Chris Avellone's Fallout 4 Wishlist

[Izual]

You can refuse to accept anything new, but personally I'm glad there was actually some innovation taken in New Vegas

No, I can make the difference between what I hate because of the general FNV environment or because it is stupid.
Latin-speaking, evil, melee, disguised legionaries are stupid.
Mr House and his robot army, however, is not stupid. I don't like it, but I can understand how and why it has been done and it would not seem strange if it was in Fallout 1/2.
Another innovation that was done well in Vegas is about the Khans, or Jacobstown maybe.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I think Vegas would have been a better game without the Legion. Though it would have required a different story of course, since without them the game lacks a villain.

 

[Surf Solar]

I would have been fine with the legion if not for their ridicolous attire, those roman references etc.

 

[warsaw]

I think Vegas would have been a better game without the Legion. Though it would have required a different story of course, since without them the game lacks a villain.

Actually, I think a straight 'Mr. House vs NCR' story would have been pretty interesting and allowed for a lot more political intrigue.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I would have been fine with the legion if not for their ridicolous attire, those roman references etc.

even without that overdone roman refence, they still are not much more then a "lulz" villain, Ceasar never gave me the feeling that I am talking here with a strong, intelligent and charismatic leader or something like that. But I have to say, that to write a character in such position isn't easy, because you simply can not lose the negative aspect slavery has. How do you want to seriously explain someone, that "slavery" or the stuff the Legion actually is embracing would be a good thing? You simply can not really sell the normal gamer which hopefully has SOME education that what the legion is preaching or following would be a "decent" alternative. And this is in my eyes a huge problem with the Legion, particularly as I don't think the quality of their NPCs is as coherent like with the NCR, where you have a lot of facets giving them as "faction" a lot of depth. Something which both House and the Legion in my eyes lack, the issue is not so much that House would be "bad" or the Legion not much more then a villain-faction, they mainly simply lack any shades and there is not enough interaction. I am only talking about the quality of the factions here, not if I agree with their ideas/goals. I just have the feeling that the NCR is a lot more involved in the area of Vegas, and thus giving you more chance to interact with them, showing many different characters and groups.

 

[Earth]

I think Vegas would have been a better game without the Legion. Though it would have required a different story of course, since without them the game lacks a villain.

Actually, I think a straight 'Mr. House vs NCR' story would have been pretty interesting and allowed for a lot more political intrigue.

Interesting points. I like that idea of it being Mr House vs NCR, Both are incredibly grey compared to the Legion. Fair enough (though I still do like a Legion concept (but I agree, maybe drop the uniforms. No self-respecting intellectual like Caesar would have worn what he was wearing)

Still, it's not like Fallout hasn't had a history of cartoonish villains. Though the Master is more of a tragic character than anything, he's still the cartoonish evil monster leading an army of evil monsters (who I wouldn't be surprised by if they do eat babies) and of course, the Enclave are genocidal purist Nazis.

 

[Tagaziel]

Interesting points. I like that idea of it being Mr House vs NCR, Both are incredibly grey compared to the Legion. Fair enough (though I still do like a Legion concept (but I agree, maybe drop the uniforms. No self-respecting intellectual like Caesar would have worn what he was wearing)

Why? The Legion is purposefully made to stand out and have a look that is not seen elsewhere. I like them because they're different than the usual Putting on the Reich seen in most games.

 

[Izual]

I think Vegas would have been a better game without the Legion. Though it would have required a different story of course, since without them the game lacks a villain.

Well, I see the Legion as a retarded Enclave. The Enclave was the first real antagonist in the Fallout games, and they were really mad, and evil, and stupid. I mean, every player knew that killing them was the normal thing to do (as opposed to the Master in FO1). The Legion is just like the Enclave, but with a background that doesn't fit the Fallout universe. It's horrible.

Also, since we're talking about how you can't present slavery as acceptable... Reminded me of this thread I've read yesterday. I had lots of fun and fear.

 

[DemonNick]

I'm sorry to have to play the role of the bitter hater today (Surf isn't here to do it instead of me), but I strongly disagree with you sir.

More Legion is the last thing Fallout needs. We'll already need a few years and a few games to forget about the nonsense created by Obsidian and bring back some credibility to Fallout universe.

Jesus. Evil, baby-eating, roman baddies. What were they thinking?

Probably it had something to do with the recurring theme of the inability of people to move past the structures, images and ideas of the old world. Caesar is consistently depicted as a lunatic, to the point that they had to strip out Arcade's systematic demolition of his megalomaniacal ideology.

I think it certainly fit because Fallout is, to an extent, all about nonsensical, amoral lunatics. Look at the Master, whose entire plan falls apart if you just look at an autopsy tape. Or the Enclave, which is basically the world's shittiest, most evil Vault with a pale, bald, slightly moist looking 'president' who comes off as completely pathetic while still being genocidal.

The Legion makes sense. It's Caesar using fragmented images of the old world that are, as he says, extremely different from and counter to the images that most people have assimilated of the old world. They're shocking and strange, and it forms a good counterweight to the decadent but similarly barbaric Republic. I mean, the Republic conscripts soldiers, Republican soldiers and civilians still use sex-slaves and forced labour (although to a more limited extent). They make sense on all kinds of thematic and aesthetic levels.

They're also not really the baddies. I don't think New Vegas has baddies. Every major faction has a handful of decent people awash on a sea of monstrous assholes. The inability of any institution to completely rise above the cruelty and inhumanity of its members is a major running theme in the game that we see with every faction. See? Themes. Themes everywhere.

