Come and see... the live show of a war going on

[Crni Vuk]

I don't agree with everything you say, but I upvote your posts because I feel that there is simply to much bias. I am NOT(!) defending Russia here, but I just see how Russia as nation deserves a special status, when we literaly do the same shit in every nation. It just happens this time that it is in Europe, or at least some part of it - though I find this "Ukraine! A War in the heart of Europe!" a bit silly, really have the people actually bothered to look at a map?

 

[Gonzalez]

I do not deffend Russia's specific actions in Ukraine, but I'm not paranoid and afraid of them, and I wouldn't want a CIA sponsored coup or an escalation that would make things worse for everyone.

If a "revolution" is caused by either sanctions and/or outside intervention and underhand geopolitical plays then it will never be a "natural democratic process" and will not last, it will only delay whatever has to occur naturally and make things worse. If russians want a change they will create it themselves, everything else is an outside aggression, and we all know how that ends.

Even if what happened in Ukraine was a "natural process" and there wasn't outside intervention (wich the way things are in the world I doubt) it had consequences, and that consequence was Russia's intervention to secure it's interests, and a lot of local support from parts of the population not happy with the new developments. If Russia was simply occupying crimea against the will of it's inhabitants there will be some sort of resistance. Even though, what Russia did goes against international laws and is wrong.

I still think that the change in the Ukraine was forced, rushed into occuring by western interests and now we have a disaster because of it. The nation was not unanimous in such a huge change as to join the EU so soon, and I think a part of the population was stirred up to force a change that not everyone wanted, and then you have a civil war, what did you expect. They forced russian intervention and created the mess the country is in.

Maybe the separation was going to happen sooner or later, but with all the recent interventions that have occured (eg: Libya), and are still occuring (eg: Venezuela) I'm reluctant to think what happened was so "natural".

I don't know, maybe if the US govt and NATO weren't trying to forcefully change regimes around the world to serve their own interests all the dang time then they would still have some credibility left and I would be less suspicious of it.

Maybe if Russia would have supported the independence of Crimea instead of annexing it it would had been less contradictory of international law, but I guess that when the british sponsored and supported the referrendum in Malvinas/Falklands both inspired and set a precedent to justify the annexation referendum in Crimea.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I think it was more the Kosovo and the intervention by the NATO/European Union that showed Putin the way.

 

[Sub-Human]

I still think that the change in the Ukraine was forced, rushed into occuring by western interests and now we have a disaster because of it. The nation was not unanimous in such a huge change as to join the EU so soon, and I think a part of the population was stirred up to force a change that not everyone wanted, and then you have a civil war, what did you expect. They forced russian intervention and created the mess the country is in.

Yanukovych promised to join the EU for three years. He was ready for the application process. I don't remember protests in Ukraine asking him to stop what's he doing. I don't remember rebels taking up arms so that they can form an independent, pro-Russian republic. There was no violent opposition to try and topple him. From what I see - Eastern Ukrainian folk were really not that upset with his pro-EU policy for several years.

But then, when suddenly Russian ex-special forces and ex-military personnel enter Ukraine, like Girkin, Borodai, Zaharchenko (none of whom are locals), then there's massive protests, militias armed to the teeth and highly organized, raiding SBU and police buildings. Do you think it's a coincidence that Transnitrian and South Ossetian/Abkhazia veterans are leading an uprising?

Do you think Putin consulted Crimean support of a Russian invasion before he planned it? He admitted that he gave the order to retake the peninsula on 22 February, just as Yanukovych was fleeing (his own decision, might I add). Special forces raided the local parliament and forced to run a referendum. In 3 weeks of complete isolation (save for main Russian channels and promises of quadrupling pensions and salaries, an offer with which you could probably annex the entire Europe) and banners indicating that Ukraine is a nazi-fascist junta which is sending an army of Right Sector henchmen right this moment to kill innocent Russian people - a vote takes place. What do you think happens next? With no way of knowing what's going on, and under 24/7 of Russian state propaganda, which choice can the Crimean people make?

The people that do oppose Russian annexation - Crimean tatars, for example - are now facing oppression.

