China goes Fuedal on Buddhists

welsh said:
Now think about that- you say China has changed. Yet its seems that political power still comes from the barrel of a gun. Doubt it? Ask a Tibetan.
This is all well and pretty, but what do you propose for the Tibet when and if they regain their autonomy... A return to their ancient regime perhaps? That will be dandy if that's what they want, I doubt it, but for an outsider that will be a backward proposition to make.

I'm just asking, sometimes I wonder why is it that outsiders prefer a form of government over another, for a part of the world under other conditions... But this case in particular is an enigma, the old state regime of the Tibet was worse than what they've today, yet people support the Dalai Lama so he can return to his safe craddle and rule as a demigod, that guy gives me the creeps. Or maybe it isn't an enigma, maybe people are content with antagonising a form of government they dislike just for the sake of fashion.
 
You're a little late in this rather lengthy discussion, but you will note that I did not argue for independence for Tibet.

I said Fuck China.

I have more appropriate said, Fuck the Chinese Communist Party.

As for Tibet- its' between a rock and a hard place. I can't see China ever giving it up.

But that doesn't mean the Chinese have to go all facist on them, does it?

As for fashion- not sure when Facism came back into style. Maybe in China?
 
welsh said:
You're a little late in this rather lengthy discussion, but you will note that I did not argue for independence for Tibet.
Sorry then....

I said Fuck China.

I have more appropriate said, Fuck the Chinese Communist Party.

As for Tibet- its' between a rock and a hard place. I can't see China ever giving it up.

But that doesn't mean the Chinese have to go all facist on them, does it?
Already noticed it, I'm not sure what does that have to do with my reply, but sure.
As for fashion- not sure when Facism came back into style. Maybe in China?
The fashion I'm talking about is the one that has self proclaimed "deeply" democratic people going against China just for the fact that they took over the Tibet, and defending the Tibet in turn, or more appropiately, the Dalai Lama which is the only public figure of the Tibet and perhaps the only one, together with his little circle of advisors, who has any idea of what's going to happen in the event that his old nation regains autonomy from the chinise State. Actually...I think we all know.
 
Soulforged said:
As for fashion- not sure when Facism came back into style. Maybe in China?
The fashion I'm talking about is the one that has self proclaimed "deeply" democratic people going against China just for the fact that they took over the Tibet, and defending the Tibet in turn, or more appropiately, the Dalai Lama which is the only public figure of the Tibet and perhaps the only one, together with his little circle of advisors, who has any idea of what's going to happen in the event that his old nation regains autonomy from the chinise State. Actually...I think we all know.

Well, its fairly normal for people of a democratic state to find the repression of an ethnic minority (Tibet) by a pseudo facist state (China) disturbing.

I am curious. Since the Dalai Lama has claimed he doesn't want independence but a more autonomous existence, what do you know of the Dalai Lama's mind?

And where do you get your information?

Or is partial autonomy ok if you're say, Hong Kong, but not Tibet? Maybe because Hong Kong is rich and Tibet is not?

To be honest, if I was Taiwan, I would have some second thoughts about that whole "one China two policy thing."
 
I don't see any need to 'Fuck China'.
It seems clear to me their aggressive,
abusive behaviour toward Tibet is quite
normal imperialistic behaviour. They saw
an easy way to invade a weaker country
and create some sketchy historical justification
to get the moral high ground. They've watched
western countries like Britain and the US do it
for the last 100 years. Now they want some of
the action. I think we can credit ourselves
(as westerners) as the inspiriation for the
Destruction of Tibet's culture.
 
So Josan-

The Belgians kill the Congolese,
The Spaniards kill the South Americans
The Americans kill the Indians
The Turks kill the Armenians
The Germans kill the Jews
The Cambodians kill each other
The Hutus kill the Tutsi.

And we can't put an end to this because...
We are all chained to history?

I hope you realize that the reason your argument stinks is that its buried in a pile of shit.
 
welsh said:
Well, its fairly normal for people of a democratic state to find the repression of an ethnic minority (Tibet) by a pseudo facist state (China) disturbing.
One thing is to find it disturbing, another is to make whole campaings with the object to change a regime, or to make public protests, possibly as part of this campaing, for the return to the old regime. I'm not talking about you.
I am curious. Since the Dalai Lama has claimed he doesn't want independence but a more autonomous existence, what do you know of the Dalai Lama's mind?
What is a "more autonomous existence"? As for his mind, I don't pretend to know what he thinks, I only know that the probabilities of a return to the old forms of repression and terror are pretty high if he returns to the rule.
And where do you get your information?
Massive media, of course...
Or is partial autonomy ok if you're say, Hong Kong, but not Tibet? Maybe because Hong Kong is rich and Tibet is not?
What is partial autonomy welsh?

For the record my whole point is that prefering a Lama ruled Tibet over a China ruled one makes no sense if the argument is that one of them is cruel and dehumanizing (using this term is a problem here though, since every regime up to this moment has been dehumanizing to some degree).
 
Im not saying it's hopeless.
Im simply saying it's my belief
that there's a scared, aggressive
bullying imperialist in all of us.

First we need to recognise that,
then recognise that western countries
such as Britain and the US have propogated
more hatred and destruction than
possibly any other nations in history.
 
