Well in response.
@ Starseeker- This nationalism thing is nuts. You talk to a mainland Chinese about an independent Tibet and its like you're asking them for a kidney. Seriously, the country has been been independent for 60 years.
60 years! We're talking three generations of people have been born in an independent Tibet?
Why is this important- nationalism.
Honeslty, I have always suspected that the CCP loves Tibet. If the CCP were to face serious domestic trouble, it need only rattle sabres over Tibet to get the Chinese mainlanders excited.
Its the "rally around the flag" problem. The same reason I suspect that Bush won in 2004 despite him being one of the worst presidents in US history.
And lets not forget, nationalism is a dangerous thing. Afterall, it was nationalism that helped contribute to World War 1. One of my students is talking about Vietnamese nationalism against China. But I have seen the same thing in China, in Japan and Korea. I've seen this dicussed among the overseas community.
Koreans hate Chinese and Japanese
Japanese hate Chinese and Koreans
Chinese hate Koreans and Japanese.
Vietnamese mostly hate Chinese, probably Cambodians too.
It's fucking crazy that people hate other people just because they're different nationalities. Part of this has to do with a false sense of superiority and I think part of it has to do with indoctrination over years from both the state and society.
Are you suprised, Starseeker, that its followed the Chinese Overseas community to Toronto.
Have you seen the film Before Rain- an academy award nominee (maybe a winner) about the violence in former Yugoslavia. The film is told in three parts, one part involve violence occuring in Europe by people who have left former Yugoslavia, but haven't left their nationalism behind. Overall, a good flick.
But yes, we have the same thing in the US. I've been teaching for ten years and have seen enough of this that I don't think it will ever end.
And the kick in the pants, is that, generally speaking, American born Chinese, Japanese and Koreans continue to be alientated by the very cultures they consider themselves aligned too.
Surprising? NOt really. My folks are Europeans and for a lot of years (until I was about 25) I thought of myself as German and Swiss. But when I was 25 I came to realize that culturally I am something of a mutt- part European, but mostly American. And, honestly, I like being an American largley because at the end of the day, its a label of individuality. This is a country of mutts- and that's pretty cool.
With regard to Tibet- you're the second person in two days who has suggested to me that the riots in Tibet were actually a device used by the CCP. They let the riots go in order to see who they needed to target, to flush out the protestors, and then repress. Then the riots got out of control. In foreign policy, this might be considered an unsual case of "blowback".
@ Darkcorp- Thank you for granting me the moral high ground.
You are sticking with the "you did became industrial an strong and did terrible things therefore you should look the other way when China does."
Bullshit.
I'll give you two reasons.
History, which you've been using a lot. Let's recall that on at least two occasions in the last 150 years countries have tried to become "great powers" by doing many of the kind of terrible things that colonizing countries did for hundreds of years.
Example 1- Italy and Germany- both countries were late developers, late nationalizers and only consolidated their states in the last half of the nineteenth century. Both countries suffered from nationalism that led to war. Both countries eventually went to war in order to achieve "great power status"
Example 2- Soviet Union- arising out of World War 2, the country had the single largest military in the war. Credit goes to USSR for winning the land war in Europe- they did the lion's share of the work and paid the price. But once in power they ruled by a virtual empire over most of Asia, eventually bankrupting themselves over an ineffective economic policy but not before doing some pretty heinous things to a lot of people.
Given your logic- should the US and Europe have turned away merely because its historical hands are dirty?
Which is the second problem in your argument. History survives most vividly for those who use it for their own gain. The Chinese want to point fingers at the West and say, "Hey, you do terrible things too." Yes.
Do two wrongs make a right?
Does one person's excuse another's?
The Tibetan terrorist thing is bullshit, and I don't think that the slender possibility that Tibet would be used as a staging ground for terrorist strikes against China, is enough to overcome the certainty of the continued abused perpetuated by the CCP.
(@Soulforge- this is for you too. Its still bullshit because you assume a static view of history. Are the Tibetan buddhists today the same as when they ruled their country. I seriously doubt they could even rollback history to that time. I don't believe current Dalai Lama wants that. History may teach us about the future, but it doesn't necessary determine the future either).
Do I want a strong China? OK, honestly, I would much rather have a stronger Europe than a stronger China. I would also like to see ties between the US and Europe grow stronger than to see ties between China and Russia grow stronger. But I would be much happier with a stronger China if it wasn't ruled by despots.
I am not a big fan of despots or authoritarian regimes or facism. And yes, China is a facist state in all but name.
Why no despots? Because despots have two bad habits. (1) they are predatory. One function of the state is redistribute wealth. How it redistributes wealth depends on the preferences of the ruling party. IN our case one group of Chinese, the party and about 20% of the population, gets to eat most of the wealth, while the rest of society continues to starve.
