Just because businesses and capitalism are good for some things, doesn't mean that everything they do is good.Mad Max RW said:
East and West propaganda vs reality
- Thread starter Gonzalez
- Start date
Mad Max RW
Mildly Dipped
Oh I totally agree about those problems. Currently one of my favorite states, Pennsylvania, is being torn apart because of the federal government's forced collapse of their coal mining industry. Whole towns are becoming abandoned. The state will shrivel up and die. Real issues like that go ignored while the vocal spoiled minority hogs all the attention with unfocused nonsensical complaints about things they have little understanding. See: Occupy Wall Street
I agree. I never said it was all good.
Sander said:
I agree. I never said it was all good.
Mad Max RW said:
Like I mentioned before, ignoring real problems is _sound business_, and market liberal countries, are _all about business_ ;D
They are business decisons that shut down factories etc, they move the industries, or make them more efficient. These are all business ideas. People lose their jobs, factories are moved out of the country even, so - it becomes evident - this isn't even about what's good for the country anymore! It's pure business. Pure income. Pure entrepreneurism.
Real problems do not create an income, and untill they do, they will be ignored. Problems that DO create an income - somehow - are made a big deal out of.
Occupy wall street was a nice little distraction, if I may be so cynical, it allowed all the upset people to feel like they were bringing down goliath, then finally they were tired and wanted to go home, and felt satisfied with their little war. No real harm was done to business, and it calmed everyone down a bit. Now people are sick of hating businesses, at least on the same scale as during occupy.
"Wanna hang out in front of the bank singing protest songs?"
"Nah... "
Of course, this does not cover all nations, and is a "horror example" of countries that have dedicated all their politics to market liberalism. The final ideal is that the country ceases to exist, for fragments of privately owned venues. That of course is a unlikely worst case scenario, but still shows how far that kind of business-focused ideal is willing to go. When money rules, everything else comes second, including entire nations.
/commie-talk.
The truth is, if we really really really wanted justice, then components to make computer parts would suddenly cost 10 times the previous price - shit - congolese miners suddenly got boots and helmets, and real paychecks!
Computer: 100 000 dollars, or whatever, idunno, but we would have to really be prepared for real change.
Gonzalez
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Mad Max RW said:
If you are referring to my thread in general, let me explain to you where I come from and why I was asking what I was asking and why was it focused on the DDR documentary.
During the Cold War the US and the USSR divided the world in two sides, and made the other side look like absolute pure evil.
Argentina was on the capitalist side, and even when the capitalists were all about "freedom", "the free world", "defending our way of life", truth is that Argentina was a free world dictatorship (yeah, that's right), supported by the US, trained by the CIA in counterinsurgency and torture, and while everyone here was thinking "look at all those poor people in the Eastern Bloc, living without freedom and in fear from their evil authoritarian governments" our military government was killing and torturing around 30.000 people just because there was the slightest hint they might probably be related to communist subversion.
No one wanted to jump the wall, we lived in a consumer's paradise, making money in the stock market, destroying our economy in the sake of personal benefit against the benefits of our nation as a whole, and those who "disappeared" was because they must have done something to deserve it.
Then after the consumerist free world dictatorship was over, the consumerist free world democracy started, and we ended up pretty much like Greece is today, or worse. This was back in 2001.
Now we re much better off, while the rest of the world is in crisis because they want to make all the mistakes we made for themselves, like listening to the IMF.
All that aside, what I was more interested in was in hearing from people that remembers how life was in the eastern bloc to see if it was so evil as they wanted us to believe over here.
Argentina was on the capitalist side, and even when the capitalists were all about "freedom", "the free world", "defending our way of life", truth is that Argentina was a free world dictatorship (yeah, that's right), supported by the US, trained by the CIA in counterinsurgency and torture, and while everyone here was thinking "look at all those poor people in the Eastern Bloc, living without freedom and in fear from their evil authoritarian governments" our military government was killing and torturing around 30.000 people just because there was the slightest hint they might probably be related to communist subversion.
Sounds almost like the US under McCarthy era and the the reign of J. Edgar Hoover
Though if you want to really get in to it, I would suggest to PM Brother None, if he has time he might tell you where to look for or answer you a few questions. From other topics I would say, that he is one of those people that knows the most about Russia at least. Maybe even the east block states. He was a few times in Russia and he is very knowledgable as far as Russian and Soviet history goes. Particularly as far as the timeline of the cold war is concerned. The Soviet society and how their position was with the system.