Perhaps, but I repress him into his little box and dump him in a vat of concrete so he can't create an effect on the majority of my interaction with humanity.

I love being Canadian, the only thing we piss off in a national scale is maybe the Americans over trading disputes, levies, taxes, and other nasty prodding.

At least it used to be like that until Harper, but that's another spiel.

As for China, I hate to sound like a defeatist, but what the blue bloody hell can be done, I will not ask the Chinese to do something that I wouldn't be willing to do myself, and a governmental reform, including rebellion, would require bloodshed if you are right Welsh.

I am not willing to fight for China, are you?

Outside forces are all but useless in this, China's too big, and to try and antagonize them will only solidify their hold against the attacking outsiders.

This is China's problem, it's people need to make a stand for their rights, it's not up to me or you, whom are safely away from the Chinese Regime right now, to point fingers at the Chinese and say "You have to do this because it's right due to my european/western ideals!"

That's pure bullocks welsh, the Olympics aren't going to change this, it's up to the people whom allow the mantle to be placed upon their shoulders that the CCP give them.

They need to cast off their mantle willingly, otherwise it will be for naught.

If you want China to change, go out to the people, that some 46%, and preach to them, see how much the repressed want to strike back, because squawking here is only going to assuage your conscience and no good is going to come of it in the end, the CCP will still reign, and Tibet's rebellious streak will be quashed again.

It's sad, it's not a nice thing to say, but it's the bloody truth, it's nice to be an idealist, but if you don't act on your words you only wind up being a hypocrite in the end.

Only China can fix China, and any other countries getting involved in their internal strife will only antagonize the situation rather than remedy it.
 
Bit late to join the party, I just want to add my two itsy bitsy cents. Hope you'll excuse me.



China's currently got the US by the balls, and the rest of the world with it. The multi trillion dollar trade deficit the USA has with China, is more than a little issue. China gets anxious one day, says pay up buddies, and all the US can do is make pretty kitty eyes. Now China doesn't wanna do that (just yet) because it'd put a big massive damper on its economy, but we might not wanna get too heated with them.

On the other side, we have to ask ourselves a moral question. Do we wanna be supporting a despotic iron-fist rule?
Now that's not as straightforward a question as it may at first seem.
Some of you have been complaining about how China (or rather the Party) is exploitng its people, how despite its rampant economic growth for the majority of people little has changed. Economically boycotting (sanctioning/establishing an embargo) the country ain't gonna make it much more blissful for the common farmer. If the country's further strained for resources, don't think its the common folk that are gonna end up with an extra bowl of rice. Plus with over a billion people under your belt and totalitarian control, the party wouldn't be rushing to capitulate.


Another issue totally is China's "claim" to Tibet. I hear some say that all empires, country's have had to get their hands dirty and stenched in blood. I don't see how whatever evil someone may have done in the past, is an excuse for further "eviling". Besides, I think (post Imperial) China has had more than its fair share of bloodshed.


DarkCorp you said something earlier about America reacting a similar way under similar circustances, i.e. if some states wanted to secede from the union. Ignoring the fact that the consitution would kinda be totally invalidated if any of the states left thus leaving all other states also fully autonomous, do you really believe that it would be worth a war thousands of your people dying, to prevent a California or other state from being self soverign? That thing you said about harbouring terrorism is complete and utter WTF-age!!!. A former state of the US of A, suddenly turning actively hostile against its former fellow states...
Also its a really bad analogy, because all American states are part of the USA out of their own will (bar the civil war), Tibet was invaded (...so were the Native Americans).

I feel bad for Tibet and for other oppresed nations. I have a special sympathy for Tibet, though, I guess because they were generally a very peacful nation, invaded for its oil and uranium reserves. What's particularly pernicuous is that China is intent on eradicating the nation. I'm not talking about executions, sure a great deal must've died this past week, but over the last 20 years China has been colonizing Tibet by inhabiting Chinese settlers in the millions, to the point were Tibetans are now a minority in their own land.

But there are many other such nations all around the world. The Chechens have suffered a great deal more, but its not about comparing, they're all tragedies, how many people die in China daily from totally unrelated reasons?
Would helping out one poor nation with a boycott be worth it? I don't know whether a boycott would do much. I think they shouldn't have been given the olympics in the first place, they knew what they were up for.
But shouting, complaining in shock and awe, suddenly waking up and realizing that The Party is bad, whilst living by the products of its impoverished workers (though now (poor) to a lesser extent), is kinda stinky.

But yeah.

Fuck - The Communist Party.
 
The thing is, communistic governments are good at making people around the world forget about the things it's doing, so it usually takes a slap in the face to make people realize what's happening.

Anyway, I understand that in history there were numerous situations where one country was invaded and taken over by another. The thing is, China could simply take over Tibet, make a puppet government and control it from afar, but letting them sort their stuff out. Instead, they chose to destroy Tibet's culture and replace it with with theirs, killing or throwing out all opposition. And that sucks. Leaving the Olympics out of this, as nothing can or should be done about it now, I still think we should at least realize that things aren't as their should be. To actually do something about it is something diffrent entirely and should be organized by proper factions (UN, NATO etc.)
 
