Dutch coffeeshops: a thing of the past? Dystopia!!!!!

[Kyuu]

actually, smikers and fat people are good for the economy. they die earlier; what costs most is keeping gomers alive who need 24/7 care and treatment.

Might be a valid point if smokers and obese people simply keeled over. Of course, that's not the case. Smokers generally die slowly of cancer and/or heart disease. Obese people generally die slowly of heart disease, diabetes-related diseases, lay in a hospital forever after a stroke/heart-attack while machines keep them "alive," etc.

I'm not one to say that everything that's bad for people should be forbidden by law. If someone wants to kill themselves for a cheap little "high," that's their problem. However, I have little sympathy for those who think they have the right to indulge in their bad habits whenever and wherever they want regardless of the impact it has on those around them.

 

[boer_kameel]

actually, smikers and fat people are good for the economy. they die earlier; what costs most is keeping gomers alive who need 24/7 care and treatment.

actually, smikers and fat people are good for the economy. they die earlier; what costs most is keeping gomers alive who need 24/7 care and treatment.

Might be a valid point if smokers and obese people simply keeled over. Of course, that's not the case. Smokers generally die slowly of cancer and/or heart disease.

Where do you guys think the high price of tobacco comes from? That's right kids, that's all taxes. So I think smokers contribute to the health support quite enough.
I do agree that some public places should be left smoke-free, people still have to be able to choose to inhale smoke or not.

I can confirm that drug tourism is getting completely out of hand.
I can't cross the street without some Belgian/French/German/English/Polish/whatever dude asking me where the nearest coffeeshop is.

Bloody annoying that.

There's also talks of implementing a city-wide card which would be required to visit a coffeshop, and only issued to people living in Eindhoven.

Yeah, I also frown upon my fellow countrymen for doing that. I spot my own shop, and enjoy wandering around a bit and getting to know my Northernly neighbours town a bit better.
While I'm doing that, I often jump into some nice eating establishment. Or, go shop for some PC stuff, or clothes, as people in The Netherlands pay a bit less sales tax then we do.

Bottom line: Don't just drive there to get your fix. That way economy will be helped a bit too. As Alex said, towns profit from the drug tourists too.

I think it will help if they place some shops near the borders. Tourist will stop there, get the stuff and begone. Only the people looking for some social interaction will go into the cities, and I don't think the Dutch would mind that kind of visitors.

Although chances are quite high that police control would be sharpened at those new locations, so that plan may fail alltogether...

Well I just smoke once per 2 weeks or so, and when I go for that once-a-month visit, I frequent the same place, and stick around to chat a bit. Just like sitting in a normal pub, and I assume it doesn't bother anyone.

 

[SuAside]

Where do you guys think the high price of tobacco comes from? That's right kids, that's all taxes. So I think smokers contribute to the health support quite enough.

smokers cost a system like the belgian one a lot more than they actually bring in, boerke. so no, not quite enough.

 

[quant]

Great Thread. If one feels like a True Individual, one simply has to make one's 'own' internal rules. And if one thinks, politicians are right, then one is nothing more than a gregarious animal without any evolutionary success.

Regarding topic: why are cigarettes and alcohol allowed whereas the big, bad C is not? Did you ever ask?

It is simply (US-)Politics dictated and spread around the globe. And an idiotic 'mass' lacking everything, mostly an IQ above 70. Stoners actually don't care enough to fight the sytsem and never will due the very nature of the 'drug'.

That is quite unfortunate.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Alcohol has been part of human culture for thousands of years. Medieval labourers drank several liters of beer daily. English farm-hand during 18th century would drink a gallon of hard cider daily.
Also, drinking water wasn't usually that good of an idea.

Life was hard and monotonius, being wasted was a pretty good idea. Besides, when your job was just hacking rocks at a quarry or cutting wood with primitive iron tools or cutting wheat, it didn't really matter if you were drunk or sober.

Dangers of alcohol have been promoted only from 19th century onwards - more and more people living in urban areas closely together, along with more and more people working jobs that require certain amount of finesse and precision, ie better be sober. Of course, the issue is not that closely tied together, I'm making a sweeping generalization here.

Tobacco, arrived to Europe from America and at first it was the priviledge of upper-class gentlemen, as hot chocolate (later turned into coffee) was for upper-class ladies. Still, it has been around for 500 years or so. Dangers of smoking have only really ben realized after the 2nd World War. Since it's not as deeply rooted in human culture, we are now seeing a reversal of roles as smoking/tobacco is slowly being pushed away. Luckily for the tobacco firms, there are vast markets in undeveloped countries.

