouldnt be. thats the point of the example i tried to make with company A and company B. you can find whatever answer you want, confirmation bias and intellectual honesty. there are so many factors involved with work and pay and what occupations people go into, the answer of sexism and discrimination is a cop out. it shouldnt be a go-to answer.

but does it really matter if the gab is caused by bias, harassment, sexism or what ever you think it is? I think while it is a good question, it is not really THAT important afterall.

Two people, doing the same job, should get the same payment. That is all I am saying.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I am personaly not so worried about the fact that there are many areas where you have only very few males or females doing the job, a lot of it can be explained by history and traditions, see the military for example.

What actually really disturbs me is the extremly low number of females in leading positions in politics, industry, economics and the media (advertesting for example).

Why isn't later also explainable by history and tradition? Why is it ok for garbage disposers to be 99% men, cuz tradhishuns, but not ok for later because of the same reasons? And why for the love of God you feel ''disturbed'' about that. Disturbance is a strong emotion, not something relied to rational and reasonable concern.
On a side note, what do women bring to the table such that artificial push into certain sorts of industries for them is such a crucial task? Is there a rational reason for that?

 

[Crni Vuk]

because garbage disposers usually don't decide shit in a nation, despite their importance for society. Is it such a surprise that you will see more people complaining about high quality high payment jobs in a society where money is not only a very big focus but also giving you a form of freedom. If garbage disposers would be ruling this nation, then maybe you would see more females trying to get in to that. What do I know.

By the way, where did I said that its alright.

On a side note, what do women bring to the table such that artificial push into certain sorts of industries for them is such a crucial task? Is there a rational reason for that?

But of course.

Ever tried to make advertising for females with a group exclusively made of males? No? Even our teachers for advertising said this is stupid. But lets go with this as well:

Men and Women Really Do Think Differently

They are not more intelligent or more skilled or inherently better. They just bring most of the time different experiences to the table. A different way of thought process.

 

[Gnarles Bronson]

its true that many cultures have a much healthier stance to sexuality then our western civilisation. Some cultures don't even know the concept of sexuality like we do, the idea of homosexuality, or heterosexuality for them everyones bisexual, which is also a lot closer to the way how Kinsey saw sexuality.

Sort of off topic, but this is something that fascinates me: How we went from people thinking caesar was strange for only liking women, to homosexuality being almost universally taboo...

 

[Sander]

Why isn't later also explainable by history and tradition? Why is it ok for garbage disposers to be 99% men, cuz tradhishuns, but not ok for later because of the same reasons?

I don't recall anyone saying that those gender disparities are okay. Why do you and others in this thread keep throwing out this straw man?

On a side note, what do women bring to the table such that artificial push into certain sorts of industries for them is such a crucial task? Is there a rational reason for that?

You mean aside from the fact that they're human beings and human beings should be treated like human beings?

 

[Surf Solar]

No, I know they go as described. And I'm saying that's a problem. Those are abusive labor practices. Actually everything you described in that post constitutes abusive labor practices.

Have you ever worked in a real job, in the real world I mean?

 

[Tagaziel]

Just because a practice is widespread, doesn't mean it's good or even close to acceptable. You sound like a 19th century capitalist, defending his right to employ child slaves in mines.

 

[BigBoss]

Those things changed because those people discovered more effective or progressive ways to advance society. There's nothing wrong with the way thing's are done today when it comes to the sexes.

I will try to be as friendly as possible, because I feel this is important. But our western societes are still far away from beeing true equal societies, we probably will never get there, but that doesnt mean we should not try it.

To really believe that things are O.K. ... is dangerous. It leads to relativism. Because there ARE victims out there, and they suffer from it.

I mean seriously now. Without any jokes or bulshit. We can of course talk about the effects of sexism, if it really is the source for the gender gap or what ever. But. We cannot deny it. really, sexism exists. Its a hard reality. And there are victims out there. Even in our societies. I think not even Wes denied that - the fact that sexism exists in our modern society. It would be as bad like saying that there is no racism out there, or no corruption or no organized crime, that the hollocaust never happened or whatever. How much it affects our society, that is a whole different discussion of course.

But sorry. Things are not alright. Dont deny it. It is also one of the fastest way to get this topic vated as well.

Yeah, but you're not talking about changing society here. You're talking about changing free will. It's someone's god given right to be racist and so long as that person keeps it to themselves, the government(s) can't do anything about it. We might not like it, but it was what most democratic governments are built on (free thought).

What you're trying to say is that sexism has affected society in such a massive way that the whole of society needs to be changed. I can say there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but changing an entire system of government or societal order for that?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Uhu! Sorry, but:

Yeah, but you're not talking about changing society here. You're talking about changing free will. It's someone's god given right to be racist and so long as that person keeps it to themselves, the government(s) can't do anything about it. We might not like it, but it was what most democratic governments are built on (free thought).

What you're trying to say is that sexism has affected society in such a massive way that the whole of society needs to be changed. I can say there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but changing an entire system of government or societal order for that?

The constitution or free will if you want so is not a blanket of safety that allows you to say or do everything you want. The issue is that (very!) many people completely misunderstand the intention behind the constitution or your freedom of speech. That laws very often also comes with responsibilities. In fact, they have very real limitations, particularly as far as our society goes. It is the same shit like people walking around with their M4 assault rifles with no other intention than to provoke the cops.

We are not talking about the thought police here. We are talking about the effects of racism or sexism in our society which are real effects. Again, you can not deny this. And you cannot seriously argue about it.

Do you not want to see Afro Americans, or everyone who's not a "white" person having the same god given rights like every other citizen? Do you not want females to have the same opportunities like males? Let's not even talk about all the stuff Wes and Sander argues about here. Just the basics. This is going in a whole different direction.

Just to get this straight.

No one is talking about thoughts.

I suggest that you simply google what Racism and Sexism actually means. And why any self respected democracy should fight those where ever it can within its constitution and laws.

 

[BigBoss]

Alright, first; I'm not even white (again, half Sioux...), so what the hell are you talking about?

Second, you're completely missing the whole point.