Classified US military video depicting slaying of civilians

[Bal-Sagoth]

I firmly believe that professional soldiers could (and should!) be capable of judging a situation like that objectively without sounding like 16 year old gamers. I'm not a pacifist or anything, but if you're going to kill someone you might show some damn respect, or at least self-respect. And I know people who could beat the average GI-Joe (or Marine ) like a baby seal, but would never steep to the level of intelligence and lack of empathy shown in that video.
Lastly, I can't really see how this could be called fighting, the guys were sitting there and pressing buttons, they weren't fighting.

And I know people who could beat the people like a baby seal who you say could beat the Marines and Soldiers like a baby seal!!!11!!. What a silly thing to say.

There is nothing wrong with how they are acting in the video. Go watch random videos of bombs being dropped on strongholds or Arty being called in, the explosion is always followed by cheering and cries along the lines of "yeah fucking die Hadjis!".

It has nothing to do with intelligence, I know some extremely sharp fellows who are Infantrymen in the Marine Corps and could have had any job they wanted based on ASVAB line scores, they to engage in said behavior you are scolding. Taking pleasure in ones work should be encouraged.

And on a side note I took the liberty of correcting you and capitalizing Marine.

 

[Blakut]

I firmly believe that professional soldiers could (and should!) be capable of judging a situation like that objectively without sounding like 16 year old gamers.

What you all seem to ignore is that the soldiers asked for clearance to engage every time. They gave directions to rescue/clearing ground forces.

I'm not defending everything the US military does, but those guys were not wearing any kind of uniforms (which is a very big deal, just if you were wondering) and the "rescue van" last time i checked wasn't white with a red cross or crescent.

No one acts like everythig they do would end up on you tube or that every action would be judged by millions world wide. If they did, then they'd be dead. Cause the enemy sure doesn't care that they are taking children into a war zone or that they aren't wearing any uniforms.

And another thing:

Don't the guys hear the gunship flying around? The rounds are supersonic, so they can't run until it's too late. But surely some engine noise or contrails could be visible?

 

[Moloch Horridus]

And what the hell is wrong with these soldiers? They think they playing COD4 Modern Warfare? Man, you are KILLING people. Not NPCs! Dead bodies are "nice"? Where is your psychiatrist?

This is starting to get fucking retarded. I hate to burst your bubble but the guys in the video are not a minority, go spend time around enlisted Marines in the 03XX field, this is how the majority act and talk.
.

True, that is really, and I mean REALLY retarded. No matter who or what you are, not having any regard for the life of another human being is sick. Psychopathic.
I don't give rats ass if you're soldier, killing innocent people is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter if you do it because someone "higher" tells you to, or you use your own "judgement" to make the decision. Or take your orders from your "God". You pull the trigger, you're sick.
The way these assholes fire the first hellfire missile just when an innocent bystander is passing the building shows that civilians mean nothing to them. They're robotic idiots pulling the trigger "because it is their job". Bullshit, they are worst kind of raving mad animals there is.

 

[Blakut]

How sick is this then, the western society that exists because of its soldiers? Everything from rocknroll to free internet exists because some sick bastard shot another one better in the face.

What does this make you and me?

I'll tell you. Just human.

How do we stop this. I don't know, but i don't think one side is going to drop its guard before the other.

 

[Kilus]

They were under fire, they asked permission, they received permission and returned fire on what they thought to be a hostile group. Hesitating in every engagement would cost the lives of American Marines and Soldiers. Confirming every target several times over is not a luxury the fighting men of our nation have in a war.

Better a dead soldier than a dead civilian. Also properly confirming a target was a luxury the soldiers in the helicopter had and yet chose not to.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Srebrenica Massacre

We should leave this out. It has actualy nothing to do with the incident mentioned in this topic.

The one is more or less a accident while the last is a bit more complex then just that.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

I'm not really a war historian, but I have read some literature by real soldiers who fought in real wars. I can mention "All Quiet On The West Front" for instance, by a true common soldier who fought in WWI.

No way dude, All Quiet on the Western Front is a work of fiction, written by someone who never faced combat.
Real soldiers who fought in real war?
A better comparison from the same war would be Ernst Jungers' In Stahlgewittern (AKA Storm of Steel in English). A real soldier's memoirs of WWI, a pretty graphic, unapologetic, even unabashedly enthusiastic descriptions of combat. The guy loved what he did! Great book BTW.

