Col. Ghaddafi dead

Surf Solar said:
So "just" because someone commits lots of crimes (he helped building up infrastructure and such in Libya too, I wonder when those rebels now will think about that?) it means we can shit all over the human rights and rules "we westerners" built our nations on? Amazing to see how fast people can just shrug off these things.

It doesn't mean that I can't understand the anger and so on, like you pointed out. But this is not the way to go.
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From what I read, Ghaddafi made Libya the bitch of foreigners. Libyans, according to my source (field reporter who was in Libya a few years back), are not qualified to operate the infrastructure of oil fields and other advanced tech in the country. All was done by foreigners on contract. Most of which fled the country.

And as much as I support human rights, being a lawyer, you must consider that Libya is a culture different from Europe.
 
Well, this is good. Now our peace troopers can go there and help them rebuild... or something. :smug:
 
Surf Solar said:
So "just" because someone commits lots of crimes (he helped building up infrastructure and such in Libya too, I wonder when those rebels now will think about that?)
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I've said, I don't know much about Gaddafi. I was speaking about dictators in general, much from my personal experience.

Surf Solar said:
it means we can shit all over the human rights and rules "we westerners" built our nations on? Amazing to see how fast people can just shrug off these things.
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Yes, we can shit all over it.
Sometimes, we should.

Surf Solar said:
It doesn't mean that I can't understand the anger and so on, like you pointed out. But this is not the way to go.
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You cannot fully understand the anger unless you experience it. Trust me.

You're from Germany, right?
Germany got its own share of crap because of communism. I don't know if you've been there at the time, but unless you were, you cannot fully understand.
You don't really need to be present at the time, but just seeing the consequences is enough (Libya is yet to see them. This is only a beginning).
 
I still fail to see any reason to shit all over human rights there, even in "bad times" these should be held up, else they are bound to fail.
 
Some people don't deserve to be treated as human.
Yes, the argument "who am I to judge that" is valid, but, like I've said, you cannot understand it fully until you're in the shitstorm.
 
Surf Solar said:
Going by this "argument" one is not better than an animal then.
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This is getting a bit tiring.

I am not like animal. Not in that way. You cannot understand that.

If I'm fighting for survival, freedom, rights or whatever against someone who took that away from me and others, is that wrong? And if that one who is the asshole deserves to be physically punished, so be it. Tortured, whatever. Nothing could compare to atrocities that man had done, and how many lives he had ruined.
And all those who've brought the whole idea of human rights would be sitting in comfortable chairs, preaching about it.
Yes, I support the idea of human rights, of course, but exceptions should be made. Punishments should be in place, brutal, if needed, and if there's someone who thinks it's "inhumane", he should meet the families that have suffered and see the graves of those who died because of that "human". And those who have suffered the most, should in these cases be judges.

That is all. I'm not expecting you to understand. I personally don't like to have this attitude, but I don't like many things about my life or this world, but hey, it can't be changed. My own experiences and of those around me have taught me to think that way.

If you have nothing to add, I'd appreciate if we stop it here. Nothing good can come out of discussions like this in these circumstances.
 
Atomkilla said:
I am not like animal. You cannot understand that.
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Of course you are, WE are. Humanity is actually in the most peril of times, nor savages nor wise.

I know a bit about dictatorships also and what happened to him is indeed very sad, specially the brutality of it.
Like you said earlier, I can fully understand why they kill him, but I don't agree.
 
Surf Solar said:
I still fail to see any reason to shit all over human rights there, even in "bad times" these should be held up, else they are bound to fail.
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[spoiler:c385c8ce03] In the fight for existence and life
There is no law
And in the presence of eternal death
There is no law
And as the struggle for power and domination prevails
In the arising slaughter
It shall be every man for himself
As in battle there is no law]

Countless numbers die in war's path
Armies falling to our wrath
Warriors of power marching to fight
Destruction, killing, is all that's in sight

Raise the shield or be cast into death
Take a final look, your final breath
Innocent victims of war
No turning back, in battle there is no law

