Confederations Cup: USA 2 x 0 Spain, WTF?

[Cimmerian Nights]

Yeah I find that aspect really distasteful. It's shameless and chickenshit. I know not everyone does it, and some countries seem worse than others. But we already have pro-wrestling in America if we want to see people fake injuries and bad acting.

 

[Brother None]

Nobody likes the whining and pratfalls, which is why you can now get a yellow card for either.

But fans pretty much always hated it...well, everyone except the Brazilian, Argentinian, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian fans. Blame them.

 

[Sander]

Nobody likes the whining and pratfalls, which is why you can now get a yellow card for either.

But fans pretty much always hated it...well, everyone except the Brazilian, Argentinian, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian fans. Blame them.

Like Briosafreak. Haha!
It's also why everyone in England hated Robben (he's gotten much better since), and the whining is why everyone hates Cristiano Ronaldo, even though both players are some of the most technically gifted and exciting players around right now.

But we do have to be fair. We may not like the pratfalls, but there are occasions when we do cheer them on. Most notably for the Dutch, in the 1998 game vs Argentina. Ortega had been falling continually throughout the match, annoying the Dutch and the supporters to no end. Finally, he takes a dive inside the penalty area - but the referee manages to spot that it was a dive, and gives Ortega a yellow card.
Immediately afterward, Van der Sar stands towering over the small forward, the small forward gets up and seemingly headbutts Van der Sar. Ortega gets a red card for that, and the Dutch go on to win the game (with a truly beautiful goal by Bergkamp).

Afterward, Van der Sar admitted that Ortega barely touched him with the headbutt, and that he took a dive. No one cared, many people cheered it on as justice for the constantly falling Ortega.

For those who do not know what I am talking about, you can see the incident from 5:00 forward (and the preceding part of the match in the 5 minutes before that, obviously).
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-EwctgufVw[/youtube]

 

[Brother None]

Afterward, Van der Sar admitted that Ortega barely touched him with the headbutt, and that he took a dive. No one cared, many people cheered it on as justice for the constantly falling Ortega.

In all fairness, people shouldn't care because it doesn't matter if Ortega barely touched him with the headbutt, it's still a yellow card offense regardless of whether or not you're hit.

The funniest Dutch headbutt incident is still when Mark van Bommel was headbutted by Figo (I think). You can actually see him look shocked, and then figure "hang on I should fall down to try and screw a card on him" and then fall down.

Most unsportsmanlike game ever.

Generally dives are cheered when they result in penalties. It's a heat-of-the-moment thing. But players who constantly dived are hated by all cold-blooded football fans. It wasn't just the English who derided Robben for his constant tumbling.

 

[Sander]

In all fairness, people shouldn't care because it doesn't matter if Ortega barely touched him with the headbutt, it's still a yellow card offense regardless of whether or not you're hit.

He got a direct red, though.
I'm pretty sure it is a direct red card regardless of whether or not he got hit badly.

The funniest Dutch headbutt incident is still when Mark van Bommel was headbutted by Figo (I think). You can actually see him look shocked, and then figure "hang on I should fall down to try and screw a card on him" and then fall down.

Most unsportsmanlike game ever.

At some point that game turned from just sad and unsportsmanlike to hilarious, though.

Generally dives are cheered when they result in penalties. It's a heat-of-the-moment thing. But players who constantly dived are hated by all cold-blooded football fans. It wasn't just the English who derided Robben for his constant tumbling.

The Spanish never really minded (except that he sucked at it, they'd have loved it if he actually succeeded). He did change his ways since he's been at Real Madrid, though, which is slightly weird given that the Spanish care less than the English or Dutch.

 

[Makenshi]

My apologies to the US football (soccer) team

Confederations Cup final game: Brazil 3 x 2 United States

I think I didn't see this in the game against Spain because the spanish played so bad and arrogant (my opinion, bear with it or convince me), but the US team improved vastly in the last years.

Even thought the first goal against Brazil was a bit of luck, and there was a goal not accounted by the referee (it should have ended 4x2), the fact remains: US played great and almost won by their own merits.

Thank God we woke up and turned the table. Americans should show some love and support the team, I hope they keep on this track for the sake of good football games - because good games matter more than anything.

Also, kudos for the goalkeeper, he got the Gold Glove.

 

[Sander]

Decent match, Brazil looked lackluster and very static as usual, and the US defense managed to keep them in the game for a long time. It looked like a very even game.