Anyways, I get the feeling that you cannot mention Putin and Russia without bringing up the damned, evil West. At this rate you might as well claim that Russia is fully justified to support, fund and supply the separatists in South-Eastern Ukraine, because US supported rebels in Syria.

 

[Gonzalez]

If anything it's more understandable, if not excusable, why Russia did what it did in Ukraine, a country that's next door to them, with the threat of NATO putting missiles right next to Russia's borders, not to mention the loss of the entire nation's only warm-water naval base, than all of the US/NATO interventions that have happened and are still happening all over the globe in countries far away from US and european borders.

The Ukraine conflict does not occur in another planet, separated from the rest of the world, it occurs within a geopolitical context, so it would be purposefully ignoring the issue not to compare it to the rest of the global conflicts and issues.

And what would have happened if Russia had not intervened, Ukraine would have joined NATO. If you can't connect the dots is because you don't want to.

And the EU knew they would be screwing Russia over if they took Ukraine from them, they aren't innocent about it.

There was constant support in the media from western politicians, as the maidan protests were happening, kerry even visited the protest sites in support of Yatsenyuk like seconds after Yanukovich was austed. All this is not innocent, is officially supporting a regime change and legitimizing it. And comming from the US and it's allies and their history, past and current. Please. A "natural democratic process" my lower backside.

Nice column from western media

 

[Sub-Human]

If anything it's more understandable, if not excusable, why Russia did what it did in Ukraine, a country that's next door to them, with the threat of NATO putting missiles right next to Russia's borders, not to mention the loss of the entire nation's only warm-water naval base, than all of the US/NATO interventions that have happened and are still happening all over the globe in countries far away from US and european borders.

How dare Ukraine ask for self-determination. It must exist solely to protect Russia's borders from NATO.

And what would have happened if Russia had not intervened, Ukraine would have joined NATO. If you can't connect the dots is because you don't want to.

Like Yanukovych was promising during his election...

And the EU knew they would be screwing Russia over if they took Ukraine from them, they aren't innocent about it.

Yeah, how dare the EU accept a perfectly willing and capable candidate. The EU should deny applicants solely on the status of their past relationships with Russia.

There was constant support in the media from western politicians, as the maidan protests were happening, kerry even visited the protest sites in support of Yatsenyuk like seconds after Yanukovich was austed. All this is not innocent, is officially supporting a regime change and legitimizing it. And comming from the US and it's allies and their history, past and current. Please. A "natural democratic process" my lower backside.

How dare Western politicians voice their support over anything. Considering how they've spent over a $100 million on Putin's party alone, it must mean Putin is a secret CIA agent. Oops!

 

[Gonzalez]

How dare Ukraine ask for self-determination.

We could say the same about Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk. Using words like "Self determination" and "Freedom" is not an authomatic justification for everything the west does. It's self determination and freedom when it's in their interest, but if it goes agains their interests it's aggresion and terrorism. Sorry, not buying.

Yeah, the militias of Donetsk and Luhansk are branded as terrorists, both officially and in the media, yet the Al Qaueda and ISIS figthing against Assad in Syria are freedom fighters, and the US govt sends them weapons.

I'm sorry, but I already gave you my view, other than that I'm not going to discuss semantics with you. What one side sees as a rightful democratic process another can see as an inconstitutional coup, neither of them are wrong and neither are right.

And I can assure you that if anyone gave Putin's party 100 millions it was only because they expected to get some sort of benefit out of it, not out of the kindness of their hearths. Maybe they got what they wanted or maybe not. Maybe the whole thing has already been arranged between Washington and the Kremlin and all we see in the media is a charade.

 

[Sub-Human]

How dare Ukraine ask for self-determination.

We could say the same about Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk. Using words like "Self determination" and "Freedom" is not an authomatic justification for everything the west does. It's self determination and freedom when it's in their interest, but if it goes agains their interests it's aggresion and terrorism. Sorry, not buying.

You are aware these situations are different, right?

I'm sorry, but I already gave you my view, other than that I'm not going to discuss semantics with you. What one side sees as a rightful democratic process another can see as an inconstitutional coup, neither of them are wrong and neither are right.