Pot/weed/grass/whatever mild drugs on the other hand came to Europe pretty late. It doesn't really matter that natives chewed coca-leaves or that ancient assyrians smoked it during religious sermons. What matters is that it never quite managed to get popular enough like the other two. And emerged during a time when drug-abuse (thanks to opium and laudanum) was frowned upon - similarly to alcoholism and general drunkenness.

Did I make any sense?

 

[Roflcore]

Did I make any sense?

This certainly didn't.

Medieval labourers drank several liters of beer daily.

As for me: I'd like to see those bordershops closed, because a lot of germans get hooked at the border I guess. Once addicted some totally lose it. We already are at the point were illegal production in germany is far more effective then legal production and smuggling in the netherlands. tells you something about the amount requiered to supply the germans. anything to lower these numbers is certainly a good idea. don't want to dictaded what the dutch have to do, its their country after all, but it affects us too, so we need some sort of deal I guess. removing some shops at the boarder, like around venlo or so would be alright for everybody I guess.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Did I make any sense?

This certainly didn't.

Medieval labourers drank several liters of beer daily.

During medieval times, labourers (workers under direct ownership of a feudal lord, ie working at a castle, tending it's cattle and/or fields etc) received anywhere between 4-8 litres of beer daily.

 

[SuAside]

do note that that was so called "table beer", which cannot even be compared to a pint of lager nowadays...

 

[quant]

GarfunkL

Failed

Roflcore

Failed.

Hooked up? Dude, did you ever touch a joint, lol? 'Hooked up'...man...that made my day, thanks. Germany actually has a lot more issues with alcohol, FYI. People DIE because of it, you know. I would't recommend to forbid it, however.

'I'd like to see this border shops closed'...who are you? It is certainly not you to take any decisions. Fortunately. I could get very, very nasty when reading such 'guardian-talk'. And honestly: if you are Chinese (or living there), you should think about your words even more.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Suaside, yes but it was still drunk in large quantities so people were not sober.

quant: It wasn't about "alcohol is good for!" since obviously it's not that healthy in the long run - it was an atttempt to partly answer your question:

why are cigarettes and alcohol allowed whereas the big, bad C is not? Did you ever ask?

Especially alcohol is more immersed in our culture. There's more to it than that, naturally.

 

[Roflcore]

Hooked up? Dude, did you ever touch a joint, lol?

nope

'Hooked up'...man...that made my day, thanks.

I have seen about 6-7 people getting addicted. I know it is not a physical addiction, but that doesn't mean its not dangerous. It is, those people ruined their life. Some of them were even too young to realize/really know what they are doing. This might sound "LOL" so someone who lacks experience, but seeing this several time really suck.

Germany actually has a lot more issues with alcohol, FYI. People DIE because of it, you know.

Ofc I know. But what does that have to do with weed? We have one problem so we ignore all the others because they are maybe not so bad? Great logic, really. Are you a politican?

'I'd like to see this border shops closed'...who are you? It is certainly not you to take any decisions.

Please read my post properly, than you will see that I adressed this issue.

And honestly: if you are Chinese (or living there), you should think about your words even more.

No I am not, yes I do. Why should I think about my words even more?

 

[quant]

nope

See, you have no idea. And you 'have seen people getting addicted'?

I tell you something about 'addiction'. It is in us all and I honestly

DON'T GIVE A DAMN FUCK

about a possible addiction of my neighbor, friend, mother, aunt or sister. Except for some truly harmful 'drugs' maybe. And I am talking 'medicine', you know, and not what YOU think 'drugs' are. You really sound like a 100% uninformed Snob with your 6-7 addcited people story really.

Maybe you are one of the lucky (?) ones who don't get addicted at all?

I seriously cannot list all my addictions, really not. Believe me, there are some to be found in my brain for sure. And I do not like all of them. But I am working on it. You however know shit with your 6-7 people got addicted story.

And no, I am not a politician. I like Nietzsche however. That should answer you question. But then again...I don't think so.

LOL

Why should I think about my words even more?

Do I really have to explain that one. I mean, you said, you are living there, no? Maybe for two long, so you aren't able to see the wood for the trees, maybe? Just my very own thought.

I like the history of China by the way.

 

[Sander]

Keep it civil, quant.

Also, roflcore, marijuana is provably not nearly as addictive as most other substances. Hell, chocolate is practically more addictive.

The addiction is entirely psychological and the vast majority of people who smoke marijuana do not let it become a problem. To argue that marijuana would be a bigger burden on society than alcohol or tobacco is ridiculous considering addiction rates and harm caused.