Also, seriously, no need to make a new thread for this.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Re: My apologies to the US football (soccer) team

Thank God we woke up and turned the table. Americans should show some love and support the team, I hope they keep on this track for the sake of good football games - because good games matter more than anything.

We won't wake up, trust me.

The game will be mentioned in parts of the sports media (like ESPN), but not everywhere. By Tuesday it will be forgotten. That's just the way it is.

It's like you're trying to open a pizza restaurant in a town that already has 100 pizza restaurants.

Anyway, congrats Brazil.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Re: My apologies to the US football (soccer) team

We won't wake up, trust me.

Yeah if anything they'll get branded as chokers and slip back into obscurity.

I actually caught the game 3/4s in and I'm honestly surprised America had a lead, because Brazil seemed in control pretty much at that point.
And yeah, Brazil got robbed on that one goal.

Congrats Brasil

 

[Kyuu]

[Pratfalls are] the number one reason it'll never get big here. Taking a pratfall is an admission that you're a whiny little sissy, which is why the only athletes allowed to do it without shame are NFL punters.

I have to call BS on that. I mean seriously, have you ever watched an NBA game? Not to mention, most games, especially towards the end, actually revolve around fouls.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Yeah it's horrible, it's like they don't really want to score, they only want to make it appear enough like they're trying score so they can get the foul. Same with pass interference in the NFL, lots of teams know they can't throw deep, but they'll do it anyway to draw a foul.
That being said you can't pull an egregious dive on a hard parkay floor, you're just going to hurt yourself.

 

[Sicblades]

What was possession in that 2nd half? I saw the US touch the ball like for 5 minutes...

 

[Sander]

Don't know the 2nd half possession, but total possession stats were 41% USA/59% Brazil.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

IMHO, USA lost because of their extreme defense tactics coupled with no mid-field action. They had to spend so much wind to defend against Brazil constant attacks that by the second half, everyone was tiring. And each time Brazil attacked, the entire team had to run back to their field in a hurry. That destroyed the USA midfield. Their counter-attacks were good, but staying only on the defensive leaves then too few breathing room.

Its just me or EVERYONE plays on the defensive against Brazil? Brazil has always been a offensive team as long as I can remember.

 

[Hamenaglar]

Its just me or EVERYONE plays on the defensive against Brazil? Brazil has always been a offensive team as long as I can remember.

Wonder if it has anything with the overall ability of the brazil players?

If the opposition is technicaly and overall more gifted, you'll be simply forced to defend.

 

[welsh]

To be honest, I think the Brazilians were sloppy in the first half, and played better in the second. In the end, the Brazilians had a better team.

I agree, the Brazilians were denied a 4-2 win, because that one save by the US goalie was so inside the goal. Off the goalie, off the inside of the top of the post and then out? This is why soccer needs instant replay.

Must admit, I was very proud of the American team. Donovan's score was great. The first score was tapped in. But in the end, the Brazilians had a better team.

American response- we had some news on Monday announcing that the US placed second in the Cup- an acheivement.

Otherwise, most Americans slept through it.

Let me briefly explain why soccer will probably never be widely accepted in the US and why it remains important.

First- its important because without soccer there wouldn't really be a sport left for middle class white kids. Also, our girls do really well in the Olympics- in general (note to muslim world- this is one of the advantages of gender equality). Without soccer, most white middle class white kids would have virtually no chance at professional sports. They are generally no big enough for basketball and we're bringing in Hispanics for baseball. Some will continue to play football, but to be honest, football is how lower class American white kids get to college- so lets give them a chance. Without soccer in the US, there would be no soccer mom's, and you kind of have to be middle class to drive an SUV and own a house in the burbs.

So- if soccer is important for the white middle class, why will it remain marginalized?

Let me put it this way- if the British had invented American football, they'd probably rather play that then soccer.

Why? Because American football is fundamentally a tough warlike sport. This is not to deny the art and grace or strategic designs of football/soccer. Its simply that American culture uses American football frequently in numerous contexts outside of the field. We use it in our culture. It reflects both notions of team work, but also individual toughness. These are virtues I think the Brits have also aspired towards.

More importantly- if an American football player falls down into the field, and then fakes an injury, he's a douche bag and gets no love from fans. The commentators will make him out to be a pussy, no one will give him respect. He's a dick. American football players are expected to take hard hits and keep playing. They are expected to play with injuries. They are expected to play tough and, quite simply, they really shouldn't cry about a hit to fake an injury and get the other team to suffer a penalty kick or yellow or red card.

In soccer, many fans and players are very happy to fall down, cry like a bitch because they got hit, and get a penalty (justified or not) on the other team.