What I am saying is plunging China into civil war and turning it into another Iraq, Iran, Somalia, etc, etc, isn't going to make things better.

Jabu

Dude, are you smoking something? You just brought up the civil war.

Lets see in the civil war, states seceded from the union despite whatever the fuck was in the constitution ok. Then, the federal government, realizing how much of a problem that might cause used military forces to bring those states back into line by FORCE. What ensued was thousands of americans dying so that america would never again be fractured.

So yeah dude, the government did fucking kill its own people in order to make sure the country as a whole stayed strong instead of being weak and divided. Saying (barring teh civil war) doesn't mean it didn't fucking happen.

Its so weird I keep hearing "just because evil happened before it shouldn't happen again". Thats fucking moral bullshit.

You say that in hindsight after america has reaped all the benefits of its imperialistic ways.

Holy cow, what you mean is actually this.

US/England/whatever the fuck country that got rich, developed, and owes its current power status to prostituting other countries is making a speech to the world. Speech goes:

We came to be superpowers because we prostituted the fuck out of other countries. Even though were are now fucking still enjoying the fruits of our imperialistic ambitions of the past, we say what we did was wrong. Since we admit we were wrong, nobody can do what we did in the past. If you do follow our example in order to further your own country, we will fucking beat you with the morality stick/military intervention/topple your government.

Thats complete and utter fucking bullshit hypocracy man. Some can do it but others can't?
 
I'm not excusing the civil war, I believe it could have been handled more peacefully, and without a breakup of the union, though perhaps it wouldn't have been resolved so quickly, by the organized eventual buying out and freeing of slaves. But it doesn't matter, that's not the point.


You cannot go excusing a country for genocide by saying that: Oh well, our ancestor's did the same thing, let them have their turn. It's only fair. That's not how the world works. Like you said that's some fucking moral bullshit. A country does what a country does when it needs to. If you invaded country Z a while back (and eventually retreated), that doesn't mean you should give them the chance to do the same to you. No white gloves. You do what's best for your country. You need to bang them, then Bang the Motherfuckers!

Now this could be seen as a justification or rationale for China's actions against Tibet, what I actually mean to show is that we (as non-party members) shouldn't give a fuck whether or not it's kind of unfair that our ancestors sorta acted similar but China shouldn't be permitted its own go, what we need to look at is whether what's going on their is beneficial to us or not. By beneficial I don't only mean economically profitable, but also, or primarily, whether we approve of what goes on there. It may be unfair, it may be hypocritical but that's how the world works. Survival of the fittest, unless you want to save the weaker, but for that you need to be the strongest anyway. States have no unwritten obligation to foreign states to give them equal opportunities.
 
I feel what you are saying Jabu. Thing is I do not see a civil war china as good especially since they do possess nuclear weapons.

I also don't want to see the government go down only to come back as some super aggressive nationalistic regime who remembers the way the world turned their backs to them. Remember, people didn't give a fuck when germany collapsed until hitler came to power and blamed the whole world for germanies shitty times (well the jews but in hitlers eyes the jews ruled the world).

In a way I would say fuck the CCP if they cannot change but I think the ccp can change with time.

PS just to clarify the terrorism issue.

Welsh thought up the whole home grown terrorist thing. If tibet isn't strong enough to defend itself from another country how the hell is it gonna police its borders so terrorists dont use tibet to get into china.

Thats why I mentioned america. A state which seceded could still have anti-american groups who think more needs to be done. They then allow foreigners to enter the us via their newly seceded state as long as said foreign terrorists share the same values as said terrorists in the seceded state.
 
I think that if you believe in your ideals and values, than you have to act on them. And if you believe in them, than you have to willing to articulate them as well.

If you do not, or if you surrender those values because your economic interests are more important, than your silence is equally loud. You have sold out. That goes for individuals, societies, and countries.

Sorry, but I don't believe we should sell out to the Chinese- not our values and not over cheap Chinese imports. If we do, then we might as well throw those values and ideals away. And once we do that, than we might as well accept our own hollowness.

As for China - it would be sad if it came down to civil war, but that may be the only way that the CCP will change. There has been this idea that- with capitalist growth the CCP will eventually democratize.

That's the old capitalism leads to democracy argument, which doesn't hold water.

Capitalism leads to lots of things, but democracy is not one of them. What leades to democracy is regime change. The cause of regime change is complex- sometimes there is a palace coup, sometimes there is a revolution from below, and occasionally, a regime changes because it decides to undergo political transformation.

Normally a palace coup leads to another dictatorship- for why surrender power if you control it all.

A popular revolution or civil war can lead to new democracies, but also uncertainty. In America you eventually get a democracy, in France you got an emperor and war.

Is China likely to transform itself? The answer is usually- with time. But I doubt it. Why would the CCP ever open itself up. In fact, the data points in the other way. While some Chinese have prospered, many have become impoverished as income gaps between rich and poor are among the highest in the world.

At the same time, giving China more time would also mean that the CCP could become increasingly strong, threaten US interests, and continue to cause hardships on other countries by its currency manipulation.