It was either an unconstitutional coup, or a rightful democratic process. You can't claim that we're both right or both wrong - it's one or the other.

And I can assure you that if anyone gave Putin's party 100 millions it was only because they expected to get some sort of benefit out of it, not out of the kindness of their hearths. Maybe they got what they wanted or maybe not. Maybe the whole thing has already been arranged between Washington and the Kremlin and all we see in the media is a charade.

The point was to fund a democratic process, for example political debates between students in rural regions. The whole thing was run by United Russia, so I don't see how it would have benefited the US in some sinister and twisted way.

To give you an example: I know a person who went to the US on a trip in 1995. She, along with a group of a hundred others, was invited to see how capitalism works and apply that knowledge back in Russia. The US co-funded (along with Russia) the entire trip, gave them visas, organized meetings with 'Americanized' Soviet societies.

Similar processes occured in other countries in East Europe - like Ukraine. The point was to assist the growth of a free market which in turn means a trading partner for the US. It is much like an assistance package to African countries. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[Gonzalez]

Okay, if you want absolutes, let me show you how simply I can argue it was an inconstitutional coup. Is violent protests against the ellected govenrment contemplated as a vlid way of ousting an ellected president in the Ukraine constitution? No. Is the president of Ukraine supposed to govern the remainder of his period and if people does not like how he did should show their disapproval excersicing their right to vote in the next ellection, and isn't that how it's written in the constitution? Yes. Then demmanding a president to resign (even when he already called for early ellections so the people could vote someone else ans show their disaaproval constitutionally) and managing to do so is inconstitutional? Yes. Technically, on paper it is inconstitutional. What is the meaning of "Coup", the illegal and sudden siezure of a govenrment. Can the way in wich Yatsenyuk and his party came to power be considered a coup? We already stablished it was illegal, and it certainly was sudden, as they didn't wanted to wait even for early ellections, and no one voted for them. So yes.

See how simply I can argue it. Of course it's more complicated than that, but as for technicalities, it can easely qualify as an inconstitutional coup.

And why is self determination different when it goes against Russia than when it works in it's favor. Unless you are arguing again that everyone in the Crimea and in Donbas are being held hostages by the russians. Sure, the russians support the rebellion, but the people there are strongly pro russian, and now more than ever, so if they want independence why shouldn't they be listened to? In Crimea a referendum was held, so it was in Donetsk and Luhansk. In Kiev the maidan protesters didn't asked the rest of the nation what they wanted, so why is their self determination any more valid than the self determination of areas where they are more russian friendly?

And about the funds, you said it yourself, the US expected to create free markets, that means flooding them with their products, and being US eonomy stronger than russian economy it would have meant great profit for US businesses, there you have your benefit. Not that it is particualrly beneficial to Russia tho, but it certainly is for the US.

I know that in your mind no one can willingly like belonging to Russia and willingly support Putin, and that everyone's dream is to live in the glorious United States of America and live the american dream, but I can assure you not everyone feels that way, a lot of people in this planet feels very differently.

 

[Sub-Human]

And why is self determination different when it goes against Russia than when it works in it's favor. Unless you are arguing again that everyone in the Crimea and in Donbas are being held hostages by the russians. Sure, the russians support the rebellion, but the people there are strongly pro russian, and now more than ever, so if they want independence why shouldn't they be listened to? In Crimea a referendum was held, so it was in Donetsk and Luhansk. In Kiev the maidan protesters didn't asked the rest of the nation what they wanted, so why is their self determination any more valid than the self determination of areas where they are more russian friendly?

These people are being held hostage. Do you believe, for a second, that Donbass and Luhansk civilians would begin a civil war if it wasn't for all the Strelkovs and Zaharchenkos? Do you also believe that the Kiev government would bomb innocent civilians just for the feck of it? The people might be happy being supplied help packages, but that's a bit like the murderer of your parents paying your bills every month; there's no excuse for Russian action in Eastern Ukraine. Especially considering that federalization movements are illegal in Russia; asking for a referendum risks a 5 year jail sentence. Why is Putin so hell-bent on allowing 'independence' to a people in a foreign state when he still hasn't given it to the 100+ ethnic minorities living in Russia? Good will?