 

[Earth]

Well, I see the Legion as a retarded Enclave. The Enclave was the first real antagonist in the Fallout games, and they were really mad, and evil, and stupid. I mean, every player knew that killing them was the normal thing to do (as opposed to the Master in FO1). The Legion is just like the Enclave, but with a background that doesn't fit the Fallout universe. It's horrible.

I'll agree that the Legion wasn't executed well (again, not Obsidian's fault, 18 months) but I still like the concept and don't see why it doesn't fit into Fallout. The series is about how people adapt to the new world isn't it? (or have i been wrong the last 6 or so years? Knowing my luck probably) But if that is it, I don't see how a guy reading about the Roman Empire and adapting a society to their ways is unfeasible. Silly maybe, but not impossible, certainly not "horrible"

(My liking of them doesn't necessarily mean they were needed in New Vegas. NCR vs House, like Crni Vuk said, could've worked really well on their own. Legion could have acted as a sequel enemy, if they ever did make New Vegas 2) Fuck it I dunno. "What if's" piss me off.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

The Legion is just like the Enclave, but with a background that doesn't fit the Fallout universe. It's horrible.

This I don't get. You praise the Great Khans, a faction molded in the image of an ancient civilization, but at the same time say that the Legion doesn't fit the fallout universe, despite also being a faction molded in the image of an ancient civilization. What am I missing here?

 

[Jubal Quintus]

The Enclave was the first real antagonist in the Fallout games, and they were really mad, and evil, and stupid. I mean, every player knew that killing them was the normal thing to do (as opposed to the Master in FO1).

I'm sorry, but comparing the Enclave to the Master is to compare the Master's Army at Mariposa to President Richardson. The mutant army was THE antagonistic force of Fallout, to say otherwise is to pretty much disregard Fallout for Fallout 2.

 

[Tagaziel]

I'll agree that the Legion wasn't executed well (again, not Obsidian's fault, 18 months) but I still like the concept and don't see why it doesn't fit into Fallout. The series is about how people adapt to the new world isn't it? (or have i been wrong the last 6 or so years? Knowing my luck probably) But if that is it, I don't see how a guy reading about the Roman Empire and adapting a society to their ways is unfeasible. Silly maybe, but not impossible, certainly not "horrible"

How many times does the game *and* its developers have to state that Caesar isn't rebuilding the Roman Empire until people understand this? Caesar is not building a Roman Empire. He's building a totalitarian state based on fascist values, using the trappings of the Roman Empire to mire it in language, distinct aesthetics, and practices that are completely alien to the uneducated masses of the wasteland.

Caesar uses bits and pieces of history that fit his purpose and discards those that don't, much like other totalitarian states.

 

[Earth]

How many times does the game *and* its developers have to state that Caesar isn't rebuilding the Roman Empire until people understand this? Caesar is not building a Roman Empire. He's building a totalitarian state based on fascist values, using the trappings of the Roman Empire to mire it in language, distinct aesthetics, and practices that are completely alien to the uneducated masses of the wasteland.

Caesar uses bits and pieces of history that fit his purpose and discards those that don't, much like other totalitarian states.

I knew that. I was just explaining that a guy picking up a few ideas from a History book isn't stupid. There were plenty of things I noticed that were very un-Roman about the Legion (example being the slave-like existance of women)

 

[Tagaziel]

He isn't "picking up a few ideas." You're implying some kind of ad hoc, directionless development. Caesar's plan for the Legion is very focused and deliberate, not based on "picking up a few ideas" by a careful study of all materials he had access to.

 

[Crni Vuk]

and yet, it would most probably all fall apart in one day after his death.

 

[Kyuu]

More Legion is the last thing Fallout needs. We'll already need a few years and a few games to forget about the nonsense created by Obsidian and bring back some credibility to Fallout universe.

This is a joke, right? Or did I accidentally stumble into some alternate reality where Fallout 3 never existed?

and yet, it would most probably all fall apart in one day after his death.

Yeah, but... isn't that true of most organizations built by and around a charismatic figurehead?

 

[Muskeato]

I'm sorry to have to play the role of the bitter hater today (Surf isn't here to do it instead of me), but I strongly disagree with you sir.

More Legion is the last thing Fallout needs. We'll already need a few years and a few games to forget about the nonsense created by Obsidian and bring back some credibility to Fallout universe.

Jesus. Evil, baby-eating, roman baddies. What were they thinking?

What?

 

[valcik]

There were plenty of things I noticed that were very un-Roman about the Legion ..

Yup. I'm sure Romans didn't shave their legs, unlike the Legion members.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Yeah, but... isn't that true of most organizations built by and around a charismatic figurehead?

well, The Soviet Union managed to survive another 50 years after Stalins Death though. But we are going here in to something that I guess, isn't easy to discuss. It is a lot about theories and "what if" cases. Kinda silly to talk about that.

Thing is, I never had the feeling that cesare was this cunning, intelligent leader figure but just another savage with a badly narrative. I enjoyed the Khans more a lot more, because they actually had decent writing and had a REAL grudge with the NCR.

I have no doubt that the Legion could have been an excelent faction with a better visual presentation (that armor ... oh boy ... in concept art this might have been nice, but with this game engine ... just ugly), and actually a much more fleshed out background where you would see more then just their camps and soldiers, they could have been a fantastic mirror to the NCR. But the way how the game shows them, they have never ever been really some option for me. There simply is no way how you can present slavery as a positive trait.