Censorship? There is no censorship!

Crni Vuk said:
you coulnd't just let this topic die, couldn't you?
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Revived with a post saying people should stop antagonizing each other, no less. I'll just wait here twiddling my thumbs for the inevitable shitstorm to shower us with its blessings of irony.
 
:mrgreen: Semi serious apologies Crni. Am in a bad mood these last few days and wanted to share the pain... Well at least hurt something.
 
Oh hey look it's "TotalBiscuit proves he's a clueless asshole" part 5,612.

Citation fucking needed that women get more severe harassment, not just different harassment? That exact Pew study you just cited."Young women, those 18-24, experience certain severe types of harassment at disproportionately high levels: 26% of these young women have been stalked online, and 25% were the target of online sexual harassment."
Yes, harassment hurts every demographic. And yet it hurts certain demographics more than others. We have studies showing as much. Or you could talk to the women being harassed, and see the types of harassment they face and how different it is from the harassment most men face. Or, you could stick your head in the sand and pretend that everything's the same for everyone so that we...wait, so that we can do what? What's the point you're making here, TotalBiscuit? What's the big point?

Oh, right, I know. It's to tell people not to "antagonize" others so they won't be harassed. Hurray for victim blaming! Anita Sarkeesian has been harassed for three straight years. That must mean she really antagonized people! Oh no, wait, she just made some really mild complaints about sexism in games. Like, really, really mild complaints. If you think that's antagonistic, you don't have a goddamn clue as to what actual critique and criticism really is.

But nope, TotalBiscuit doesn't care. He's more concerned that people are "condemning perfectly good characters" and "wilfully misrepresenting the work of developers". Because apparently TotalBiscuit can't disagree with a critique without calling it "lying." It can't just be that he doesn't think this one thing isn't as big of an issue. No! It has to be misrepresenting and dishonest! And that's the guy who complains about people not "engag[ing] in any form of rational discourse?"

Oh, and the bit about him claiming there are "outrageous, uncited, unscientific claims" about how games affect real-life attitudes? Yeah, that's horseshit, too. There are quite a few scientific, peer-reviewed studies showing effects of exposure to sexist media reinforcing and exacerbating those views. Note that no one claims that that's why people "develop misogynistic attitudes", though. That's a neat straw man.

Hey, here's a question: why don't you tell the guys on "your side" to stop antagonizing people? I mean, why are you so upset about people critiquing video games (incidentally: your job), and not about assholes like Mike Cernovich or Milo Yiannopoulos or 8chan hosting child porn or RooshV or any of the other despicable shit GamerGate continues to come up with, day after day? Why aren't you going "well maybe we shouldn't be hanging out with assholes"?

Fuck TotalBiscuit. Read this instead: http://www.polygon.com/2014/12/30/7460777/gamergate-2014-just-the-worst

PlanHex said:
Revived with a post saying people should stop antagonizing each other, no less. I'll just wait here twiddling my thumbs for the inevitable shitstorm to shower us with its blessings of irony.
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TotalBiscuit's rants are always fairly ironic, yes. Of course that's not what you mean. It's just how I choose to interpret it.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if you could even argue with your own reflection. And the reflection would quit eventually.
 
Sander said:
Oh hey look it's "TotalBiscuit proves he's a clueless asshole" part 5,612.

Citation fucking needed that women get more severe harassment, not just different harassment? That exact Pew study you just cited."Young women, those 18-24, experience certain severe types of harassment at disproportionately high levels: 26% of these young women have been stalked online, and 25% were the target of online sexual harassment."
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Ok.
That's not what he said though.
He said more as in quantifiably more, not as in more severe. Read it again.
Yes, harassment hurts every demographic. And yet it hurts certain demographics more than others. We have studies showing as much. Or you could talk to the women being harassed, and see the types of harassment they face and how different it is from the harassment most men face. Or, you could stick your head in the sand and pretend that everything's the same for everyone so that we...wait, so that we can do what? What's the point you're making here, TotalBiscuit? What's the big point?
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Hey, that's actually closer to what he said.
The point was that harassment is tailored.

Harassment in gaming spaces mostly fall into the first two camps here: http://www.pewinternet.org/files/2014/10/PI_2014.10.22__online-harassment-13.png
The point is that random trolls on the internet choose the most effective attack vector and these attack vectors are usually not equally severe across demographics.
If you're a random guy, you're a fag with a tiny dick whose ass they could easily kick while they're fucking your mom and sister.
If you're a random woman, they want pics of your tits or else they're coming to rape you.
If you're TB, they're coming to force you to watch as they rape and kill your spouse and children, then you.

This says more about the perpetrators than the victims. Specifically, that the perpetrators are likely men with a severe case of the notgays.
Sander said:
Oh, right, I know. It's to tell people not to "antagonize" others so they won't be harassed. Hurray for victim blaming! Anita Sarkeesian has been harassed for three straight years. That must mean she really antagonized people! Oh no, wait, she just made some really mild complaints about sexism in games. Like, really, really mild complaints. If you think that's antagonistic, you don't have a goddamn clue as to what actual critique and criticism really is.