(2) There is no accountability (which is in th ename despot). THey are not beholded to anyone other then themselves, thus allowing them to do what they want, when they want. Darkcorp, you criticized Mao. But now you have a richer and more powerful group of wouldbe Mao's in power. Is that an improvement?
Do I want to see the CCP go down? Yes. Its a tyrannical regime. Furthermore, I think the absence of a CCP or a similar authoritarian establishment, might be good for the country.
Why? I have carefully made an argument based on the need for the CCP to sustain its hegemony, and how the pursuit of that hegemony has led to the impoverishment of hundreds of millions.
I have also pointed out how investment that helps keep the CCP in office might better go to other countries in the world whose people are in desperate need of a better quality of life and whose governments aren't such bastards.
Would I like to see a civil war in China? Honestly no. But then I am not sure how the CCP would fall but for civil war. But whether it goes down by war or by a more peaceful transition, sooner or later the CCP will go down.
Why do I say this- All despots do. France under the Monarchy, Spain under Ferdinand and Isabel? Why do despots do- because of their predatory behavior and lack of accountability.
Do I think a civil war would lead to a nuclear exchange? No, not really. What woud the US and Europe do- cut trade? Ok. Is that basis for war? If the Chinese decide that it is, than they are using nuclear weapons for coercion, and once give you in to that, then there's no stop to it.
Would the CHinese threaten nuclear war? Maybe. ANd how should the US respond? By telling China to fuck off. We've also got nuclear weapons and we shouldn't be threatened. The US stood toe to toe against the Soviet Union and those guys were bad asses. If the Chinese want to play that game, then fine.
But in a civil war, would the Chinese use nuclear weapons against their own people? Probably not. Then again, with the Chinese you just don't know.
Would they start a war with Taiwan to prevent a civil war? Maybe. Would they carry through with it? Maybe.
But I see no reason to wait and let China grow stronger and thus more willing to decide the end-game.
The Chinese like to play a "chicken game"- is Taiwan worth Los Angeles. The answer is yes. It has been yes for 50 years and continues to be yes today.
And honestly, if the Chinese are willing to make that threat, than I see no reason why I shouldn't fucking loath those motherfuckers and dream of the day when they fall.
Sorry, but at the end of the day, I'm American and this is the country I am loyal too.
But I'm not talking war. I'm not even talking trade sanctions.
I am talking about boycotting the Olympics.
Because this way the Chinese have to get the message that they can do what they want in their own countries, but there is a price to be paid.
If my wife and I were friends with a couple, and we had an invitation to go to their kid's birthday party. But then a few weeks before the party, I found out that these parents regularly beat the crap of their child, I wouldn't go. I wouldn't let my kids go, and I would probably call the cops.
China is throwing a party called the Olympics. We're friendly with them, they are sometimes friendly to us (ignoring the rhetoric and the spying). We'd like our kids (athletes) play with their kids. But now we find out that they like to beat some of their own kids.
So yeah, I don't send my kids to play with the Chinese.
And if the CCP doesn't like that, it can go fuck itself.
Because this is not just an issue of China, but an issue of who we are and what we're willing to tolerate. Sorry, China, but you ruined the party and my kids and yours won't play.
I can't foretell the future. Would China be pissed? Maybe. Fuck 'em. WOuld they try to hurt us? Maybe. Fuck 'em. Should we continue to do business with China as we have- no. Fuck'em.
There are a lot of other countries with whom we can do business and who would appreciate our attention than China.
And, if the world closed its doors to China, maybe because it wants China to play by the rules of a game as China promised to but then cheated, then tough shit on China. Would the CCP fall? Hopefully. and if so, then we're back in business. And if not? Fuck 'em.
As for your comments-
(1) I doubt that China under pressure and faced with a regime transition or civil war, would use nuclear weapons against other states or its own people. The Russians didn't when the communist system fell. Why would China? What would that get them except irradiated.
Would I like to see Cuba fall? I would like to see the Castros out of power and a new government achieved. Cuba is not a threat to the US and, despite its poverty, Cubans also enjoy high levels of health care and education. I think Cuba offers a lot of promise. Also, human rights abuses mean something different when you are talking about the numbers involved.
As for Native Americans- there are more native Americans in the US now then at any time in history. Do I expect them to rise up? Well if they do, that means we're not going to their casinos.
Now that I have answered your questions, let's stay on the topic at hand. And enough of the "Your history is bloody too." I know our history is bloody. I know its bloodier than you think it is.
But most of it is just history. What worries me is today and what we do tomorrow.
Darkcorp- if you don't want to be seen as defending the CCP, then top defending its actions as being morally acceptable.
As yourself- is it morally acceptable to you that the CCP does what it does to stay in power.
Trust me, the CCP doesn't need your defense. It has plenty of people it pays to do that.