BN started this by saying we should give China the benefit of the doubt. I don't. China has had the benefit of the doubt for 30 years. Now its back to reeducation camps for Tibetans. It continues to threaten its neighbors with war, and in the process it had reduced nearly 1/2 of its population to slavery. And its economic policies- used to sustain its hegemony, have a harmful effect on American and Europe. Since much of China's success comes from its success in the international economy, I think its time to divert those resources away from China.

Instead of buying Chinese goods, we should buy cheap manufacturers from Mozambique or Bangledesh. Instead of paying for Chinese slave laborers we should be offering better salaries to people in Morocco or Guatemala or Peru. The US and Europe would further its ties to the rest of the world. Instead of building new factories in China we can build them in Poland, in the Ukraine or at home.

And this trend could start by boycotting the Olympics.

By the way, I didn't bring up the homegrown terrorism thing. IN fact I am not siure what that issue was. Someone else said the Tibetans are terrorists. Tibetan monks turned terrorism? That's a fiction. I don't think terrorism is an issue unless the Chinese are using it to justify their rule.

Honestly, the terrorism thing is just stupid.

News from Tibet-
Listen

China's Provinces Feel Crush of Tibet Crackdown

by Louisa Lim
Pilgrims prostrate themselves along a highway near Qinghai Lake. These young Tibetan men say they have no Chinese friends.

Morning Edition, March 28, 2008 · As China tightens its grip on Tibet, it is also stepping up controls on monks in other Chinese provinces, forcing them to denounce the Dalai Lama and forbidding them from leaving their monasteries. The crackdown has exploded Beijing's myth of ethnic harmony, leaving both Chinese and Tibetan communities living in fear.

The current crisis began after anti-government protests by Tibetan monks earlier this month in Lhasa, Tibet. China says the Dalai Lama instigated the unrest, but the exiled Tibetan leader has denied the claim.

A battle over the Dalai Lama is now being played out in Tibetan monasteries in the provinces. Chanting the scriptures is now taking second place to a new government-orchestrated patriotic education campaign.

Monks in Qinghai province, bordering Tibet, are being placed under constant surveillance by Chinese security forces. One monk said they now spend most of their days in political meetings at which they are forced to denounce the Dalai Lama and call him a terrorist.

"In the meetings, they say the Dalai Lama wants Tibetan independence," said the monk, who asked to remain anonymous for fear of retaliation. "They say he's isolated internationally, he's got no support. They say Tibetan independence will never happen."

The monk says there were no demonstrations in his monastery, though he wishes he could have participated. And new restrictions have been placed on the monks in his monastery and in many others in the surrounding area, he says.

"Now we aren't allowed out of our monastery. We have agents of the state security apparatus watching over our lives," he says. "They want all of us to live together in one room and eat together with them. When the agents aren't there, we monks aren't allowed to stay in a room together. We don't have any freedom."

There are signs that the lockdown affects not just the monasteries, but entire Tibetan regions of Chinese provinces that have seen unrest. In a once-bustling Tibetan market in Xining, the capital of Qinghai, shopkeepers say business has completely disappeared.

"Before, we had lots of Tibetan customers. Now, nobody's allowed out of their towns," says the Tibetan boss of a shop selling religious objects who asked that her name not be used.

"Of course we're scared. All Tibetans are scared. It's not just about myself, it's about my entire country," adds a fellow Tibetan.

And he means Tibet, not China. The wave of unrest sweeping over Tibetan regions of China has exposed Beijing's failures and undermined its carefully nurtured ideal of ethnic harmony.

That much is clear when venturing into the vast expanse of the Tibetan plateau, where grazing yaks make tiny black dots against the enormous barren mountains. Five young pilgrims are prostrating themselves along a road circling Qinghai Lake. The wooden paddles in their hands scrape along the highway, as the pilgrims road-surf, throwing their bodies facedown alongside the cars and lorries. They will do this for two months, they say, as a devotional practice. They describe their lives as lived within a Tibetan enclave.

"I've got no Chinese friends," says Tse-chen, 20. "Because we're Tibetan. We don't have anything to do with the Chinese."

China has poured money into developing Tibet and the surrounding provinces in the past half-century, hoping for gratitude and loyalty in return. Tsering Dolma, 69, is among those who have benefited. The government pays her a regular salary for herding sheep, and because her family is classed as poor, she gets extra government subsidies.

"My life is much better than my parents'," she says. "My parents were very poor, and now life is better because of the government's good policies."

But even the subsidies now seem to heighten local tensions, with several Han Chinese complaining that Tibetans receive special treatment. Beijing has encouraged the resettlement of Han Chinese to push forward with economic development and heighten its control of Tibetan areas. It's a measure of the resentment against this policy that Tibetan rioters in Lhasa attacked Chinese businesses two weeks ago. Now other Chinese living alongside Tibetans are scared.

"There are many Tibetans here, so we're worried," says Ye Fulin, who runs a restaurant on the banks of Qinghai. "What would happen to us if the Tibetans here become violent? This is their kingdom."