So, you've seen people 'fucked up' by marijuana? You've seen 6-7 people destroy their lives on marijuana?
Nope, sorry, don't believe it. People don't destroy their lives because of marijuana. Marijuana may accelerate or exacerbate problems, but it doesn't cause much.

I've seen people get more fucked up on alcohol than anyone could get from marijuana.
To keep allowing alcohol but banning marijuana is nothing but hypocrisy. And banning alcohol doesn't work, because it is so ingrained in society.
The same goes for marijuana, which is a part of society for many people, and not nearly as problematic as many other substances.

As for me: I'd like to see those bordershops closed, because a lot of germans get hooked at the border I guess. Once addicted some totally lose it. We already are at the point were illegal production in germany is far more effective then legal production and smuggling in the netherlands. tells you something about the amount requiered to supply the germans. anything to lower these numbers is certainly a good idea. don't want to dictaded what the dutch have to do, its their country after all, but it affects us too, so we need some sort of deal I guess. removing some shops at the boarder, like around venlo or so would be alright for everybody I guess.

Yes, because idiot Germans should certainly limit the rights of Dutch citizens. Closing shops in Venlo won't stop Germans from smoking weed, and will mostly inconvenience Dutch citizens not the Germans.

You could certainly regulate coffeeshops to disallow foreign customers, you could try instating measures to prevent Germans from entering the Netherlands for drug tourism purposes, or you could instate heavier penalties and more frequent controls on smuggling. But closing shops won't solve any problems and won't do much at all.

 

[Nullifidian]

For those that aren't aware, Marijuana was banned in the USA by the paper lobby.

Well, the paper AND logging lobbies.


You see, paper and logging were starting to lose money to hemp farmers in Mexico. Bigtime. So they lobbied Congress to have hemp banned. The thing is, nothing is bad about hemp. Nothing.

So how did it wind up getting banned? Via a fear campaign now referred to as "Reefer Madness". Various groups created advertisements demonizing Marijuana. They attributed all kinds of insane properties to it, saying it will kill you instantly, or turn you into a psychotic raving lunatic rapist murderer. This got the generally ignorant public afraid of it. Until then, it was thought of generally as a minority drug (typically used by African Americans and Mexican Americans). Once demonized, there was widespread support for banning it.

But the bill they wrote didn't ban Marijuana, it banned ALL CANNIBIS. Even those in the cannibis family that have no possible use as a recreational drug. Thus they were able to ban the REAL target: hemp.

So why is hemp still illegal despite not being a drug? Oh right, because paper and logging are still very strong lobbies and "think of the children" is still an effective <fake> argument.



In reality, marijuana is less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco. While the concentrated smoke from MJ is a more potent cancer source molecule for molecule, it isn't consumed in anywhere near the same amounts. For a user to smoke an entire joint alone isn't terribly common, let alone a pack; whereas tobacco smokers routinely smoke several cigs in a row without flinching. On a per effective dose level, MJ is a mere fraction of the danger of tobacco cigs.

I personally don't like smoke; whether from MJ or Tobacco. I think both stink horribly, make being in that area highly unpleasant, and after prolonged exposure make my clothes smell positively awful. MJ has the added effect of making me vomit. It is a very difficult issue to address when concerned with rights.

I do NOT think smoking of ANY kind should be allowed in public areas. It is clear violation of the rights of non-smokers. In private establishments, theoretically it should be allowed. One might say "but what about non-smokers?" to which I say, don't frequent the establishment if you don't like it. To those saying "what about workers there" I simply say, then don't work there. The problem however is that certain businesses would simply universally permit it. Bars, coffeehouses, etc. would all universally serve the stuff and allow others as well. Why? because it would bring in extra business. Those that didn't wouldn't be able to compete as well. So while in theory it's easy enough to say "don't go there", in reality, "there" would encompass every single coffeehouse, bar, and restaurant. That is not acceptable.

So I think a real solution is the way liquor licenses are handled. A certain number of "MJ" licenses and "tobacco" licenses are made available for purchase in towns. They are bought by the highest bidder. This limits the number of establishments that allow smoking and thereby gives an adequate number of alternatives for those who do not smoke and wish not be exposed to second hand smoke. It also gives adequate choices to those who do not wish to work in such na environment.

 

[Starseeker]

Personally, I think air pollution kills more people than smoking.

Cancer isn't a disease and the causes are numerous depending what kind of problems you have.

Instead of the anti-pot campaign, I think the anti-smoking campaign has done its job well. I see numerous intelligent and probably well travelled posters regurgitate basically what the campaign literature has been printing all these years. Tobacco companies are viewed as evil incarnate while car companies are getting billion dollar bail outs and French wine vineyards are getting applause and rewards.

