Dear Leader - has died
- Thread starter Starseeker
- Start date
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
Sabirah said:
lol, you replied almost exactly like I thought you would, but you do know that's a very weak argument, right? How long has Hitler been dead? Are you saying that his actions didn't still affect some people today? If you want talk recent, Deng ordered the tanks to march onto the protesting students in TienAnMen Square, just like Arab Springs, but did you see a NATO bombing run there? Bush was equally hilarious when he invaded Iraq and claimed North Korea is part of Axis of EVIL, and yet did piddly squat about it. Let's face it, Libya has lots of good oil and Gaddafi had tons of money to size for the western nations. Iraq was self explanatory. As for China, the current Chinese president order the crack down on Tibet during the Olympics, but guess what? Nobody really gave a hoot to do something about it since a lot of them rely on China for business or outright owns it money.
Anyway, if it's how it relates to you than that's fine, but please don't claim otherwise.
That's also the reason I used the 2 smileies.
As for a trip to North Korea, well, I was actually contacted by a forum member about such a thing, but I would recommend against it depending on your reasons.
Of course, if some of you really wants to do it, the best route would be to go from the mainland Chinese route. It might be a bad time right now though, since South Korea just went to DEFCON 3. Japan might also have put their SDF on higher alerts. China has posted more soldiers on the borders as well.
Of course, one of the most interesting place to visit in the past is probably one of the most dangerous one right now. The JSA is a fascinating place to visit. As you can see from pictures here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Security_Area
Scroll down and watch the 2 sides glare at each other. You can stand 1 foot in NK and 1 foot in SK. There were some hilarious things done by both sides, including the cutting down the chair leg incident and the flag competition. You can also visit the tunnels that the NK dug for possible invasions to the South. But I am not sure if one can do so now with the increased tension on both sides. Remember, the North and the South never signed a peace treaty, so they are still technically at war.
Since Mainland Chinese citizens can visit North Korea fairly easily, I get some pretty decent second hand accounts of the going ons there. The situation is pretty similar to China. Prosperity is given according to the closeness of your ties to the regime and how close your relationship is to the top. Corruption is fairly rampant, since people try to skim however they can without getting caught. There are lots of poor farmers. Of course, if you take the tour, this is what you would see:
A reality travel show Departures showcases 2 Canadian dudes going around the world, and they went to North Korea -
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFJJSx3Vr0c&feature=context&context=C318cc8cUDOEgsToPDskJK6nK8EAm5ozBTwobI5Jvx[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBbdsGxw8TI&feature=plcp&context=C318cc8cUDOEgsToPDskJK6nK8EAm5ozBTwobI5Jvx[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rRpcj-BpHM&feature=context&context=C318cc8cUDOEgsToPDskJK6nK8EAm5ozBTwobI5Jvx[/youtube]
Edit to add: I felt stupid waste one more post to reply to the following post, so I deleted it. Seriously, where did I say he was a good old chap or something?
Keep beating, but the horse is dead.
PainlessDocM
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Starseeker said:
Yes evil.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1oUd89QvGo[/youtube]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/1...orth-korea-conducts-missile-test-hours-after/
Hm.., a show of force?
Edit to add:
I received some interesting news. Apparently the Exiled eldest son of Kim Jong-Il has reportedly been mocking his younger brother and his father on Facebook. Can someone with a facebook account confirm this?
Hm.., a show of force?
Edit to add:
I received some interesting news. Apparently the Exiled eldest son of Kim Jong-Il has reportedly been mocking his younger brother and his father on Facebook. Can someone with a facebook account confirm this?
Token-not-found
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Tonight i drink for the people of NK.
May that bastard rot in piss.
May that bastard rot in piss.
What the fuck ...PainlessDocM said:
though how much can one really "blame" those guards if they are born and raised in such a system. I know it sounds strange. But it feels like they are all rather "victims" in a pretty strange way.
this will be difficuilt. One day when the people decide to overthrow the totalitariann system or it simply colapses. And then the guards and people will realize what they did actually to their "own" people.
Closed borders and information blackout breed animosity. Human beings don't like being kept in the dark, and things we know little about tend to scare us.
All of this applies to North Korea.
It's hard to believe that everything is hunky dory behind N.Koreas borders. I think it's usually safe to assume that the secretive nature of a communist country is there for a reason. History has provided evidence that those reasons are rarely good for most of the inhabitants of that country and their neighbours.
Starkiller makes a fair point though. Hasty assumptions shouldn't be made without first examining the evidence availiable. However, on the rare occasions Pyongyang communicates with the west, it invariably involves postuirng, shows of military force, petty snipes and propoganda. The West is no stranger to this kinda of behaviour and past experiences give good reason to keep N.Korea at arms length.
We'll have to wait and see what happens now he's dead. It could be a good thing for the rest of the world. Then again it could be a bad thing if it does lead to further destabilisation in the far East.
I think lambasting Westerners or people who live in the West for making certain assumptions about N.Korea, is probably a little obtuse in this case.
That's how I see it anyway.
All of this applies to North Korea.