And about the funds, you said it yourself, the US expected to create free markets, that means flooding them with their products, and being US eonomy stronger than russian economy it would have meant great profit for US businesses, there you have your benefit. Not that it is particualrly beneficial to Russia tho, but it certainly is for the US.

That's not a bad thing, is it? A free market economy stimulates growth, and that's good for any country. US providing aid is simply speeding up that process.

I know that in your mind no one can willingly like belonging to Russia and willingly support Putin, and that everyone's dream is to live in the glorious United States of America and live the american dream, but I can assure you not everyone feels that way, a lot of people in this planet feels very differently.

There are people who are brainwashed into the Russian World fantasy. But let's compare the living conditions of Russian and US citizens. No one in a healthy state of mind would prefer Russia over US.

 

[Gonzalez]

Except the only nation who has US living conditions is the US, not third world countries who if they open their markets to the strong US economy are flooded with cheap imports, cannot develop industries and are condemned to sell all of their natural resources and to be forever poor and forever in debt as in a quasy feudal state. Want to go live to the US to enjoy their living conditions? Good luck, they build walls around them and shoot trespassers on sight. And even if you get trough you are a second rate citizen who everyone sees as someone who is stealing their jobs because is so poor and desperate that is willing to work for less money.

You think that if Russia becomes western firendly and opens their markets to the US their economy will improve? Every single country in latin america US economy has touched it has devastated it's economy and left it in total misery. Only recently with more US independent govenrments in latin america living conditions have improved. If you think otherwise I don't kown what trash the media feeds you where you are but I live here and I see it with my own eyes. I've seen how US free market economy left my country in total misery and I've seen it recover with protectionist govenrments.

And if you care to just search youtube there are videos that show how residential areas are bombed, and the residents know very well where the bombs come from. Just how stupid do you think they are? People in Donbass hate western Ukraine so much that reconciliation is now impossible, so forget about them ever being part of the Ukraine again, no ammount of sanctions is going to solve that now. And Crimea? The Russians have already annexed them, consider them part of their territory and have deployed advanced weapons there.

The sanctions to Russia already have a lot of criticism in Europe, and many european nations economies have suffered for no reason. Now France exports have dropped because the germans have flooded the european market with what they used to sell to Russia and they no longuer do.

Now Germany and France negotiate with Russia without the United States in a show of sovereignty that should have happened long ago. So at least something good as came out of this mess.

This from western media, so you don't say it's all Kremlin propaganda.

 

[Sub-Human]

third world countries who if they open their markets [...] are flooded with cheap imports, cannot develop industries and are condemned to sell all of their natural resources and to be forever poor

So Russia's situation right now?

You think that if Russia becomes western firendly and opens their markets to the US their economy will improve?

It definitely did during the 90s. The result of which we began observing post-1998 - Western banks gave insane credits to Russia (its debt increased by close to 8 times), American and European companies provided new technologies for oil extraction, refining metals, building gas pipelines, foreign services went into Russian market. Now the average Russian lives much better than after the Soviet dissolution.

Unfortunately, Putin had to absolutely ruin this. The new leader of Russia will not get the same hospitality that Yeltsin and Putin received. There's no trust towards the 'democratic' Russian Federation of today.

And if you care to just search youtube there are videos that show how residential areas are bombed, and the residents know very well where the bombs come from. Just how stupid do you think they are? People in Donbass hate western Ukraine so much that reconciliation is now impossible, so forget about them ever being part of the Ukraine again,

Probably not in the near future, no. On the one hand, I'd agree that Poroshenko is an incompetent leader that should attempt to improve Ukraine's economy and fight corruption rather than double the military budget. He's definitely no Lee Kuan. On the other, Putin facing a similar situation in Chechnya after bombing civilians, placed a former terrorist Kadyrov-senior into power and awarded him all sorts of medals and ranks. Now his son gets a similar treatment, despite claiming that he killed his first Russian at the age of 16 or calling for jihad against Russian people (we can talk pages about Putin's hypocrisy). So Poroshenko could definitely buy a DNR leader who would pacify the locals - even if through ways that'd earn a seat in the Hague.

