Do you believe in communism?

Pisis

First time out of the vault
Ummm, actually, do you really believe in Communism? It's an utopia... plus not mentioning the fact that you're depiciting a man who is responsible for over 43,000,000 people death and other tens of Millions of destroyed lives...

Your fight.

BTW, excellent Old Fashion Boy, phomax!
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Over'n'out,
Pisis
 
Pisis said:
Ummm, actually, do you really believe in Communism? It's an utopia...

The main problem of Communism is that nobody's actually taking it seriously. The time hasn't come yet, I suppose. I mean, when at least somebody realizes that Capitalism is a way to nowhere. Communism is not a fairy tale. That's what I'm telling you.

Pisis said:
plus not mentioning the fact that you're depiciting a man who is responsible for over 43,000,000 people death and other tens of Millions of destroyed lives...

Prove that with facts. I don't accept imaginary numbers.

Pisis said:
Your fight.

It sure is...[/i]
 
There is power in belief no matter what you spiritually believe in ,
Comrade Rusty Chopper , Vault Boy salute to you :wink:
 
[Rusty Chopper said:
]The main problem of Communism is that nobody's actually taking it seriously. The time hasn't come yet, I suppose. I mean, when at least somebody realizes that Capitalism is a way to nowhere. Communism is not a fairy tale. That's what I'm telling you.
I know and I think the thoughts of Marx were great. But it has NOTHING to do with Stalinism though --- which you are propagating. Please bear in mind that Stalinism was a complete croocked ideology of Communism....

[Rusty Chopper said:
]Prove that with facts. I don't accept imaginary numbers.
Is enough that I talked with several people who were arrested in Siberia for a heck of years JUST because they fled from the Nazis during WWII? And other dictatorships killed innocent people just in case of their paranoia and in the "name of the Party".......

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Does it really matter??

The way the world is not perfect under capitalism... But neither will it be in a Communist state...

We just have to put up with what we have...

The main problem of Communism is that nobody's actually taking it seriously.

So very true... It's just that the majority of world powers in this day and age are capitalist and would thwart any chance of a Communist uprising occuring...

But economically, Communism tears apart countries. For the simple reason that humans are greedy. No one can live on a similar wage to others and share belongings that are owned by the State. Look at Russia's economy now, it may be growing fairly steadily, but that is due to it's transitional economic stance. Which means coming from a planned economy (under Communism) to a free market economy (leaning toward Capitalism).

There will never be a government alignment that will be beneficial to everyone, thus we do what we do due to the circumstances.
 
Pisis said:
I know and I think the thoughts of Marx were great.

This is the crucial point. In the beginning Communist theory is quite realistic. I'm not sure about Leninism, but Marxism is quite reliable. If you know what I mean.

Pisis said:
Please bear in mind that Stalinism was a complete croocked ideology of Communism....

100% true. Stalinism has little connection to Communism.
It is impossible to construct Communism without democracy. Tyranny's something very far away.

Pisis said:
which you are propagating

Damn. I'll think of it.

Pisis said:
Is enough that I talked with several people who were arrested in Siberia for a heck of years JUST because they fled from the Nazis during WWII? And other dictatorships killed innocent people just in case of their paranoia and in the "name of the Party".......

Yeah. Injustice is everywhere. But there's no point in accusing Communism alone.

Hitler was not a Communist. But It didn't mean all he was doing was watering flowers and helping old women cross streets.

The US did not support Communism when they nuked Japan.

If you count losses caused by Communism why not be punctual to the very end and count the victims of Capitalism? Eh? And then compare the toll taken by both systems.

Communism killed 100 million… Who invented that crap? Doesn’t look convincing at all. Tomorrow it will be claimed 200 million. And in a fortnight somebody’ll say it’s 300 million. And he is sure to succeed and find crowds of supporters. But I’ll be the first. My favorite number is 1,000 million people!

duckman said:
The way the world is not perfect under capitalism... But neither will it be in a Communist state...

It won’t be perfect. But I’m telling you, it will be *better*.

duckman said:
We just have to put up with what we have...