Sounds almost like the US under McCarthy era and the the reign of J. Edgar Hoover
Though if you want to really get in to it, I would suggest to PM Brother None, if he has time he might tell you where to look for or answer you a few questions. From other topics I would say, that he is one of those people that knows the most about Russia at least. Maybe even the east block states. He was a few times in Russia and he is very knowledgable as far as Russian and Soviet history goes. Particularly as far as the timeline of the cold war is concerned. The Soviet society and how their position was with the system.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Hoover never tortured or killed anyone. You're thinking of the Bush/Obama admin. Edward R. Murrow never got audited by the IRS either. Hoover was handcuffed compared to today.Crni Vuk said:
Crni Vuk said:
Perhaps they are worse than a Soviet authority figure. But a usual citizen? That's as low as complete poverty can get. Anything beyond is, pretty much, eating grass and sleeping outside.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
zegh8578 said:
To add to this, I think a common error people do (not only here) is put public vs private.
These days, especially at the big business/national government level, they're so closely tied together that the distinction becomes increasingly hard to seriously make to me. Politicians need backing and money from businesses, businesses need friends in high places to snatch up them juicy contracts. It's not corruption as you usually understand it, but there comes a time where lobbying turns into open influence trafficking and nobody bats an eyelash because everybody involved benefits from it, including the media that are owned by said big businesses which helps in giving them a giant upper hand. I see it in the US, I see it here in Canada to a lesser extent, I saw it in France. Only barrier I see to that in Canada is (ironically) the state-owned TV; they're not unbiased, but they're much more willing to make some serious journalism and analysis than crap like MSNBC and Fox News. That's the kind of thing that keeps your political sphere relatively clean.
As for the Cold War, it was a case of grey vs dark grey. The Soviets were bad (especially under Stalin, they calmed down afterwards) but the Americans were hardly angels either. Latin America especially suffered under their influence, Argentina is a great example, and who knows how many other countries that had their government influenced or toppled, some of them burgeoning democracies. Calling in the Marines to put down rebellious quasi-slaves working for United Fruit. It hasn't stopped either; look at Egypt. Morsi's government was not exactly amazing, but a military coup is pretty damn much, and of course watching the Western world make mental gymnastics to avoid calling it a coup was simultaneously funny and sad. Freedom and democracy, so long as you swing our way, eh?
That being said, obviously the average standard of living in the US was better than in the USSR, that much is not even up for questioning I think. And the Americans never had anything like the Purges or the Holodomor (albeit they did have mini-gulags for them evil Japs during WW2). But again, that was mostly during Stalin, afterwards Soviet leadership took steps to improve the lot of their citizenry, especially Krustchchev. It wasn't enough, of course, but at least they tried. And the whole place fell because Gorbatchev took the reforms too far; that tells you rather a lot about the stability of such a state, sadly.
well, that depends what you see as "torture". Maybe people have not been send in some prison camp, but they definitely had a lot of fascistic tendencies back then, destroying the life of countless people just because they had a more socialist view on life, not even communistic.Cimmerian Nights said:
Ilosar said:
I'd attribute that more to the ridiculously low oil prices at the time.
to believe that it was a single event that caused the colapse of the Sovietunion would be like saying the Germans lost WW2 only because of one single factor or that the Roman empire collapsed only because of the last Emperor or one single event when the reality is usually that it has many different reasons of which some might be more important then others. The whole Society of the Sovietunion changed already after the 60s, with new generations becoming more and more disillusioned with the communistic system. It isnt like people didnt believed in communistic ideals just as how many americans believed eventually in the american way of life before they either woke up or new generations rejecting that idea.
Societies change, new generations come up and deal with the system in their own ways. Brother None would know a lot more about it since you could say that he is the closest you can get to a professional about it at least as far as the usual forumer user goes here, but to narrow down the fall of the Soviet Union only or mainly to Gorbatschov or the Oil prices would be rather inacurate. Particulary during the 60s and 70s you had already a shift in the Soviet society, even if people didnt talked about it. It was a long evolution and many events have lead to the colapse.
Societies change, new generations come up and deal with the system in their own ways. Brother None would know a lot more about it since you could say that he is the closest you can get to a professional about it at least as far as the usual forumer user goes here, but to narrow down the fall of the Soviet Union only or mainly to Gorbatschov or the Oil prices would be rather inacurate. Particulary during the 60s and 70s you had already a shift in the Soviet society, even if people didnt talked about it. It was a long evolution and many events have lead to the colapse.
In some parts the Cold War never ended.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125729481234926717.html
Well, at lest not for some red deer.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125729481234926717.html
Well, at lest not for some red deer.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Crni Vuk said:
I'm not saying old Gorby was the sole culprit, but his reforms did allow the whole cracked edifice to crash down more than anything else IMO. of course the USSR was already heading towards this course from at least the late 70's, it's just that no one else knew it because they were so secretive.
yeah, but I always had the feeling that Gorbi actually tried his best to turn the whole situation in a good direction. He probably did a lot of things wrong, and I dont agree with the decisions regarding some former Soviet states when Gorbi decided to send the army in to clear the situation ... but considering the possible out come if someone else would have been in his position ... I think he did still a decent if not really a great job considering the circumstances. I mean it really could have all ended in a different way ... with a war.