The sanctions to Russia already have a lot of criticism in Europe, and many european nations economies have suffered for no reason. Now France exports have dropped because the germans have flooded the european market with what they used to sell to Russia and they no longuer do.

There's a reason - to show that Russia shouldn't attempt aggression against sovereign states. The West didn't protest Georgia, although sanctions back then would have obliterated the Russian economy into a default. It's time they do it now.

 

[Gonzalez]

You just answered yourself, right after communism ended people was worse than during it, situations only improved after the west injected insane ammounts of money into Russia, and now Russia has a huge debt and his economy is very siceptible to western control. Therefore its industry disapperared, the west helped them not to maintain and develop industries but to extract oil more efficiently and now Russia basically has no industry higly dependant on imported goods and selling natural resources, and with a trade deficit. I'd say the west got just what they wanted out of them.

Improved living standards based on debt are a phallacy, it happened in Argentina during the 90's and it ended with hughe riots in 2001, leaving the country in total ruin and in worse living standars than it had ever been in it's entire history.

You also answered yourself another question. How is Poroshenk buy a pro-russian leader when, as you put it before the FSB and the GRU are involved. This doesn't mean the population is not pro-russian, but they sure are not going to let anyone bought by Kiev take control.

Ha, you and I here discussing it and it looks like the economists have already reached the conclussion that the sanctions have already stopped working.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, they use money like a drug. First they throw so much at you that you don't even know where to use it, making you high from it. And than they set you on cold turkey, buying everything that has any value.

 

[Sub-Human]

You just answered yourself, right after communism ended people was worse than during it, situations only improved after the west injected insane ammounts of money into Russia, and now Russia has a huge debt and his economy is very siceptible to western control. Therefore its industry disapperared

Are you saying that Putin's inability to diversify the economy after 15 years and 3 trillion US dollars is the fault of the evil West?

the west helped them not to maintain and develop industries but to extract oil more efficiently and now Russia basically has no industry

What exactly prohibited Putin from developing new industries? Did the West put a gun to his head and tell him to buy palaces and mansions and yachts and jets, or set up the most expensive Olympic Games in history, or spend millions of dollars on Chechnya instead of allowing its independence? When he could have just invested in basic infrastructure?

Ha, you and I here discussing it and it looks like the economists have already reached the conclussion that the sanctions have already stopped working.

Unfortunately, that article does not touch on all factors of the economy. It's easy to judge the economy by the growth of obligations and stocks, but what about the industry and 'real' sectors that actually fuel the country's finances? In February alone the production and sales of automobiles (anything from civilian sedans down to transport trucks and field tractors) has fallen by over 37%. The agricultural industry continues to fall (despite promises of import replacement, what happened?) - in February it decreased by almost 2%, as opposed to growth in all the past months. The currency reserves also continue to fall - by 10% ($35 bln.) since the beginning of this year.

 

[Gonzalez]

And thats the masterplan to make Russia return Crimea to Ukraine? Forgive me, but after an entire year of sanctions a few economical drawbacks are still miles away from what loosing Crimea would mean to Russia. This assuming that the drawbacks are directly related at all with the sanctions and are not a result of a million other factors. The notion that more sanctions will make Russia return Crimea to Ukraine at this point is just laughable.

The only thing that this makes is further push Russia towards a BRICS market and away from the EU. Of course the US doesn't give a wooden nickel about damaging european markets, Europe can burn as far as they are concerned, as long as it hurts Russia.

 

[Tagaziel]

And thats the masterplan to make Russia return Crimea to Ukraine? Forgive me, but after an entire year of sanctions a few economical drawbacks are still miles away from what loosing Crimea would mean to Russia. This assuming that the drawbacks are directly related at all with the sanctions and are not a result of a million other factors. The notion that more sanctions will make Russia return Crimea to Ukraine at this point is just laughable.

A few economical drawbacks like an imploding economy, rapidly emptying currency reserves, and a reputation of a hostile, violent local power that murders dissidents, journalists, and openly promotes ultranationalism?

What's truly laughable is your dismissal of all economic indicators, without even addressing them.