But nope, TotalBiscuit doesn't care. He's more concerned that people are "condemning perfectly good characters" and "wilfully misrepresenting the work of developers". Because apparently TotalBiscuit can't disagree with a critique without calling it "lying." It can't just be that he doesn't think this one thing isn't as big of an issue. No! It has to be misrepresenting and dishonest! And that's the guy who complains about people not "engag[ing] in any form of rational discourse?"
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The video his comment is a response to is a response video to the femfreq video about male privilege in gaming spaces. It does not have anything to do with the harassment of Sarkeesian, it has to do with the content on her channel. I doubt he's holding her more responsible than McIntosh.

Lying was only mentioned in regard to Hitman Absolution, and I'm guessing he's referring to them saying something or other about the player being encouraged to kill random scantily clad women NPCs, while the mechanics of the game heavily discourage killing random people, especially civilians. I vaguely remember seeing people take issue with that a while back.
Very clearly dishonest and misrepresenting the facts if true. Haven't played any of them past Hitman 2, so wouldn't really know, although I remember there was a similar system in place back then too.
Sander said:
Hey, here's a question: why don't you tell the guys on "your side" to stop antagonizing people? I mean, why are you so upset about people critiquing video games (incidentally: your job), and not about assholes like Mike Cernovich or Milo Yiannopoulos or 8chan hosting child porn or RooshV or any of the other despicable shit GamerGate continues to come up with, day after day? Why aren't you going "well maybe we shouldn't be hanging out with assholes"?
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He left the hashtag ages ago, dude. Officially and everything.
That was that thing you wanted, right? Or does that no longer qualify as leaving the movement? Please explain to me in detail why a youtube post expressing the sentiments I've clarified for you qualifies as being part of a group that isn't mentioned anywhere in the video or description. Or write a 3000 word essay on a topic of your choice. I suggest the title "arghblargh i hate tb because of reasons that are totally justified but i can't think of any so just trust me"
 
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Holy shit I just noticed you posted this Sander. I just finished reading through that tired bullshit then suffered through the countless comments with both sides spouting out the same inane talking points like fucking parrots.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/12/30/7460777/gamergate-2014-just-the-worst

Typical. Of all the places Sander. Bravo. The pinnacle of gaming journalism right there. Please tell me you post there actively. :smile:
 
But they should write stories that can put females into the game even if it isn't historically accurate! Right!? RIGHT!? ARRRGRHH!!!!!!

facemelt.gif
 
Kilus said:
This is the song that doesn't end
Yes, it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .
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yeah this whole topic slowly becomes like the Israel/Palestinan conflict. I am still trying to figure out which side is who though. All I know is that I want to be Clinton. Clinton gets the chicks. Wait? isnt that mysognistic?
 
TorontRayne said:
But they should write stories that can put females into the game even if it isn't historically accurate! Right!? RIGHT!? ARRRGRHH!!!!!!
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There was never a time when there weren't women around. There are always women. We've just chosen not to tell their stories, and instead focus on the men's stories, to the point of actively excising women's roles in men's stories. Most "but historically" justifications are not actually historically accurate, but only adhere to the popular misunderstanding of history.

And choosing a setting where you can justify the minimized presence of women is also a choice, and deserves to be critiqued as a choice.

PlanHex said:
Hey, that's actually closer to what he said.
The point was that harassment is tailored.

Harassment in gaming spaces mostly fall into the first two camps here: http://www.pewinternet.org/files/2014/10/PI_2014.10.22__online-harassment-13.png
The point is that random trolls on the internet choose the most effective attack vector and these attack vectors are usually not equally severe across demographics.
If you're a random guy, you're a fag with a tiny dick whose ass they could easily kick while they're fucking your mom and sister.
If you're a random woman, they want pics of your tits or else they're coming to rape you.
If you're TB, they're coming to force you to watch as they rape and kill your spouse and children, then you.

This says more about the perpetrators than the victims. Specifically, that the perpetrators are likely men with a severe case of the notgays.
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That's a nice, charitable reading of what TotalBiscuit could mean. However, it's also completely non-contextual.

He's saying these things in a space where harassment of women has consistently been denied and minimized, and he says it while knowing that it'll give further support to the minimization and denial of women's harassment. More than that, he says it as a comment on a video by Karen Straughan, also known as GirlWritesWhat, also known as the men's rights activist who thinks women have exploited men for the past two centuries, society is set up to make it easier for women, and someone who frequently denies and minimizes the existence of any problems women face. And that includes minimizing harassment faced by women, in the very video he's commenting on. That's what he's agreeing with when he says "I made this point myself."