Put up?! Never!!

duckman said:
Look at Russia's economy now, it may be growing fairly steadily, but that is due to it's transitional economic stance.

It’s not growing. Every second factory in Russia is a heap of decayed rubbish. The might of the Russian army is a fake. Because Putin’s in the Kremlin, and he’s not interested in a strong Russia. Neither was his ancestor Yeltsin.

This Capitalist revival in Russia’s a false way. It can completely destroy the country within several years. The scale of catastrophe that was perestroika and the successive breakup of the USSR is unprecedented.
_____________
And I terribly apologize, phomax, for my excessive offtop!
 
Great link Kotario...I'm bookmarking it.

Could this be moved out from the Fan Art section? Its turning into a debate about politics.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
[Rusty Chopper said:
]This is the crucial point. In the beginning Communist theory is quite realistic. I'm not sure about Leninism, but Marxism is quite reliable. If you know what I mean.

Oh really? Give me an instance of Marxism, y'know, actually working.

[Rusty Chopper said:
]It is impossible to construct Communism without democracy.

That's hardly what Marx said, dude.

[Rusty Chopper said:
]If you count losses caused by Communism why not be punctual to the very end and count the victims of Capitalism? Eh? And then compare the toll taken by both systems.

Except that you can't do that point-for-point, because capitalism isn't a world-view or form of state, communism is. I'm sure there have been capitalist dictators killing quite a lot of people since the invention of modern-day capitalism (by Smith, I suppose), but I doubt the numbers equal communism.

Few people come near Stalin and Mao in death-tolls and Hitler wasn't a capitalist.

[Rusty Chopper said:
]It’s not growing.

7% a year is growth.

[Rusty Chopper said:
]Every second factory in Russia is a heap of decayed rubbish.

And every third one is new, country in transition.

[Rusty Chopper said:
]The might of the Russian army is a fake.

Duh, who cares, it's not like you really need it except for swatting Chechens anyway.

[Rusty Chopper said:
]This Capitalist revival in Russia’s a false way. It can completely destroy the country within several years. The scale of catastrophe that was perestroika and the successive breakup of the USSR is unprecedented.

Hah, for someone disliking Putin you swallow his crap quite willingly.

[Rusty Chopper said:
]And I terribly apologize, phomax, for my excessive offtop!

Yeh, splitted.
 
Marxism? I kind of like some of neo-marxism, but that's because I think it's a more honest appraisal of the role of the state with regard to social classes. Let's see the alienation of workers, the determinism vested in capitalist structures that rewards capitalist efficiency even at the expense of exploitation of workers? That said, the notion of social class and class conflict wasn't wholly a creation of Marx- you get quite a nice bit of class conflict with Weber as well.

Communism- the use of an ideological agenda to sustain a system of totalitarianism? Not a good thing.

But Kotario- that list isn't quite complete. It misses a lot of other nastiness that took place in smaller corners of the world.

One of the problems of communism was that, as an ideology, it became religion and the followers violently dogmatic. One sees the same in capitalist systems as well. Faith in an ideology is not a viable substitute to outcome of working your own head to understand the world around you.
 
I don't believe in Communism as a potential utopia - human nature just won't allow it, there will always be ambitious people or people who are driven to have power over others so there will never be any utopia where everyone is equal and lives in harmony.

As for communism as a form of government, China has already proved that it's viable in a way; the problem is, it's only viable if it's adaptable, and if it adapts to the rest of the world as China is doing (ie capitalism and cultural influences) then it isn't really "pure" communism anymore but is instead evolving towards something else.

Bottom line, due to human nature communism will always be a government of repression and corruption. There's no getting around it.
 
Montez- you are assuming that China is really communist. If communism existed in China under Mao, it looked a lot like a totalitarian non-market state that was run by a strongman who regularly purged his highly ideologically committed cadres.