It's hard to believe that everything is hunky dory behind N.Koreas borders. I think it's usually safe to assume that the secretive nature of a communist country is there for a reason. History has provided evidence that those reasons are rarely good for most of the inhabitants of that country and their neighbours.
Starkiller makes a fair point though. Hasty assumptions shouldn't be made without first examining the evidence availiable. However, on the rare occasions Pyongyang communicates with the west, it invariably involves postuirng, shows of military force, petty snipes and propoganda. The West is no stranger to this kinda of behaviour and past experiences give good reason to keep N.Korea at arms length.
We'll have to wait and see what happens now he's dead. It could be a good thing for the rest of the world. Then again it could be a bad thing if it does lead to further destabilisation in the far East.
I think lambasting Westerners or people who live in the West for making certain assumptions about N.Korea, is probably a little obtuse in this case.
That's how I see it anyway.
dude the issue is not that we know nothing about N-Korea but the N-Koreans know nothing about us.
The isolation works rather only in one way. namely to secure the people in power. Since the last 60 years or so N-Korea still builds on the fact that they are technicaly still in a "war" with the South (it is only a cease fire if you want so).
Not every detail is known about N-Korea. But its pretty obvious that they are one of the poorest countries in the world. That they spend most of their income to the military (about 20% I think). They have around 1 Million soldiers under arms. Germany does not even spend 1% for its military.
Just as like with the GDR all those walls and fences are rather there to protect the leadership from its own citizens then to keep the "enemy" out instead of the informations inside.
It is anyway a surprise how long they managed so far to keep their system up. But this sure cant go for ever.
The isolation works rather only in one way. namely to secure the people in power. Since the last 60 years or so N-Korea still builds on the fact that they are technicaly still in a "war" with the South (it is only a cease fire if you want so).
Not every detail is known about N-Korea. But its pretty obvious that they are one of the poorest countries in the world. That they spend most of their income to the military (about 20% I think). They have around 1 Million soldiers under arms. Germany does not even spend 1% for its military.
Just as like with the GDR all those walls and fences are rather there to protect the leadership from its own citizens then to keep the "enemy" out instead of the informations inside.
It is anyway a surprise how long they managed so far to keep their system up. But this sure cant go for ever.
I thought the idea was "its not as bad as it looks like" while I think it actually IS as bad as it looks like in N-Korea. For the people there at least. - if I missunderstood you then sorry.
There is a German group of ex-GDR officers which travel sometimes to N-Korea as they watch and examine the trains there because you can only find them there they still use some trains which have been left by Japanese (the journey costs 3000 euro per person though ... ). And they managed smuggle in 2 journalists as well. The pictures and videos they made really show how bad the situation there is.
There is a German group of ex-GDR officers which travel sometimes to N-Korea as they watch and examine the trains there because you can only find them there they still use some trains which have been left by Japanese (the journey costs 3000 euro per person though ... ). And they managed smuggle in 2 journalists as well. The pictures and videos they made really show how bad the situation there is.
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
popej said:
HUH?
Do you mean me or something?
If you are, I have no idea what you are talking about or what point you are trying to make. Because what you said has absolutely no relevance to what I said. I am utterly perplexed.
Starseeker said:popej said:
HUH?
Do you mean me or something?
If you are, I have no idea what you are talking about or what point you are trying to make. Because what you said has absolutely no relevance to what I said. I am utterly perplexed.
Apologies, got your nickname wrong, Starseeker.
Starseeker said:
I was referring to this and the general subject matter of your post. It came across to me that you were providing us with an education on how the current generation of N.Korean leaders are. Sometimes I read into things other people say a little over-zealously, spologies if that's the case.
I was trying to provide some perspective on why Westerners see Kim Jong Il the way they do. I mean I can only speak for myself but I think it's a widely shared opinion.
With regards to Mao, I agree, I've read Wild Swans, and some other literature written by Chinese citizens who had first hand experience with the regime. However, it was a relatively long time ago in a different country with differing ideals to the present leadership in N.Korea. Stalin killed millions of his own people too. It doesn't mean I think Kim Jon Il is neccessarily more 'evil' than Stalin or Mao.
Again, my post, was aimed at providing my perspective (and I believe others) on North Korea and it's leadership.
Sabirah said:
Yes I realise that. Like I said, it works both ways. The point is, we're still largely in the dark on many matters relating to life in N.Korea. I'm sure the average N.Korean knows even less about us, but that's not really relevant to the point I was addressing.
Well we know what is needed to form our opinion. Not every detail has to be revealed to us. For example its not important for us to know what kind of rice whine the leaders of the N-Korean officers drink to know that their people are starving and that pretty much all of their economy is going to the military. It really is not some kind of rocket science. N-Korea spends a tremendous high resources for their defensive and offensive capabilities - regardless the fact that most of their military equipment is outdated. Not to mention their nuclear programm. All of those combined together with the resources spend in controlling their people, the monitoring and camps for dissidents means that the common people will have to miss on many things. And those few things which are available go always first to those with privileges.popej said:
What ever we know or not know is unimportant because even with the "little" information that we have and the knowledge/experiences from other dictatorships it is quite clear that the situation in N-Korea for the common people is very bad. Remember. In a dictatorship you have one rule. Things which are conquered by force can be only hold by force. In other words the reason for the poverty is the source of the leadership. Without so many people under arms the N-Korean leadership could not hold their power.