I like my Romanee Conti' as much as the next guy. Just don't tell me that BS that it won't give me liver problems or alcoholism if I have the genetic predisposition towards it. Don't get me started on the car companies. If all the big fat execs takes a pay cut and get 1 USD per year for 3-5 years, they probably wouldn't need any money to bail them out. It isn't our problem! Our business strategies and big pay checks and golf rounds have nothing to do with it!! Air pollution is bad but it won't cause cancer nor bleed billions of dollars of health care money!

 

[Roflcore]

I am kinda.. frustrated, because no one reads my post and just reply to something I never said, so I guess I will stop replying until you do (for e.g.: I never said that weed is more harmful then alcohol - why should I reply to you sanders?! Same goes for the german/netherland issue)

Why should I think about my words even more?

Do I really have to explain that one. I mean, you said, you are living there, no? Maybe for two long, so you aren't able to see the wood for the trees, maybe? Just my very own thought.

I like the history of China by the way.

Yes you have to explain it.

 

[||FLea||]

I agree with the pub thing. now instead of coming home smelling of booze and cigarettes, I spend most of the night being able to smell some dirty buggers BO. yuck. should make them go outside as well.

Forget the pot and smoking... in Australia we can't even get a R18 classification passed for games. there's no way anything else is going to become legal any time in the near future. I can only see it getting worse.

There is nothing worse than turning 18 and going yay I'm an adult now, then in a few years time realizing you really don't get to make the choices of whats appropriate as an adult. well cept for pr0n, booze and voting. (which i'm sure I'm getting a fine for because i didn't vote last time we were supposed to).

 

[Sander]

I am kinda.. frustrated, because no one reads my post and just reply to something I never said, so I guess I will stop replying until you do (for e.g.: I never said that weed is more harmful then alcohol - why should I reply to you sanders?! Same goes for the german/netherland issue)

Did I say anywhere that you did say alcohol is less harmful than weed? Nope, I didn't, so perhaps you should try reading what I am writing instead of whining about people's responses.

And if you don't want people responding the way they are, be more clear. Yes, I noticed your claim that you don't want to impede on the rights of Dutch citizens. Yet your proposed solution *still does that*. That's what I'm responding to.

 

[Roflcore]

I know that it does that, and I do have a problem with that, but I do not see much of a different solution. Your ideas are nice on paper, but don't really work. The border is already heavily guarded/patroled/searched, I lived in Moenchengladbach for 20 years and every now and then did drive to Holland to get some nice fries, flowers or cheap gas - so I do know about that stuff.
You also need to understand that your laws affect us as much as our laws affect you. Most of our laws are almost the same, but some aren't and that causes problems with such open boarders. I think the idea of open boarders is great and I love Schenge, but the weed is a problem. I know it is really drastic but how would you react if small arms were legal in germany? Like really easy to buy? Of course you would close your boarders immediatly. Weed is not that dangerous, but still illegal in germany, so we and you have to do something.
But before we continue we need some facts we can all agree upon. Personally I say weed has some longterm effects like the difficulty to concentrate or remember if you use it regulary. Shortterm effects appear to happen when you are a real junky who smokes every day (maybe even several times). Do you agree on that? Because if not and you say weed is barely harmful than their is no real need for further discussion. I have read data that stats it is harmful and I have also read it is not harmful, from my personal experience I say it is, if you disagree its rather pointless to discuss the whole weed/boardertrade discussion, because if it wasn't harmful I would not have any problems with it.

And I'd like to ask: Why do you say something like "alcohol is far more dangerous then weed" when nobody said otherwise? Stating the obvious might be useful at the beginning of a discussion, but at this point I'd rather think this was meant for me, because I don't see a reason why you would write it otherwise.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

And I'd like to ask: Why do you say something like "alcohol is far more dangerous then weed" when nobody said otherwise? Stating the obvious might be useful at the beginning of a discussion, but at this point I'd rather think this was meant for me, because I don't see a reason why you would write it otherwise.

The point is why is a more harmful substance legal while a less harmful substance is illegal? Law needs to be consistent and this inconsistency needs to be addressed first and foremost. If marijuana is going to be illegal then so should alcohol, if alcohol is going to be legal then so should marijuana. Once you solve that inconsistency you can start talking about how to enforce it.

Marijuana is harmful, no one has denied that, the question is whether or not it should be illegal. I understand and agree with disallowing smoking in buildings or requiring establishments to have nonsmoking sections (the better solution IMO) and disallowing people to drive under the influence but banning it outright is a mistake. If marijuana is banned for the harmful effects that it can have on people who abuse it then shouldn't fast food be banned for the same reason (especially in the states)?