If you assume that communism continues to exist in China, than you are talking about a state with a lot of low performing state owned enterprises (which essentially providing labor and avoiding unemployment) while the same party cadres now utilize their party connections to build a capitalist edifice over what was a non-market structure. We can leave alone the problems of corruption and nepotism. In that sense you have a country run by a minority party that elects a group of leaders into an oligarchy, and that this oligarchy runs through a mix of capitalist relationships, a socialist agenda of market intervention, a mercantilistic approach to regional dominance + foreign market penetatrion (as in Africa) + domestic protection. Add that to a strong nationalistic agenda to maintain party legitimacy.

Let's add that up- oligarchical, one party state, anti-democratic, ideological, nationalistic, and a mercantilistic mix of capitalism and socialism.
= sounds like corporatist facism to me.

No I may be somewhat sympathetic to some neo-marxist scholarship, but communism as ideology or form of government- bullshit.
 
Communism as Montez uses it is a misnomer: Marxist or Leninist would be more accurate. 'Communist States' is a misnomer: Marxian Communism would have no state because everyone's material wants and needs are fulfilled, making government useless.

Meh. Marx was an incredibly intelligent guy in a lot of respects, and if I was a contemporary of him I might, just might some find some of his ideas persuasive. But the very cornerstone of Marxian thought, the Labor theory of value, is more dated then Creationism is in the natural sciences.

I also think it is important to recognize that the biggest difference between Communism and Capitalism is that Capitalism is natural. No philosopher or scientist at any point decoded to create a more ethical, productive world by tearing down trade barriers and keeping tax rates low: this situation evolved simply because it was by far the most effective at creating and sustaining economic growth. Communism was never anything more then a cry to return to a past (that of Primitive Communism) that never existed(interestingly, this would appear to make Communism a 'fundamentalist' ideology in the same way that Islamofascism, Fascism and the Nostalgic Romanticist are and where:they all preach a return to a glorified fantasy of the past). Unlike Capitalism, neither Communism nor Socialism was adopted in times of peace because it was proven to be far more efficient in the country in question, but because it was deemed rationally superior or more 'ethical'. The study of Economics must always be grounded in scientific examination of economies, not in moral outrage or philosophy.

I'd also like to qute John Maynard Keynes:

Marxian Socialism must always remain a portent to the historians of Opinion— how a doctrine so illogical and so dull can have exercised so powerful and enduring an influence over the minds of men, and, through them, the events of history.
o The End of Laissez-faire (1926)
 
The best result could be to turn an anarchic state in to a communistic state, but as the time stands, there aren't many anarchic states around.
Kharn said:
Hitler wasn't a capitalist.
Yeah, he just got the jews killed cause they were bankers, so they had lots of money. :)
 
Jarno Mikkola said:
The best result could be to turn an anarchic state in to a communistic state, but as the time stands, there aren't many anarchic states around.
Kharn said:
Hitler wasn't a capitalist.
Yeah, he just got the jews killed cause they were bankers, so they had lots of money. :)

How can you have "anarchistic" state?
 
well first you need to get a state somehow
and they you just have to call it "anarchistic"
doesnt matter if it isnt...

its like... oral sex..
it may not quite be sex
but it's still called sex..
so no... it wasnt her first time...

or the communist states..
they never really had to have communism
in fact it never really existed... anywhere
 
I still believe that someday people might become somewhat equalized in terms of lifestyle, which I think was the most attractive point in communism anyways. Given the right politics and enough technology to reduce the effective cost in manpower of labor, people could live as more or less as political and economic equals. It COULD happen, but the ruling classes of the world as general principle don't want to see it happen.

Kormy said:
How can you have "anarchistic" state?

Basically, the citizens of a contiguous political and cultural area decide (Social Contract style) to have anarchy, under varying degrees of stewardship. (You'd probably still need some guy that is the "President" to talk to other countries, though he'd hardly be more than a "First Citizen".) Decentralizing politcal power to the point of an anarchistic society is the general idea.
 
welsh said:
But Kotario- that list isn't quite complete. It misses a lot of other nastiness that took place in smaller corners of the world.

The Alphabetical Index is a bit more complete. That was the "Big Four - the First and Second World Wars, Communist China and the Soviet Union" list.
 
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