Awaiting the slaughter, time stands still
Thoughts fade away, so does your will
Enemy close in, blood on their minds
You won't die once, die a thousand times

Soldiers of hatred, killing corps of war
Bodies litter the field, what was it for?
Stench of death, no victory for this night
Plead for mercy, you have no right

Raise the shield or be cast in to death
Take a final, look your final breath
Innocent victims of war
No turning back, in battle there is no law

NO LAW! [/spoiler:c385c8ce03]


Anyways, does this mean that gas prices can finally go back down a little a bit? That is honestly all I am worried about. If his death will stabilize the region for oil production to increase again and save me a few bucks at the pump, mission accomplished.

I don't have any doubts that Gaddafi was a bad man. He was a bit of a nutter for sure, a real Charlie Sheen of the Middle East. Some of his antics were just laughable hilarious, like his harem of super model bodyguards. Still don't feel the need to demonize him. Partly because I have a feeling that no good will really come of this. Libya will still probably be a hell hole and possibly even turn into an even worse breeding ground for terrorism.

Look what happened to Egypt, sure Mubarak is in a cage, and the military is also torturing and murdering minorities and dissidents in mass. Yay for democracy!

We can just chalk up the passing of Gaddafi as "might is right" and the time for his regime had ended.
 
Although I don't know if the NTC will be able to hold Libya together, Gaddafi deserved the death that he got at the hands of his own people, who he had oppressed for over 40 years.

All I can do now is hope that Mustafa Abdul Jalil knows what he's doing and can help rebuild the country, and keep it from turning into something like Somalia, or worse.
 
Surf Solar said:
:roll:

Going by this "argument" one is not better than an animal then.
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Humans are animals. Sure, we might know a bit more about technology, have opposable thumbs and eat a lot more of other animals than even the worst carnivores do, but at the end of the day, we're still animals.
 
Rich Dickardson said:
Although I don't know if the NTC will be able to hold Libya together... All I can do now is hope that Mustafa Abdul Jalil knows what he's doing and can help rebuild the country, and keep it from turning into something like Somalia, or worse.
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It'll get worse.
 
DammitBoy said:
Rich Dickardson said:
Although I don't know if the NTC will be able to hold Libya together... All I can do now is hope that Mustafa Abdul Jalil knows what he's doing and can help rebuild the country, and keep it from turning into something like Somalia, or worse.
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It'll get worse.
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Why is everyone on this site so cynical?
 
Sabirah said:
DammitBoy said:
Rich Dickardson said:
Although I don't know if the NTC will be able to hold Libya together... All I can do now is hope that Mustafa Abdul Jalil knows what he's doing and can help rebuild the country, and keep it from turning into something like Somalia, or worse.
Click to expand...

It'll get worse.
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Why is everyone on this site so cynical?
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It's DammitBoy, don't listen to him.


But yeah, it will probably get worse.
The rebels didn't show themselves to be the most awesome bunch so far.
I mean, rounding up black africans and executing them. Smart move.
 
This morning I wale up to the news that Ghaddafi apparently sponsored the FARC (local guerrilla group) and they have e-maisl that prove it! It's pretty pathetic that the goverment is still tryign to pull this shit on us, the whole "Reyes' Computor with unlimited emails that prove everything" got old two years ago. Maybe it has something to do with the recent student protests? I mean why would Ghaddafi be sponsoring a thrid world rebel military group on the other side of the world?
 
regarding harsh experience and killing.

Well some (or probably quite many) which survived the concentration camps kept some hate for the Germans especially nazis. Which is obvious. The people had some experience which probably cant be really understood if you haven't experienced it by your self.

Yet there have been a few individuals which decided not to hate or be angry about it or the Germans in particular simply because they said hate was the root of it all in the first place.

It reminds me to a young croat which happened to be a victim of a Serbian concentration camp during the civil war in the 90s. He said the same. He does not hate serbians as he has the feeling it was again hate which caused it all.

We all have our experience. The question is not how harsh it was but what you actually do with it. In the end everyone is dealing with it in his own ways.
 
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