And generally the soldiers are depicted as treating each other "respectfully", as far as it's possible while being enemies. In older literary sources from wars fought in for instance Anglo Saxon England, Norse Scandinavia, etc.,

Hmmm....yet when Europe fought an eastern enemy like America is now, things weren't exactly that gentlemanly were they? Crusades much?
America isn't fighting the Normans circa 1600. In the last 100 years America has fought some pretty determined, nasty enemies who have no regard for your sentimental notions of Civilized European War. Imperial Japan, N. Korea/China, Viet Nam, all this shit in the M.E. You're dealing with a whole different breed of animal when it comes to the east vs. the west.

there is little eveidence for this kind of juvenile behavior, and on most occasions where it occur it is disencouraged.

From more accounts that might tend to portray the authors and their comrades sympatheticly?
This can't be compared to the cold objectivity of a camera's lens.

 

[Dragula]

The crusades were awesome, so where the Balkan wars.

Damn Ottomans.

 

[Shoveler]

Srebrenica Massacre

We should leave this out. It has actualy nothing to do with the incident mentioned in this topic.

The one is more or less a accident while the last is a bit more complex then just that.

It's relevant to him portraying the UN/NATO having better judgment/morals than the U.S. military. Bad judgment/accidents can happen anywhere at anytime to anyone, regardless of which side of an imaginary geographical line you come from.

It happens more to U.S. personnel due to our involvement in several theaters at the same time. The more personnel you have in action at one time the more chance for something of this nature to happen. Compound all of that with the fact that we are fighting an enemy that wears civilian clothing always. There is no standing army, just pockets of dudes that surround themselves with civilians.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

They were under fire, they asked permission, they received permission and returned fire on what they thought to be a hostile group. Hesitating in every engagement would cost the lives of American Marines and Soldiers. Confirming every target several times over is not a luxury the fighting men of our nation have in a war.

Better a dead soldier than a dead civilian. Also properly confirming a target was a luxury the soldiers in the helicopter had and yet chose not to.

Fuck no, what kind of moronic logic do you follow? I pray that you are and have always been a civilian where such ideas have never actually managed to apply to real life situations.

I don't know how the Army does it but I imagine it is not much different from the Marines as combat builds brotherhood no matter what the branch is. When I am deployed if I am ever faced with a situation of choosing the lifes of foreign civilians or my fellow Marines you can bet your ass I will be protecting my Marines hands down everytime, those are your brothers, you don't give two shits about some durka durka rag head when compared to your fellow Marines.

Yes yes, I know the poor civilians and so on and so fourth, but I say bullshit to that and I am just admitting the truth. Go ask random 0311s whose life they value more, a Marines or an Afghani civilian. I think we both know what the majority will say.

Mind you I leave for Boot Camp April 12th, normally people don't have such passion about these things as I do until after Boot when the indoctrination is complete, I cannot imagine what kind of power trip ill be on once I earn the title.

 

[AlexAB]

Am I missing something? I have been fuming because of this video since yesterday, but after seeing so many people try to explain the actions of the soldiers, I went and rewatched it. All I can see is a bunch of bloodthirsty soldiers firing on clear unarmed civilians? Unarmed civilians that don't even acknowledge them until they are fired at. I mean, the soldiers try to justify it with claims that they are carrying AKs, but it is ridiculous.

If they had claimed some kind of small weapon, I might agree that this was just a mistake, but there is no way the cameras and other equipment could have been mistaken for a rifle. And if the soldier is calling the camera an rpg, then really, I can't help but think this was just a way they believed they could get away with shooting someone. Seems like the only thing that is left to determine is whether they were suffering from some kind of psychotic delusion so we know if they should be locked up in jail or in a psychiatric institution.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Srebrenica Massacre

We should leave this out. It has actualy nothing to do with the incident mentioned in this topic.

The one is more or less a accident while the last is a bit more complex then just that.

It's relevant to him portraying the UN/NATO having better judgment/morals than the U.S. military. Bad judgment/accidents can happen anywhere at anytime to anyone, regardless of which side of an imaginary geographical line you come from.

It happens more to U.S. personnel due to our involvement in several theaters at the same time. The more personnel you have in action at one time the more chance for something of this nature to happen. Compound all of that with the fact that we are fighting an enemy that wears civilian clothing always. There is no standing army, just pockets of dudes that surround themselves with civilians.