These days, it seems the one thing Tibetans and Chinese have in common is fear

So why no boycott? Listen- Because of China's wealth means we've sold out

So what did happen in Tibet-

Where here is one view-

A week in Tibet

Trashing the Beijing Road
Mar 19th 2008 | LHASA
From The Economist print edition



Our Beijing correspondent happened to be in Lhasa as the riots broke out. Here is what he saw

ETHNIC-Chinese shopkeepers in Lhasa's old Tibetan quarter knew better than the security forces that the city had become a tinder-box. As word spread rapidly through the narrow alleyways on March 14th that a crowd was throwing stones at Chinese businesses, they shuttered up their shops and fled. The authorities, caught by surprise, held back as the city was engulfed by its biggest anti-Chinese protests in decades.

What began, or may have begun (Lhasa feeds on rumour), as the beating of a couple of Buddhist monks by police has turned into a huge political test for the Chinese government. Tibet has cast a pall over preparations to hold the Olympic games in Beijing in August. Protests in Lhasa have triggered copycat demonstrations in several monasteries across a vast swathe of territory in the “Tibet Autonomous Region” of China and in areas around it (see map). Not since the uprising of 1959, during which the Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader, fled to India, has there been such widespread unrest across this oxygen-starved expanse of mountains and plateaus.


Years of rapid economic growth, which China had hoped would dampen separatist demands, have achieved the opposite. Efforts to integrate the region more closely with the rest of China, by building the world's highest railway connecting Beijing with Lhasa, have only fuelled ethnic tensions in the Tibetan capital. The night before the riots erupted, a Tibetan government official confided to your correspondent that Lhasa was now stable after protests by hundreds of monks at monasteries near the city earlier in the week. He could not have been more wrong.

It was, perhaps, a sign of the authorities' misreading of Lhasa's anger that a foreign correspondent was in the city at all. Foreign journalists are seldom given permission to visit. In January 2007, in preparation for the Olympics, the central government issued new regulations that supposedly make it much easier for them to travel around the country. Travel to Tibet, however, still requires a permit. The Economist's visit was approved before the monks protested on March 10th and 11th, but the authorities apparently felt sufficiently in control to allow the trip to go ahead as planned from March 12th. As it turned out, several of the venues on the pre-arranged itinerary became scenes of unrest.

Rioting began to spread on the main thoroughfare through Lhasa, Beijing Road (a name that suggests colonial domination to many a Tibetan ear), in the early afternoon of March 14th. It had started a short while earlier outside the Ramoche Temple, in a side street close by, after two monks had been beaten by security officials. (Or so Tibetan residents believe; the official version says it began with monks stoning police.) A crowd of several dozen people rampaged along the road, some of them whooping as they threw stones at shops owned by ethnic Han Chinese—a group to which more than 90% of China's population belongs—and at passing taxis, most of which in Lhasa are driven by Hans.

The rioting quickly fanned through the winding alleyways of the city's old Tibetan area south of Beijing Road. Many of these streets are lined with small shops, mostly owned by Hans or Huis, a Muslim ethnic group that controls much of Lhasa's meat trade. Crowds formed, seemingly spontaneously, in numerous parts of the district. They smashed into non-Tibetan shops, pulled merchandise onto the streets, piled it up and set fire to it. Everything from sides of yak meat to items of laundry was thrown onto the pyres. Rioters delighted in tossing in cooking-gas canisters and running for cover as they exploded. A few yelled “Long live the Dalai Lama!” and “Free Tibet!”

For hours the security forces did little. But the many Hans who live above their shops in the Tibetan quarter were quick to flee. Had they not, there might have been more casualties. (The government, plausibly, says 13 people were killed by rioters, mostly in fires.) Some of those who remained, in flats above their shops, kept the lights off to avoid detection and spoke in hushed tones lest their Mandarin dialect be heard on the streets by Tibetans. One Han teenager ran into a monastery for refuge, prostrating himself before a red-robed Tibetan abbot who agreed to give him shelter.

The destruction was systematic. Shops owned by Tibetans were marked as such with traditional white scarves tied through their shutter-handles. They were spared destruction. Almost every other one was wrecked. It soon became difficult to navigate the alleys because of the scattered merchandise. Chilli peppers, sausages, toys (child looters descended on those), flour, cooking oil and even at one spot scores of small-denomination bank notes were ground underfoot by triumphant Tibetan residents into a slippery carpet of filth.

During the night the authorities sent in fire engines, backed by a couple of armoured personnel-carriers laden with riot police, to put out the biggest blazes. By dawn they had also sealed off the Tibetan quarter with a ring of baton-carrying troops and stationed officers with helmets and shields in the square in front of the Jokhang temple, Tibet's most sacred shrine, in the heart of the old district. But they did not move into the alleys, where rioting continued for a second day. Residents within the security cordon attacked the few Han businesses left unscathed and set new fires among the piles of debris.

The risks of crackdown

Han Chinese in Lhasa were baffled and enraged by the slow reaction of the security forces. Thousands of people probably lost most, if not all, of their livelihoods (the majority of Lhasa's small businesses have no insurance, let alone against rioting). But the authorities were clearly hamstrung by the political risks involved. Going in with guns blazing—the tactic used to suppress the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 and the last serious outbreak of anti-Chinese unrest in Lhasa earlier that year—would risk inciting international calls for a boycott of the Olympic games. Instead they chose to let the rioters vent their anger, then gradually tighten the noose.