Most Americans see this in soccer and think the game is played by pussies.

Sorry, but honestly, this is why I was glad to see Brazil and the US in the finals- these were two teams that generally didn't stoop so low. This is also why I like the English team- because they don't generally pull that bullshit either.

This is why I was glad Spain didn't get there. This why I don't support Italy or Argentina. I like to see a good game, and I like to see a beautiful game (so I like Brazil). But its all the bullshit acting that makes me sick of soccer and why I swore off it after the last World Cup.

 

[Sander]

In soccer, many fans and players are very happy to fall down, cry like a bitch because they got hit, and get a penalty (justified or not) on the other team.

The only fans that like that are the mediterranean fans, and the Argentinian ones. Most people hate it as well. As was explained by BN.

 

[welsh]

Good! But alas, this remains the problem of Soccer, and yet again, I find myself agreeing with BN.

That BN... he's a smart cookie!

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

I think you have to take into account that football is just not playable by kids. You can barely get a HS team to carry out rudimentary plays.
Baseball? Kids can't throw in any kind of strike zone.
This accounts for soccer's popularity among young kids in the US - accessiblity.

Soccer, in it's most base (chasing a ball and kicking it in a particular direction) can be played by just about anyone. Same with basketball, a few friends, a ball and it's on. Football and baseball are so specialized, and organized, it really can't be played spur of the moment.

And middle class white kids have a lot more doors open to them then just pro-sports, which is a longshot crap-shoot of a profession. Of the millions of inner city black kids who play basketball, how many ever sign NBA contracts? less than a fraction of a percent, and even if they do, it's not a guaranteed golden goose. The guys in are consciousness are the freaks, most pro athletes wash out, they come and go faster than we know. We all like to dream as kids, but unless you're that .001% then it's not worth pursuing as a career for anyone. To dangle that kind of dream in front of underprivileged inner city minorities probably isn't helping the vast majority of them rise up the way they should.


And I take it you live down south because Hockey and Lacrosse are king up in the Northeast/Upstate NY/Great Lakes areas, not so much baseball and football like down south.

 

[welsh]

I think you have to take into account that football is just not playable by kids. You can barely get a HS team to carry out rudimentary plays.
Baseball? Kids can't throw in any kind of strike zone.
This accounts for soccer's popularity among young kids in the US - accessiblity.

Agreed about baseball. Not so sure about high school football though. When they have recruiters looking at high school players, that goes to show how early the recruitment begins.

Soccer, in it's most base (chasing a ball and kicking it in a particular direction) can be played by just about anyone. Same with basketball, a few friends, a ball and it's on. Football and baseball are so specialized, and organized, it really can't be played spur of the moment.

Well to be fair, you can find more baseball diamonds that soccer fields. But here's the rub- if you are in the US and you have a field were one could play either football or soccer (its rectangular and long enough) chances are the kids will play football- even if its only two hand touch. Why? Becauase its cultural.

You'll have a few kids playing soccer, but generally speaking, its only because soccer is different from football (and they want to do something different), and even then, most of the players will be kids who play soccer with a team.

To be fair, we have a lot of "little league" soccer teams. Pee wee soccer is very popular in the US. But again,its mostly a middle class white thing.

At college, however, if you want to play soccer with just a bunch of guys, most of the players will be foreign. At least that's true at UVa.

And middle class white kids have a lot more doors open to them then just pro-sports, which is a longshot crap-shoot of a profession. Of the millions of inner city black kids who play basketball, how many ever sign NBA contracts? less than a fraction of a percent, and even if they do, it's not a guaranteed golden goose. The guys in are consciousness are the freaks, most pro athletes wash out, they come and go faster than we know. We all like to dream as kids, but unless you're that .001% then it's not worth pursuing as a career for anyone. To dangle that kind of dream in front of underprivileged inner city minorities probably isn't helping the vast majority of them rise up the way they should.

Agreed. One has a better chance at being a successful crack dealer than a football or basketball player if you're poor and black.

Definitely middle class kids have more opportunities open to them in general. That they have more chance to play soccer is just a reflection in the division of spoils among social classes.

And I take it you live down south because Hockey and Lacrosse are king up in the Northeast/Upstate NY/Great Lakes areas, not so much baseball and football like down south.

I do, but I'm from New York, and yes, I remember a lot of kids playing street hockey and deck hockey growing up. Rangers vs Islanders was a big competition. Lacrosse was really about as big as soccer, unusual and few people played it.

But that's ok. Our Lacrosse is like how lots of countries play field hockey.