Just that Sebrenecia had nothing to do with a bad judgdemt of the NATO/UN since they never wanted to get in there in the first place. They never have sent a full fighting force and many havnt been very happy about any involvment in a civil war with ground forces.

If we think from outside the decision to do nothing and thus just be a puppet of the serbian General that he shows off to the media might seem strange. But if you ask your self it was the only thing that NATO officers/general could have done. Those people wanted home they didnt wanted to fight a hopeless fight with just a few troops. I wish they would have done it and would have tried to stand their ground. It would have forced the NATO to engange. But you cant blame them or the NATO for acting like humans which have the wish to get home to their families. Alive.

There have been many places like Sebrenecia in former Yugoslavia before the NATO decided to get in there. Though it never bothered anyone if those peopole killed each other. Even after the Russians gave their OK they would not interfere in any NATO operations.

meh the balkan is a mess and I am just glad that Germans and other Nations are on guard at least in Kosovo now.

Fuck no, what kind of moronic logic do you follow? I pray that you are and have always been a civilian where such ideas have never actually managed to apply to real life situations.

I think the idea behind it might be that a soldier is usualy a professional and trained person. I remember from my time in the Firebrigade when they told us that first you save the civilian, then your comrade and then your self. Why civlians first ? Cause thats your job. A good soldier is not only responsible for his comrades or equipment but also for civilians. What ever bullshit a commander or the military might tell. But your job is as well to fight for civlians. Not just killing (armed civilians are a different case but those dont count as usual civlians anymore and are classified as a form of combatants).

 

[Miwenskee]

They were under fire, they asked permission, they received permission and returned fire on what they thought to be a hostile group. Hesitating in every engagement would cost the lives of American Marines and Soldiers. Confirming every target several times over is not a luxury the fighting men of our nation have in a war.

Better a dead soldier than a dead civilian. Also properly confirming a target was a luxury the soldiers in the helicopter had and yet chose not to.

Fuck no, what kind of moronic logic do you follow? I pray that you are and have always been a civilian where such ideas have never actually managed to apply to real life situations.

I don't know how the Army does it but I imagine it is not much different from the Marines as combat builds brotherhood no matter what the branch is. When I am deployed if I am ever faced with a situation of choosing the lifes of foreign civilians or my fellow Marines you can bet your ass I will be protecting my Marines hands down everytime, those are your brothers, you don't give two shits about some durka durka rag head when compared to your fellow Marines.

Yes yes, I know the poor civilians and so on and so fourth, but I say bullshit to that and I am just admitting the truth. Go ask random 0311s whose life they value more, a Marines or an Afghani civilian. I think we both know what the majority will say.

Mind you I leave for Boot Camp April 12th, normally people don't have such passion about these things as I do until after Boot when the indoctrination is complete, I cannot imagine what kind of power trip ill be on once I earn the title.

I suppose you are right... i didnt see you give any comments about his second statement though...

 

[UncannyGarlic]

The identification of the people on the ground as hostiles was a bad call, I can see how someone using that crappy video feed could think that a few people down there were armed but not the entire group. I'd also think that they wouldn't be using the video feed that has been posted, I'd think that they would be looking at it through some high powered lenses and in colour, which makes a difference. I could see how they could maybe justify shooting the first group but shooting that van was clearly the shooting of unarmed people rendering medical aid to the wounded, regardless of whether or not they were marked medical personnel.

I watched the short version and a couple of them said some dick things (laughing at running over a body, wanting an excuse to shoot the wounded guy, the over eager gunner in general) but most of the personnel involved seemed reasonable, excluding the horrid judgment calls of course.

I think the big cause for concern is less the event than it is the military response to and handling of the event. Given the amount of ground troops present, the military should know whether or not those shot were armed or not and all involved should definitely be reprimanded for shooting up that van. The way the military has treated the incident has been bs and it feels like they are trying to hide that they fucked up and shot unarmed civilians, including two journalists.

Bullshit, how easy it must be for you to sit there and say that when it is not you are safe at home typing away on a computer, you have no real idea what it is like for those Marines and Soldiers in these videos.

Mind you I leave for Boot Camp April 12th, normally people don't have such passion about these things as I do until after Boot when the indoctrination is complete, I cannot imagine what kind of power trip ill be on once I earn the title.