On March 15th occasional rounds of tear-gas fired at stone-throwing protesters eventually gave way to a more concerted effort to clear the streets. Paramilitary police began moving into the alleys, firing occasional bullets: not bursts of gunfire, but single deliberate shots, probably more in warning than with intent to kill. They also moved from rooftop to rooftop to deter residents from gathering on terraces overlooking the alleys. Rumours abounded of Tibetans killed by security forces in isolated incidents during the earlier rioting, but not during the final push to reassert control over the city. By Chinese standards (not high when it comes to riot control), that effort appeared relatively measured.

By late on March 15th the alleys were quiet. Patrols firing the odd bullet kept most of them deserted the next day, too. A Western student said she saw six Tibetan boys hauled out of their homes by troops, pushed to the ground, kicked and beaten with batons. The boys were then bundled into a bus and driven away. Troops covered up the bloodstains on the road with a white substance, she said. The Tibetan quarter is now gripped by fears of widespread and indiscriminate arrests as the authorities attempt to find “ringleaders”. China's official news agency says 105 rioters have surrendered to the police.

When residents began venturing out more normally on March 17th, the extent of the rioting became clear. Numerous Han Chinese-owned premises well beyond the Tibetan quarter had been attacked. Several buildings had been gutted by fire. The gate of the city's main mosque was charred, and the windows of the guard-house of the Tibet Daily, the region's Communist Party mouthpiece, had been smashed.

The city was under martial law in all but name. The government said that only police were involved in the security operation, but there were many military-looking vehicles on the streets with their tell-tale licence-plates covered up or removed. Some troops refused to say what force they belonged to. Two armoured personnel-carriers were parked in front of the Potala Palace, Lhasa's most famous tourist attraction on the side of the hill overlooking the city, which is now closed. Troops with bayonets were deployed along roads leading to the city's main monasteries, which have been sealed off by police. The rioting on March 14th and 15th involved mainly ordinary citizens, but monks are often at the forefront of separatist unrest in Tibet.

The approaching flame

The government's decision not to declare martial law, or any emergency restrictions, reflected its concern about the Olympics. In March 1989 the authorities imposed martial law in Lhasa to quell separatist unrest. Its measures were barely distinguishable from those now in force in the city. The old Tibetan area has been sealed off by gun-carrying troops, but officials prefer to refer euphemistically to “special traffic-control measures”. This time foreign tourists in Lhasa have been “advised” rather than ordered to leave. On March 18th police and troops began moving the 100 or so remaining tourists to hotels far from the site of the riots. In 1989 foreign journalists were expelled from Lhasa. This time your correspondent was allowed to stay, but only until his permit expired on March 19th. No others were allowed in.

For all the government's attempts to appear unruffled, the recent unrest in Tibet exceeds the challenge it faced in 1989. Since March 10th protests have been reported not only in Lhasa's main monasteries (Drepung, Sera and Ganden), but also at Samye Monastery about 60km east of Lhasa, Labrang Monastery in Gansu province, Kirti Monastery in Sichuan province and Rongwo Monastery in Qinghai province. Tibet's traditional boundaries stretch into these provinces. Outside Labrang Monastery Tibetans attacked Han Chinese shops on March 15th. TibetInfoNet, a news service based in Britain, reported several protests in various parts of Gansu on March 16th. Unlike in the ethnic violence in Lhasa, it said, the protesters' main targets were symbols of state power and government-owned properties.

The challenge is partly a security one. The martial-law regulations imposed in Lhasa in March 1989 were not lifted until May the following year. This time China will need to move faster to restore a semblance of normality. On June 20th the Olympic flame, having been carried up the Tibetan side of Mount Everest the previous month, is due to arrive in Lhasa, where a big ceremony is planned. Barring journalists and flooding Lhasa's streets with troops would be embarrassing. More so would be cancelling the event.

But easing the clampdown would be risky. Many Tibetans see the Olympics as a golden opportunity to bring the world's attention to their problems under Chinese rule. Tibetans living outside China, particularly in India, have been taking advantage of the Olympics to step up their publicity efforts. This is an annoyance to India, which does not want to disrupt relations with China by appearing to condone efforts to disrupt the games. Indian police have blocked efforts, launched on March 10th by hundreds of dissident Tibetans, to stage a march across the mountains into their homeland.

China worries too about the possibility that other ethnic minorities in China, particularly Muslim Uighurs in the far western region of Xinjiang, may be emboldened by Tibetan activism if it is left unchecked. The Chinese authorities have played up reports about recent alleged terrorist activities in Xinjiang (as an excuse to suppress peaceful dissent, say sceptics), including what officials say was an attempt by a Uighur woman to start a fire on board a flight bound for Beijing on March 7th.

Richer, but not happier

The longer-term challenge for China is to rethink its Tibet policy. One reason why Chinese officials appeared so surprised by the unrest is that Tibet has not behaved like the rest of China, where rapid economic growth appears to have staved off a repeat of Tiananmen-style protests. A surge of government spending on infrastructure in recent years and strong growth in Tibet's tourism industry (made easier by the new infrastructure, especially the rail link, which was opened in 2006) have helped the region's GDP growth rate stay above 12% for the past seven years. In 2007 it was 14%, more than two points higher than the national rate.

