Wooz said:
Let me guess: wolverine - blizzard - sawblades?
Determinists Piss Me Off.
- Thread starter Bradylama
- Start date
Let me guess: wolverine - blizzard - sawblades?
welsh
Junkmaster
Bradylama- you seem to suffering a lot of angst these days.
As for determinism- I usually think of determinism in terms of causal determinism, and in that sense seems more about an ontological view of just a faith that most things the world are capable of being explained even if we lack the capacity to do so at this present time. But maybe that's because my background is law and social sciences.
For example, a person might be feeling a bit depressed and feeling a sense that things will only get worse. Maybe he is depressed, maybe he has a psychological chemical imbalance, or maybe something triggered a repressed memory of impending doom- or maybe he is suffering from potassium deficiency because he hasn't been eating bananas , a symptom of which is supposedly an increased sense of existential dread. Which is it? Fuck if I know, I'm not a nutritionist or a shrink. But I think someone could figure it out.
I don't think one can go about trying to understand the world, at least in secular terms, without a sense of determinism- a faith that things can be explained.
Maybe it's all about the issue of faith.
I just read the Exorcist, and the book is better than the movie if you look for it and it kind of speaks to this. At one point the devil taunts Father Karras suggesting that Karras will be the devil's victory.
Karras's faith is tormented at that time. Through much of the story, the family is taking the possessed girl to doctors for treatment, but science doesn't get it and can't figure it out. Karras himself, a trained psychologist, doesn't believe it. The raising the bed - psycho-kinetics. Reading his mind- ESP, the possession itself- a case of suggestion. Even the physical changes- a consequence of hysteria (Remember this is the 70s and psychic abilities were being studied). Many of the symptoms of possession could be explained by science or at least pseudo-science.
When the exorcist finally shows up he suggests that the reason why the devil possesses is less about the victim but about the damage the devil does to our sense of humanity, our notions of human dignity. The exorcists links it all with his faith in God and sees the demon for what it is. The kid is innocent and victimless- and sin of the demon is not the will of the kid. The target is the demon's audience.
But Karras faith in science gets in the way of his faith in God, and is his undoing. In a sense this is partly a matter of circumstances, the priest is vulnerable, the family is shooting film on the Georgetown grounds, and everyone happens to be in the right place at the right time. And perhaps is the reason this particular kid gets possessed - the devil takes advantage of the relationships to get to a priest when his faith is uncertain. IF determinism accepts everything at point T goes back to pre-existing circumstances- the possession happens because of something- go to point T -1.
But I think an honest determinism, that is mindful that few scientific laws really exist, understands that theory is about falsification and not proof, and that the study of human nature is still very inexact, will be mindful to be humble. Science as inquiry into the reasons things happens accepts theory only until a better one comes along. It must always question itself, destroy and rebuild.
But given that circumstance, maybe a determinist might say- why is the kid's head spinning and throwing up projectile vomit, lifting tables, speaking tongues, telling fortunes, speaking backwards, etc. Maybe it's an optical illusion and can be explained scientifically- but maybe the cause for all of this is that the kid's fucking possessed and we need a priest like now. Simple explanation- demonic possession. Why? T-1- circumstances.
At the basic level where I approach determinism- it's about cause and effect and eventually drawing a line and saying "that's how deep my inquiry goes" and then challenging one's theories with alternatives to find the best theory.
Even Marx's structural determinism gave way to a disclaimer that men make history, if not always as they wish to, allowing some play for free will.
Do we have free will or not- maybe part of that is about what we choose to believe in a world of incomplete knowledge- and information. Thus a matter of what we choose to have faith in.
That said, what superior methods exist for explaining the world we live in?
As for determinism- I usually think of determinism in terms of causal determinism, and in that sense seems more about an ontological view of just a faith that most things the world are capable of being explained even if we lack the capacity to do so at this present time. But maybe that's because my background is law and social sciences.
For example, a person might be feeling a bit depressed and feeling a sense that things will only get worse. Maybe he is depressed, maybe he has a psychological chemical imbalance, or maybe something triggered a repressed memory of impending doom- or maybe he is suffering from potassium deficiency because he hasn't been eating bananas , a symptom of which is supposedly an increased sense of existential dread. Which is it? Fuck if I know, I'm not a nutritionist or a shrink. But I think someone could figure it out.
I don't think one can go about trying to understand the world, at least in secular terms, without a sense of determinism- a faith that things can be explained.
Maybe it's all about the issue of faith.
I just read the Exorcist, and the book is better than the movie if you look for it and it kind of speaks to this. At one point the devil taunts Father Karras suggesting that Karras will be the devil's victory.
Karras's faith is tormented at that time. Through much of the story, the family is taking the possessed girl to doctors for treatment, but science doesn't get it and can't figure it out. Karras himself, a trained psychologist, doesn't believe it. The raising the bed - psycho-kinetics. Reading his mind- ESP, the possession itself- a case of suggestion. Even the physical changes- a consequence of hysteria (Remember this is the 70s and psychic abilities were being studied). Many of the symptoms of possession could be explained by science or at least pseudo-science.
When the exorcist finally shows up he suggests that the reason why the devil possesses is less about the victim but about the damage the devil does to our sense of humanity, our notions of human dignity. The exorcists links it all with his faith in God and sees the demon for what it is. The kid is innocent and victimless- and sin of the demon is not the will of the kid. The target is the demon's audience.
But Karras faith in science gets in the way of his faith in God, and is his undoing. In a sense this is partly a matter of circumstances, the priest is vulnerable, the family is shooting film on the Georgetown grounds, and everyone happens to be in the right place at the right time. And perhaps is the reason this particular kid gets possessed - the devil takes advantage of the relationships to get to a priest when his faith is uncertain. IF determinism accepts everything at point T goes back to pre-existing circumstances- the possession happens because of something- go to point T -1.
But I think an honest determinism, that is mindful that few scientific laws really exist, understands that theory is about falsification and not proof, and that the study of human nature is still very inexact, will be mindful to be humble. Science as inquiry into the reasons things happens accepts theory only until a better one comes along. It must always question itself, destroy and rebuild.
But given that circumstance, maybe a determinist might say- why is the kid's head spinning and throwing up projectile vomit, lifting tables, speaking tongues, telling fortunes, speaking backwards, etc. Maybe it's an optical illusion and can be explained scientifically- but maybe the cause for all of this is that the kid's fucking possessed and we need a priest like now. Simple explanation- demonic possession. Why? T-1- circumstances.
At the basic level where I approach determinism- it's about cause and effect and eventually drawing a line and saying "that's how deep my inquiry goes" and then challenging one's theories with alternatives to find the best theory.
Even Marx's structural determinism gave way to a disclaimer that men make history, if not always as they wish to, allowing some play for free will.
Do we have free will or not- maybe part of that is about what we choose to believe in a world of incomplete knowledge- and information. Thus a matter of what we choose to have faith in.
That said, what superior methods exist for explaining the world we live in?
welsh
Junkmaster
I hope I didn't kill this thread.
Note to self- don't drink and post.
Note to self- don't drink and post.
welsh said:
It's funny how you do that, really. You show up in a thread, and everybody runs away from it.
I guess you're that scary...
You show poor reasoning skills, CCR.
The point of any belief is to disregard 'knowing' things. I 'know'that I don't know anything for certain, but I CAN 'believe' that I know something for certain. The essential difference is that belief does not require the knowledge that it exists, while knowledge does.