Diversity in video games and whatnot

[Garbagecrone]

... I had no idea his middle name was Israel... this is.... disstressing

One of the FIRST things he says to you is "nothing is new under the sun". It's not a secret that he's Jewish, dude, get over it lol

why not just focus on a good story? Why does race have to factor in to it?. If i tell a gut wrenching story about a father going through the loss of his child, should it matter if his white?. No it shouldn't the only thing that should matter is the character, and seeing how he grows and develops. Shoving in diversity just for the sake of diversity isn't clever,or creative it's just simply lazy.

Why does the story have to be about a father going through the loss of his child AGAIN it's ALWAYS a father going through the loss of his child, or his wife, or his honor, or his masculinity, or his etc. Why not tell a story about idk, anyone else?

 

[Vergil]

One of the FIRST things he says to you is "nothing is new under the sun". It's not a secret that he's Jewish, dude, get over it lol

I didnt know that was a jew thing. Oh well.

Why does the story have to be about a father going through the loss of his child AGAIN it's ALWAYS a father going through the loss of his child, or his wife, or his honor, or his masculinity, or his etc. Why not tell a story about idk, anyone else?

Why does the story teller have to change writing about what he writes about because it doesnt suit you and your ideology? If you switch to be a black mother does it really impact the story enough to justify it? Is it suddenly just way better because it doesnt have a White male in it? And instead of telling him what to write and do, how about you write your own story yourself instard of trying to control what other people do? SJWs seem obsessed with dictating other's creations without making any of their own.

 

[Mr muggyman 3000]

Why does the story have to be about a father going through the loss of his child AGAIN it's ALWAYS a father going through the loss of his child, or his wife, or his honor, or his masculinity, or his etc. Why not tell a story about idk, anyone else?

Your proving my point by harping on the fact that he is a father, rather then focusing on the point of the story, which is a story about a parent going through a tragic loss. Why does it matter if he's a father, would you feel more sympathy if it was a mother instead, isn't that in itself sexist?

 

[Garbagecrone]

I didnt know that was a jew thing. Oh well.

En kol chadásh táchat hashámesh, yeah, it's from Torah

Why does the story teller have to change writing about what he writes about because it doesnt suit you and your ideology? If you switch to be a black mother does it really impact the story enough to justify it? Is it suddenly just way better because it doesnt have a White male in it?

Because a black mother's perspective is one that games as an artform have yet to explore in a meaningful sense.

Your proving my point by harping on the fact that he is a father, rather then focusing on the point of the story, which is a story about a parent going through a tragic loss. Why does it matter if he's a father, would you feel more sympathy if it was a mother instead, isn't that in itself sexist?

I think fatherhood and motherhood are different concepts with different meanings that bring different perspectives to stories we've already heard. I like plenty of stories about men, I don't think I'd be able to play Fallout if I was opposed to the kind of story you're presenting. I just don't want the medium to stagnate.

 

[Vergil]

The medium was doing quite well until everthing became sexist and racist all of the sudden.

 

[Garbagecrone]

The medium was doing quite well until everthing became sexist and racist all of the sudden.

The accusations of racism and sexism come from arguments like this one, where people can't humble themselves enough to see that their perspectives on art aren't absolute and instead deign to shut down any notion that people who aren't like you deserve to play through their fantasies instead of yours. If people who aren't straight white men should be making games (and better games that more appeal to you, apparently?) in order to tell their own stories, then why aren't you working to get those folks the resources they need to start creating for a medium that's dominated by other demographics instead of denigrating their attempts to make their voices heard?

 

[Mr muggyman 3000]

Because a black mother's perspective is one that games as an artform have yet to explore in a meaningful sense.



I think fatherhood and motherhood are different concepts with different meanings that bring different perspectives to stories we've already heard. I like plenty of stories about men, I don't think I'd be able to play Fallout if I was opposed to the kind of story you're presenting. I just don't want the medium to stagnate.