Incomes have been rising fast too. Officials predict a 13% increase this year for rural residents, a sixth straight year of double-digit growth. Urban residents enjoyed a 24.5% increase in disposable income last year. Robbie Barnett of America's Columbia University says a new middle class has emerged in Lhasa in recent years. But, he says, this has made very little difference to what Tibetans think about politics.

A man not easily angered

In the old Tibetan quarter, many see the Han Chinese as the biggest beneficiaries of economic growth. Hans not only run most of the shops, but are moving into the Tibetan part of the city. Some Tibetans believe Han Chinese now make up around half of the city's population, with the railway bringing in ever more. (An official, however, points out that it is now also easier for Tibetans to reach Lhasa from distant parts of the plateau.)

The economic statistics may be misleading. Incomes may have been growing fast on average, but in the countryside averages have been skewed by soaring demand in the rest of China for a type of traditional medicine known as caterpillar fungus. Tibetans in rural areas where this fungus grows have seen their incomes rocket (and fights have broken out among them over the division of fungus-producing land). In the cities, many complain about fast-rising prices of goods imported from other parts of China. Inflation is a big worry elsewhere in China too, but Tibetan bystanders watching the riots said that Chinese officials had promised the rail link would help bring prices down. The near-empty expanse of the Lhasa Economic and Technological Development Area suggests that officials are having trouble replicating in Tibet the manufacturing boom seen elsewhere in China.

Tibetans also resent the hardline policies of Tibet's party chief, Zhang Qingli. Mr Zhang, who is a Han (China apparently does not yet trust Tibetans to hold this crucial post), was appointed in 2005 after a spell spent crushing separatism in Xinjiang. When he took charge, neglected rules banning students and the families of civil servants from taking part in religious activities began once more to be rigorously enforced. Mr Zhang also stepped up official invective against the Dalai Lama, who is widely revered. (Many Tibetans in Lhasa defiantly hang portraits of him in their homes, or did until the troops moved in.) Mr Zhang urged more “patriotic education” in monasteries, part of which involves denouncing the Dalai Lama. He banned the display of portraits of the Karmapa Lama, who fled to India in 1999 and enjoys a devoted following in Tibet.

The Dalai Lama's role

Chinese officials have been divided over whether greater contact with the Dalai Lama would help to pacify Tibet. Between 2002 and July last year Chinese officials held six rounds of talks with the Dalai Lama's representatives. Laurence Brahm, an American author who has tried to mediate, says the discussions reached a high point in 2005 when the Chinese appeared to recognise that the Dalai Lama was crucial to resolving Tibet's tensions. At one stage the Chinese even considered allowing the Dalai Lama to visit Wutai Mountain in Shanxi province as a confidence-building measure, but they got cold feet. Talks eventually foundered over China's refusal to accept the Dalai Lama's statements that all he wants is Tibet's autonomy within China.

With troops on the streets, dialogue looks unlikely in the near future. China has accused the “Dalai Lama clique” of organising the riots. The Dalai Lama has denied involvement and has accused the Chinese of carrying out “cultural genocide” in his homeland. But he also needs to worry about the future of Han Chinese in Tibet. Many Han business people in Lhasa say they are planning to leave. Tourism from the interior, crucial to Lhasa's economy, is likely to be hard hit too. In the end, China may have a point with its obsession about economics. The recent boom has not won the loyalty or affection of Tibetans, but a slump would make them all the more angry.
 
welsh said:
Honestly, the terrorism thing is just stupid.
I'm not sure if you're refering to me, if you're, then that's not what I said, and if what you're arguing is that the tibetan regime is not despotic and brings order through terror then you're mistaken, and that's exactly what they're going to do if they regain autonomy because... let me quote you:

(...) if you believe in your ideals and values, than you have to act on them. And if you believe in them, than you have to willing to articulate them as well.

I'm aware that I'm taking your statement out of context, but then again that statement is general isn't it, is what you believe.
 
Soulforged said:
welsh said:
Honestly, the terrorism thing is just stupid.
I'm not sure if you're refering to me, if you're, then that's not what I said, and if what you're arguing is that the tibetan regime is not despotic and brings order through terror then you're mistaken, and that's exactly what they're going to do if they regain autonomy because... let me quote you:

I think that's pretty stupid.

First off, I have not argued for a free Tibet, but have argued for greater autonomy for Tibet. As far as I can see the Tibetan independence is off the table. In fact, I would argue that would be a bad thing for Tibet. Sadly, Tibet is a weak country stuck between India and China, so someone would have to fill it as politics hates a vacuum.

What is greater autonomy- a chance for the Tibetans to sustain their faith and beliefs without interruption from the Chinese government? Chinese oversight over policies, a more in-direct of colonialism that China currently exercises? Sufficient influence over Tibet that the Chinese security and economic concerns are satisfied? I don't think that's too hard.

Instead China refuses to negotiate.

Of course the danger of that is that if China allows for a different ideology to exist, than the CCP's own hegemony is put to question. Lose hegemony and you lose power.

You think that the Tibetans would, if they were independent, undertake a campaign of terror to impose power, much like the Taliban in Afghanistan? I'm glad your crystal ball is working out for you. I suspect that's a lot of Chinese propaganda that has little substance.