The only thing that this makes is further push Russia towards a BRICS market and away from the EU. Of course the US doesn't give a wooden nickel about damaging european markets, Europe can burn as far as they are concerned, as long as it hurts Russia.

Your fanatical hatred of the United States borders on disturbing. What, did an American rape your dog or something?

Similarly, your refusal to acknowledge the fact that Europe is much closer in terms of ideology and economy to the United States than Russia (it always did, in fact) borders on willful blindness. The EU is interested in Russia as a partner, but only if Russia doesn't act like... Well, Russia. I forgive you for not having a working knowledge of European history, on account of you being on a different continent and a post-colonial nation to boot, but you could really read up on the subject.

And yes, I will sound condescending as long as you don't do your research.

 

[Gonzalez]

What I'm saying, if you were paying attention, is that loosing Crimea is nothing compared to the economical problems they are suffering. There is even no point of comparison between one and the other. Are you serious? Loosing crimea to Russia is a disaster of biblical proportions to them. The economical debacle they can eventually recover, but loosing Crimea, they just could not recover from something like that, it's something they just cant afford.

And if if Europe agrees so much with the US on this why do France and Germany meet with Russia without the United States, and why are they refusing to apply more sanctions, and state that they will not automatically renew the current ones, when the US is pushing for more?

I find more disturbing your hated of Russia combined with your fanatism for someone who might not have your best interests at hand.
1-http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
2-http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/angela-merkel-victoria-nuland-eu-unacceptable

And to answer your question, they didn't rape my dog, I never had one, they just raped my nation's economy leaving it in complete ruin, and they didn't even had the common courtesy to call the next day. And before that they trained and supported a military dictatorship that killed and tortured 30.000 people under the excuse of stopping communist subversion in Latin America.

Also, what did you understand from my post? Do you even read them or is it my english is so bad? Where did I said that Europe is more close to Russia than the US politically and economically? If anything I stated the contrary, that Russia is being pushed by the US and the EU towards the BRICS and away from the EU (how little close it got after the fall of the USSR anyways), how in earth could that be confused with saying that Europe is closer to Russia than the US? And you're trying to be condescending to me? You're drunk.

All in all it doesn't matter because facts will speak for themselves. If Russia thinks that bending over to the west and returning Crimea humiliated and humbled, asking for mercy and the stop of such harsh sanctions because loosing Crimea is preferable to being economically attacked by the west, then you'll see it happen soon enough. However, I don't know, maybe I'm totally crazy for believing this, but it is my humble oppinion that hell will freeze over before we ever see that happen.

Eventually Russia will be an entirely lost cause for the US and the EU and we will have a neo-cold war like scenario.

 

[Sub-Human]

What I'm saying, if you were paying attention, is that loosing Crimea is nothing compared to the economical problems they are suffering. There is even no point of comparison between one and the other. Are you serious? Loosing crimea to Russia is a disaster of biblical proportions to them. The economical debacle they can eventually recover, but loosing Crimea, they just could not recover from something like that, it's something they just cant afford.

So what you're saying is that Putin is a stubborn dictator who prefers a grand empire illusion to the prosperity of Russian citizens?

 

[Gonzalez]

What I'm saying is that it's far worse for Russia to loose Crimea than having bad relatinships with the west. It's a no brainer. Seriously guys, do you even realize what you are saying? We are talking abour acces to warm-water ports, control over the Black Sea, the entire Black Sea fleet, not to mention all the natural resources. You think a few sanctions are going to make any change? It's not stubborness, it's not being stupid.

All this is antagonizing Russia and then say they are bad guys because the don't do what they are forced into doing. Not to mention the immense hipocresy when the west invades entire nations because of natural resouces all over the world. Gee, it's like, hello? Anyone there? I just don't get the narrow mindedness. You guys think western govenrments are entitled to do whatever they want, whenever they want it, and everyone has to agree with whatever they say, and on top of it all they use the moral highground to justify all they do when they are as rotten as they come.

It's the same "we are civilization, everyone else is barbaric and we bring progress" mentality that exterminated 50 to 70 millions people in the americas and continues to kill people all over the world. The arrogance.