I personally don't think the medium is stagnate I think it's far from it. Video game have a long history of good female characters. Samus Aran was a strong independent ass kicking women who was introduced way back in the late 80s. So is Lara Croft,. Even "objectified" characters like Juliet from lollipop chainsaw,or bayonetta are strong ass kickers in their own right. I can name plenty more but I think I made my point by now.

 

[CT Phipps]

why not just focus on a good story? Why does race have to factor in to it?. If i tell a gut wrenching story about a father going through the loss of his child, should it matter if he's white?. No it shouldn't the only thing that should matter is the character, and seeing how he grows and develops. Shoving in diversity just for the sake of diversity isn't clever,or creative it's just simply lazy.

Speaking anecdotally, my first novel manuscript was complete shit. It was about a white ubermale protagonist who all of the beautiful white women in the book adored who was super heroic, badass, and was pretty much the textbook definition of a Gary Stu. My writing associates, rightfully, savaged me for it. It read like a bunch of cliche stock characters and was worth less than the cost of the printer paper it would take to print up.

Taking a moment to toss the manuscript in the fire, I took the elements of the story I liked and then started trying to figure out how to make it so it wasn't a steaming pile. Among other things, I did my very best to not make any of the characters stock characters. Thinking about their race, background, sexual attraction, and giving them backstories that set them apart made the world come alive in a way which hadn't before. I gave my characters realistic flaws, prejudices, and made them a variety of appearances as well as relationships.

The world suddenly felt far more "lived in" as we had Jewish, Hispanic, gay, straight, and lesbian characters who all existed in a world which was full of flaws as well as tensions. The backstories flowed into the narrative and there were interactions which didn't relate to the narrative. I published the book as The Rules of Supervillainy and of the 100 or so reviews I've gotten on it, a good third mention the books diversity as a selling point.

I also got a good amount of hate mail but it was on Audible's bestseller list for a week and on the humor best seller for four weeks.

 

[Garbagecrone]

I personally don't think the medium is stagnate I think it's far from it. Video game shave a long history of good female characters. Samus Aran was a strong independent ass kicking women who was introduced way back in the late 80s. So is Lara Croft,. Even "objectified" characters like Juliet from lollipop chainsaw,or bayonetta are strong ass kickers in their own right. I can name plenty more but I think I made my point by now.

I love all of these characters, yeah! But you didn't even know Samus was a woman until the end of the first game (up until that point operating under the assumption that she was a man, right?), Lara Croft was made to be marketed to young men, the core marketing demographic for video games in the 90s so as ~strong~ as she is, she's still some dude's wank material right? And while I've never played lollipop chainsaw, there's definitely a case to be made for Bayonetta being a strong character for women to empathize with and relate to! I feel like that's undermined a bit by the fact that in the actual core gameplay loop she's like... More of a fetish model than an ass-kicker right? Don't we owe it to ourselves to, while taking pride in our past accomplishments, also look forward and try to do even better next time?

snip

And that's the thing! By thinking about all these other potential pieces of a character, you end up with a story that can be about a lot more than you initially intended, and suddenly the characters start feeling a little more human than you intended.

 

[CT Phipps]

I love all of these characters, yeah! But you didn't even know Samus was a woman until the end of the first game (up until that point operating under the assumption that she was a man, right?), Lara Croft was made to be marketed to young men, the core marketing demographic for video games in the 90s so as ~strong~ as she is, she's still some dude's wank material right? And while I've never played lollipop chainsaw, there's definitely a case to be made for Bayonetta being a strong character for women to empathize with and relate to! I feel like that's undermined a bit by the fact that in the actual core gameplay loop she's like... More of a fetish model than an ass-kicker right? Don't we owe it to ourselves to, while taking pride in our past accomplishments, also look forward and try to do even better next time?

That actually was something I wanted to bring up in an earlier post which would have been a variant. Basically, the sliding scale between characterization and "Can I masturbate to it?" Basically, Samus Aran and Lara Croft have many wonderful qualtiies as female characters but there's the weird creepy developer tendency to feel the need to make them strokable. I mean, it's not even so much as they're beautiful women adventurers but they need to look like Playboy models at the same time.

It's a thing with comic books.