I don't know what the Tibetans would do if they had independence. I know they were isolationist and didn't like outsiders. I have not argued for support Tibetan Buddhism as a philosophy or a religion. Personally, I am not interested in becoming a Buddhist monk and think that theocracy is a bad idea, but then again, I'm against politicizing religion.

I think the Tibetan Buddhists have a pretty good history for being a peaceful people who generally want to be left alone. I don't see the Tibetans as planning an international campaign of terror or as being a rogue state for a terrorist strategy that seeks to attack targets abroad. Mostly, I see the Tibetans spending way too much time on issues of Buddhism and devotion.

One religion or one ideology is just another institutionalized form of bias. Would the Tibetan repress or terrorize those who don't share their faith? Would it be worse than what China does now? I doubt it, not with China on their border.

Was I referring to you? In reviewing your post- yep. That would be you.

Are you arguing that the Tibetans are the next Taliban? If so, then yes, that's pretty weak justification for support China's repression of Tibet.

We may say that Tibetans were bad people for attacking the Chinese. Except, that the Tibetans have been under the heel of the Chinese for 50+ years. That's the cause of the riots. Sorry, but China has made some bad mistakes and that's what led to the riots.

Seriously, if I saw Chinese soldiers stomping on some poor monk, I might get a little pissed off too.
 
Srsly, I'd be satisfied if the Chinese government would just take what they need from Tibet and let them live their lives. Just don't hurt\kill them for not loving China and wanting to be Buddhists.
 
welsh said:
First off, I have not argued for a free Tibet, but have argued for greater autonomy for Tibet. As far as I can see the Tibetan independence is off the table. In fact, I would argue that would be a bad thing for Tibet. Sadly, Tibet is a weak country stuck between India and China, so someone would have to fill it as politics hates a vacuum.
I've noted that you didn't argue for a free Tibet but since you didn't answer my questions about autonomy I moved on assuming that. Are you against its independence because you feel that it won't survive for long or because you believe the same I do?
What is greater autonomy- a chance for the Tibetans to sustain their faith and beliefs without interruption from the Chinese government? Chinese oversight over policies, a more in-direct of colonialism that China currently exercises? Sufficient influence over Tibet that the Chinese security and economic concerns are satisfied? I don't think that's too hard.
I really don't know how hard it's, but regarding your main points:
Freedom of religion: As far as I know the chinese State officially protects freedom of religion, the government simply seems to enforce a very rigid vigilance upon its practices. But wheter it does or no, are you suggesting that a more flexible policy should be implemented for one of the many chinese communities? Because that would be unrealistic, it will generate similar claims all over the land, claims that the State might not be willing to accept. Even so tibetans are buddhists aren't they?
Colonialism: I don't know if what China currently imposes on that territory is a form of colonialism, and what you suggest by what I read as a "more indirect form of colonialism" is unclear.
Influence: That's a mayor point, but one so broad that it begs the question: What is it that the chinese consider necessary to feel secure and economically satisfied?
Instead China refuses to negotiate.
Seriously, how many States have you known that were willing to negotiate their own authority over their own territory?
Of course the danger of that is that if China allows for a different ideology to exist, than the CCP's own hegemony is put to question. Lose hegemony and you lose power.
Then you're answering your question here, that's how hard it's.
You think that the Tibetans would, if they were independent, undertake a campaign of terror to impose power, much like the Taliban in Afghanistan? I'm glad your crystal ball is working out for you. I suspect that's a lot of Chinese propaganda that has little substance.
It isn't propaganda and it isn't going to be a campaing, it's going to be a return to the roots. As you said: you should act according to your ideals, your beliefs. Those beliefs are strong and the Lama wants to return to his rightful place and impose his rule again, that's what they did before China and that's what they are going to do after. The truth is that the ancient regime was an archaic form of despotism in which the head ruler had a set of advisors and was considered a demigod, for example, if you looked at him without his permission your eyeballs were removed. Chinese rule is no more cruel than that. I doubt that in the event of their independence the new generations of tibetans are just going to accept the ancient form of government without revolting, or that the international community isn't going to rain over them, but that doesn't mean that the Lama does not want his rightful place again or that he thinks that's the best thing for his ex-people.
Would the Tibetan repress or terrorize those who don't share their faith?
The point is that it's exactly because the same tibetans shared a single faith connected to their politics that they suffered like they did in the past.
Are you arguing that the Tibetans are the next Taliban? If so, then yes, that's pretty weak justification for support China's repression of Tibet.
I don't like this thing of choosing the lesser evil, but China is, in any case, the lesser one between the two choices. And no I never compared tibetans with the Taliban, you misunderstood my posts, read again above.
We may say that Tibetans were bad people for attacking the Chinese. Except, that the Tibetans have been under the heel of the Chinese for 50+ years. That's the cause of the riots. Sorry, but China has made some bad mistakes and that's what led to the riots.
I never said that tibetan people were bad, and I usually don't deal in absolutes, I don't know them, but I think in their position I'll be miserable.
Seriously, if I saw Chinese soldiers stomping on some poor monk, I might get a little pissed off too.
Things aren't pretty, they never were, specially for the tibetans.

EDIT: Spelling
 
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