There's more, though. There's no real indication that he really thinks women face harsher harassment online - every step of that paragraph tries to equate it with harassment of men, from pointing out that some men are raped, to noting that men receive targeted harassment, to noting that men receive just as much harassment. And to make matters worse, he foists off the harassment on a vague group of equal-opportunity harassers -- which, again, pretends that it's just a coincidence that women receive the harshest harassment.

So yes, I feel pretty justified in not taking the most charitable reading possible here.

PlanHex said:
The video his comment is a response to is a response video to the femfreq video about male privilege in gaming spaces. It does not have anything to do with the harassment of Sarkeesian, it has to do with the content on her channel. I doubt he's holding her more responsible than McIntosh.
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If you look at the previous paragraph, he lists a series of complaints. All of those complaints have frequently been leveled at Anita Sarkeesian specifically, and not McIntosh. Moreover, the actual person who's been the target of most of the harassment has been...Anita Sarkeesian, and not McIntosh. Even if he were referring to McIntosh, though, it's not like he's been particularly antagonistic either. And even if he had been antagonistic...so? Why does TotalBiscuit feel the need to blame the victims for the actions of, in his words, assholes?

PlanHex said:
Lying was only mentioned in regard to Hitman Absolution, and I'm guessing he's referring to them saying something or other about the player being encouraged to kill random scantily clad women NPCs, while the mechanics of the game heavily discourage killing random people, especially civilians. I vaguely remember seeing people take issue with that a while back.
Very clearly dishonest and misrepresenting the facts if true. Haven't played any of them past Hitman 2, so wouldn't really know, although I remember there was a similar system in place back then too.
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Sarkeesian never said that about Hitman: Absolution specifically, only about games that use women as background decoration in general -- but that lie's been repeated so often that everyone believes it anyway. Even if she had said it about Hitman: Absolution specifically, the context was that games encourage people to try these things because they make it possible to do so. That's a specific form of encouragement and you can argue over whether that's fair or not, but it's certainly not lying, nor is it willfully misrepresenting.

Also he concluded his previous paragraph with "Justice achieved through lies is not justice", which suggests he's making a general comment about Sarkeesian and McIntosh lying, rather than just a specific one.

PlanHex said:
He left the hashtag ages ago, dude. Officially and everything.
That was that thing you wanted, right? Or does that no longer qualify as leaving the movement? Please explain to me in detail why a youtube post expressing the sentiments I've clarified for you qualifies as being part of a group that isn't mentioned anywhere in the video or description. Or write a 3000 word essay on a topic of your choice. I suggest the title "arghblargh i hate tb because of reasons that are totally justified but i can't think of any so just trust me"
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Because he still supports GamerGate. That's from eight days ago, after he said he didn't want to be a figurehead. As far as I know, he has not actually recanted his support at any point since then.


So, let's recap. TotalBiscuit minimizes the harassment women face, blames the victims of harassment for being "antagonistic", proceeds to complain about their unwillingness to engage in "rational discourse" while himself perpetuating falsehoods and straw men, and continues to support the movement that has produced oodles of harassment.

Wait, why am I supposed to be okay with this?
 
In all seriousness and beyond all #gamergate stuff if an indie developer has twitter and uses it regularly there is a 99% I hate them. Maybe that isn't fair, maybe I just hate how people act on twitter.
 
Guys, the GamerGate shows a severe lack in empathy. I mean, there is this guy, just got himself an arts 'degree' and starts to realise that on the market it would be worth more if it was printed on toilet paper. Faces a choice - get into online (there are decent magazines, made by actually competent people printed on paper - guess it takes more responsibility than a shitty blog, huh?) gaming 'journalism' or get to mopping the floor at the local fast food place. Can't be easy, especially since he has to push whichever narrative his owner tells him to. Can you blame the poor bastard for finally snapping, calling himself a 'gaming culture critic' and praising what is basically the game equivalent of 'White on White' (a picture that the French used as their standard during WW2)? Or (and this honestly baffles me) getting a delusion of some higher purpose? Have a heart.

That said, this whole thing is just as much of a publicity stunt as any other of those 'big argument' things. A bunch of journalists lies to you. You buy that. You go on the Internet and argue with people who have been lied to by some other bunch. In the meantime both bunches get publicity and a new hot topic to write about. Just how old is that trick? But screw that! We live in the era of information! Everyone can hear what they want to hear!
 
No Man said:
That said, this whole thing is just as much of a publicity stunt as any other of those 'big argument' things. A bunch of journalists lies to you. You buy that. You go on the Internet and argue with people who have been lied to by some other bunch. In the meantime both bunches get publicity and a new hot topic to write about. Just how old is that trick? But screw that! We live in the era of information! Everyone can hear what they want to hear!
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That's some truth, right there.
And the very few people among the ones who participate in this whole tweet and whatever war, who want to achieve change in something other than their own popularity will fail. After this whole thing dies down - and it will eventually - I'm betting my balls that I still won't be able to trust IGN and any other review site, nor will I see any games that have "diversity" (well, maybe a cruel, Bioware type mockery of it).
 
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