Like they recently revamped (pun intended) Vampirella's costume and people were complaining how it ruins the sexy V-bikini while saying the new was unsexy--despite the fact her new costume was a Roller Derby outfit with short shorts.

It's why I like Evie Frye as she is an adorable heroine who also kicks ass but actually looks like someone you could meet in RL outside of Hollywood or a strip club.

There's a space between wank candy and Saudi Arabia people. We can find it.

 

[Mr muggyman 3000]

I love all of these characters, yeah! But you didn't even know Samus was a woman until the end of the first game (up until that point operating under the assumption that she was a man, right?), Lara Croft was made to be marketed to young men, the core marketing demographic for video games in the 90s so as ~strong~ as she is, she's still some dude's wank material right? .

So just because guy's find lara croft sexy, it means she's a weak character? Is there anything inherently wrong with her being some dudes wank material, she still kicks a shiton of ass. I know there's a ton of women who stuff their turkeys to sexy "hunky" characters, like khal drogo or Sherlock(Benedict version), or any character played by Ryan gosling, it doesn't make me think that the characters are weak, it's just a simple fact that women will be attracted to certain kinds of guys, and guy will be attracted to certain kinds of girls.

 

[Garbagecrone]

So just because guy's find lara croft sexy, it means she's a weak character? Is there anything inherently wrong with her being some dudes wank material, she still kicks a shiton of ass. I know there's a ton of women who stuff their turkeys to sexy "hunky" characters, like khal drogo or Sherlock(Benedict version), or any character played by Ryan gosling, it doesn't make me think that the characters are weak, it's just a simple fact that women will be attracted to certain kinds of guys, and guy will be attracted to certain kinds of girls.

The issue here is that those actors are real people who can't help the way they look, and Lara Croft is a 3d model specifically designed to be "sexy".

 

[CT Phipps]

So just because guy's find lara croft sexy, it means she's a weak character? Is there anything inherently wrong with her being some dudes wank material, she still kicks a shiton of ass. I know there's a ton of women who stuff their turkeys to sexy "hunky" characters, like khal drogo or Sherlock(Benedict version), or any character played by Ryan gosling, it doesn't make me think that the characters are weak, it's just a simple fact that women will be attracted to certain kinds of guys, and guy will be attracted to certain kinds of girls.

Part of the problem with Diversity discussions is they're not binary. There's no, "yes" or "no" answers here as its a discussion of the nature of painting. I'm a sex positive person in general. Sex is awesome and I think America could do with a lot less Puritanical slut-shaming in how it handles everything from the human body as well as the commonality of people having sex.

One of the things I liked about the Witcher 2 and the Witcher 3 is both are mature games with tasteful nudity. I also felt Wolfenstein: The New Order benefited from the fact BJ and Anya have sex in the first Act then continue to have sex up until the end. It's not the end of some kind of weird quest to "earn" her affection or the end of the story. They like each other, they start a relationship, and they have one.

On that end, there's nothing wrong with Lara Croft being sexy. She's a sexy character and plenty of people male and female love her for her sex symbol status. It's just I think the character benefits from avoiding ridiculousness.

How do I define ridicuolousness?

Telling Angelina Jolie she has to stuff her bra as she's not buxom enough to play the character.

That's ridiculousness.

 

[Mr muggyman 3000]

snip

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Congratulations on the success of your book man. I have not read your novels yet so i really can't say anything about your statement, other then congratulations on managing to make your artform a career.

 

[CT Phipps]

Congratulations on the success of your book man. I have not read your novels yet so i really can't say anything about your statement, other then congratulations on managing to make your artform a career.

Much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[RangerBoo]

I love all of these characters, yeah! But you didn't even know Samus was a woman until the end of the first game (up until that point operating under the assumption that she was a man, right?), Lara Croft was made to be marketed to young men, the core marketing demographic for video games in the 90s so as ~strong~ as she is, she's still some dude's wank material right? And while I've never played lollipop chainsaw, there's definitely a case to be made for Bayonetta being a strong character for women to empathize with and relate to! I feel like that's undermined a bit by the fact that in the actual core gameplay loop she's like... More of a fetish model than an ass-kicker right? Don't we owe it to ourselves to, while taking pride in our past accomplishments, also look forward and try to do even better next time?