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
popej said:Starseeker said:popej said:
HUH?
Do you mean me or something?
If you are, I have no idea what you are talking about or what point you are trying to make. Because what you said has absolutely no relevance to what I said. I am utterly perplexed.
Apologies, got your nickname wrong, Starseeker.
Starseeker said:
I was referring to this and the general subject matter of your post. It came across to me that you were providing us with an education on how the current generation of N.Korean leaders are. Sometimes I read into things other people say a little over-zealously, spologies if that's the case.
I was trying to provide some perspective on why Westerners see Kim Jong Il the way they do. I mean I can only speak for myself but I think it's a widely shared opinion.
With regards to Mao, I agree, I've read Wild Swans, and some other literature written by Chinese citizens who had first hand experience with the regime. However, it was a relatively long time ago in a different country with differing ideals to the present leadership in N.Korea. Stalin killed millions of his own people too. It doesn't mean I think Kim Jon Il is neccessarily more 'evil' than Stalin or Mao.
Again, my post, was aimed at providing my perspective (and I believe others) on North Korea and it's leadership.
Sabirah said:
Yes I realise that. Like I said, it works both ways. The point is, we're still largely in the dark on many matters relating to life in N.Korea. I'm sure the average N.Korean knows even less about us, but that's not really relevant to the point I was addressing.
lols, I feel like my third post has vanished into thin air, even though I can see it quite clearly.
I didn't lambast (I mean, beating with a cane, really?) any of the regular public in my postings. I was making sarcastic remarks about the most of the main stream North American media outlets. If we, as members of the public are ignorant, then it's the job of the media to make sure we become informed. I mean, isn't that what media is used for?
I have also no idea where people pick up the idea that I don't think Kim Jong-Il isn't bad or hasn't done horrible things. I was just making the point that there are lots of recent, and some more so leaders who has equally done horrible things with little or no repercussions or commentaries from or by the western media or governments.
I hate having to re-quote myself since that feels like self promotion, but as my third post states, if one want to make a argument for someone more recent and equally horrendous, there are plenty of candidates. And the irony of the subject matter at hand is, Libya was bombed to hell, and Gaddafi was painted as a vile dictator, but what happened to North Korea? Nothing. Bush junior called North Korea as an Axis of Evil and invaded Iraq, but what happened in North Korea?
Of course, the obvious reason would be China. If one like to talk about recent (Mao died at the same time as the Vietnam war, it's obvious what the focus was. it's a weak argument as stated in my third post)and relevance , we can talk about Deng XiaoPeng, who ordered the tanks to march onto the completely innocent student protesters in TienAnMen Square. Hu JinTao, the current PRC leader, order the crack down on dissenters right before the 2008 Beijing Olympics and what happened? Nothing. Did we see a NATO bombing run on Beijing when TienAnMen happened? Hell no.
A lot of people in the western media mocked and made fun of Kim Jong-Il before and after his death, and I have no problem with that in of itself. I just found it hypocritical as to claiming Kim as all that while Hu or Deng has done similar things without a peep from the western media. I already said that I am probably ignorant and not very well informed, but I haven't seen a South Park or Team America movie about either of them.
It's very common to paint good guys and bad guys in 30 secs of news clips or 3 sentences of twitter since it's easy and convenient. It's a model that has been done for a long, long time. I don't see any point of criticizing major media outlets for that, since as a student of marketing, I know you need to settle on a market you sell to and keep at it. (listening to CNN anchors preaching about journalism integrity and "neutrality" while they make millions reading from a tv prompter is about the same as listening to CCTV news anchors praising the glory of the CCP)But as is the media's job is to inform, my job as a member of the public and viewer is to make educated guesses/decisions about world events as per the information given. If the information I received is skewed, how am I supposed make informed decisions or even know wth is going on? I am just saying that if you want to bash "evil" (hate the term in North America, seeing it has been heavily weighted down by pointless religious connotations), please bash them equally.
Of course, that's a pipe dream, if one takes a quick look at media holdings around the world. So, yes, if it's more relevant to you, fine, if it's easier to bash, that's fine as well.
we know those things about China and Russia (they are not saints either).
But our dear great leaders decided they are to valuable partners. Chinese money and Russian gas is simply more worth then N-Korean citizens in this case.
It was always that way.
The good side is we have at least the chance to educate our self on the subject. And I think dealing with the situation that way is better then isolation (politically and economically).
give China more time and you will see changes.
But our dear great leaders decided they are to valuable partners. Chinese money and Russian gas is simply more worth then N-Korean citizens in this case.
It was always that way.
The good side is we have at least the chance to educate our self on the subject. And I think dealing with the situation that way is better then isolation (politically and economically).
give China more time and you will see changes.