In other words, neither do you so you have no more field experience than him. Also, bragging about enjoying being indoctrinated by the military only damages your position when making judgment calls about their policies and attitudes as you are essentially admitting that you are accepting them without thought or question.

There is nothing wrong with how they are acting in the video. Go watch random videos of bombs being dropped on strongholds or Arty being called in, the explosion is always followed by cheering and cries along the lines of "yeah fucking die Hadjis!".

The same logic could be used to justify a quarter of servicewomen getting raped, it's classic appeal to tradition. As I said, most of the personnel seemed fine but there were a few who were a problem (most notably the gunner).

EDIT:

I think the idea behind it might be that a soldier is usualy a professional and trained person. I remember from my time in the Firebrigade when they told us that first you save the civilian, then your comrade and then your self. Why civlians first ? Cause thats your job. A good soldier is not only responsible for his comrades or equipment but also for civilians. What ever bullshit a commander or the military might tell. But your job is as well to fight for civlians. Not just killing (armed civilians are a different case but those dont count as usual civlians anymore and are classified as a form of combatants).

Even more so given that it's a nation building and peacekeeping operation with anti-insurgency elements rather than a "war" or more traditional military situation.

 

[aenemic]

There is nothing wrong with how they are acting in the video. Go watch random videos of bombs being dropped on strongholds or Arty being called in, the explosion is always followed by cheering and cries along the lines of "yeah fucking die Hadjis!".

It has nothing to do with intelligence, I know some extremely sharp fellows who are Infantrymen in the Marine Corps and could have had any job they wanted based on ASVAB line scores, they to engage in said behavior you are scolding. Taking pleasure in ones work should be encouraged.

so just because there are more idiots out there who find it exhilirating to kill people it's perfectly fine and nothing wrong about it?

it might not have anything to do with intelligence, but it has everything to do with empathy and respect for other peoples lives. and you clearly lack both.

taking pride and pleasure in ones job is one thing, but it should be for the right reasons. even I as a pacifist who despises war find it honorable to decide to go into battle and defend innocent lives and human rights. but one should never ever take pleasure in taking another persons life - if you do, there's something horribly wrong with you.

 

[Blakut]

I think a major issue here is the fear that the same soldiers that are now fighting an enemy might some day turn agains us.

I mean, i am not an american. I cannot think that America will alwaysbe friendly to all the countries or to my country all the time. So, of course, some people don't like the idea that someday the gunship might turn on them.

And seriously, the guys couldn't hear the helicopter circling around? WTF?

 

[Crni Vuk]

EDIT:

I think the idea behind it might be that a soldier is usualy a professional and trained person. I remember from my time in the Firebrigade when they told us that first you save the civilian, then your comrade and then your self. Why civlians first ? Cause thats your job. A good soldier is not only responsible for his comrades or equipment but also for civilians. What ever bullshit a commander or the military might tell. But your job is as well to fight for civlians. Not just killing (armed civilians are a different case but those dont count as usual civlians anymore and are classified as a form of combatants).

Even more so given that it's a nation building and peacekeeping operation with anti-insurgency elements rather than a "war" or more traditional military situation.

I think the US is a occupation force in the Iraq right now.

 

[Kilus]

Fuck no, what kind of moronic logic do you follow? I pray that you are and have always been a civilian where such ideas have never actually managed to apply to real life situations.

Soldiers jobs is to defend civilians. Killing Civilians invalidates that job.

 

[Miwenskee]

And seriously, the guys couldn't hear the helicopter circling around? WTF?

that helicopter was at least a mile away from the place, i think its more than natural no one reacted before it was too late... which is even another good reason for them not to engage... i mean come on, i personally consider the possibility that even when the van came they didn't have a clue what was happening, therefore i don't see how they were a potential danger.

Soldiers jobs is to defend civilians. Killing Civilians invalidates that job.

i don't think anyone could have said it better.

i'm really trying not to take a side here and to think logically. nobody could have been a 100% sure whether they were hostile or not, i guess this is my point, in that case there really was an opportunity for the soldiers to make sure what they were dealing with without actually risking their own lives... and then eventually attack.

 

[Blakut]

Soldiers jobs is to defend civilians. Killing Civilians invalidates that job.

Yeah, but those guys were civilians with guns. They don't wear uniforms. They deliberately bring children to battle and do ops in civilian territories. And then, the guys that kill them are the monsters...