Have you never read or seen the shit that girls and women make? My god, they are more pornographic then anything I have ever seen a guy make. With women its nothing but sex and kink material for them. Twilight, Fifty Shades, fucking Yaoi, ect. Men are treated as nothing more then objects who's only purpose is to get their panties moist. Seriously, just go and look at fanfic or fan art and look how far the rabbit hole that some of these girls go. If a guy sexualize a female then that is sexist but if a girl sexualize a men then that is empowerment!

 

[Garbagecrone]

One of the things I liked about the Witcher 2 and the Witcher 3 is a mature game with tasteful nudity.

Yes! I don't have a problem with their being sex, sexy themes, and sexy people in video games (I'm so gay for Yennefer oh my god) it's just when you refuse to give the character any depth beyond being sexy or just make them sexy and there for the player to jerk off to that it becomes a problem. I just think video games need to grow up.

 

[CT Phipps]

Have you never read or seen the shit that girls and women make? My god, they are more pornographic then anything I have ever seen a guy make. With women its nothing but sex and kink material for them. Twilight, Fifty Shades, fucking Yaoi, ect. Men are treated as nothing more then objects who's only purpose is to get their panties moist. Seriously, just go and look at fanfic or fan art and look how far the rabbit hole that some of these girls go. If a guy sexualize a female then that is sexist but if a girl sexualize a men then that is empowerment!

Oh yes, my wife's reading habits are utterly filthy. If she was a game developer, there'd be nonstop barrages of women being tortured and raped then joining up with their vampire/hitman/"good" serial killer love to enact revenge like the 5th season of Dexter with Julia Stiles only with more sex.

Which does bring up an interesting element of this discussion that this is fundamentally an argument about literary or artistic criticism versus something that is really about anything, dare I say, "important." This is really just about whether the fandom thinks games would be better with more or less diversity as well as different handling of women in games.

Because at the end of the day, they're all cartoons.

I also think more variations and kinds of video games should be made, which the indie scene is more likely to create than the Triple A.

Yes! I don't have a problem with their being sex, sexy themes, and sexy people in video games (I'm so gay for Yennefer oh my god) it's just when you refuse to give the character any depth beyond being sexy or just make them sexy and there for the player to jerk off to that it becomes a problem. I just think video games need to grow up.

Honestly, I think the characters of the Witcher are sexier for their personalities and depictions. At the risk of being a 35 year old man who is listing his fictional video game crushes, I prefer Leliana and Claire Redfield and, yes, Ms. Croft to the girls of Beach Volleyball.

 

[Garbagecrone]

Have you never read or seen the shit that girls and women make? My god, they are more pornographic then anything I have ever seen a guy make. With women its nothing but sex and kink material for them. Twilight, Fifty Shades, fucking Yaoi, ect. Men are treated as nothing more then objects who's only purpose is to get their panties moist. Seriously, just go and look at fanfic or fan art and look how far the rabbit hole that some of these girls go. If a guy sexualize a female then that is sexist but if a girl sexualize a men then that is empowerment!

I never excused any of those things, and I'm talking about video games. And I could unpack the reasons that all three of those things are pretty terrible in my view but it's off-topic.

Also, this reply seems like a bit of a red herring. Men and women both have the ability to make non-pornographic material. I'm not sure why you're comparing high-profile erotica to video games either, as they're in pretty different territory.

 

[CT Phipps]

I never excused any of those things, and I'm talking about video games. And I could unpack the reasons that all three of those things are pretty terrible in my view but it's off-topic.

It does fall into actually what I consider to be a larger issue of this.

I've mentioned my love of the following:

And really, my favorite thing in gaming is this:



HOWEVER, much like how I can enjoy a good hamburger that doesn't mean I don't like a nice steak either.

No one should take away cheap violence and sex as entertainment. My wife would kill me if I tried to.

Literally.

However, games aiming higher in storytelling and depictions is something good too.