Fallout 2 mod EcCo Gameplay Overhaul (new version for RPU)

I keep trying this mod, but always come up with issues.

Is there any reason why I wouldn't be able to save my game? So far it's the most stable it's been, but not being able to save is quite the hassle. The only error I get is : "Error - unable to save game!"


I really want to give this mod a shot, if for nothing more than the bounty hunting quests, but I always run into little problems (odd damage modifiers, missing texts, saving/loading issues, etc...). I'm very aware that I could be causing the problems (bad install, not clearing old data), but if you guys have any ideas as to my current saving issue I would be grateful, as this is the closest I've come to getting the game how I want it.
 
Could you post your latest savegame? What version are you using? What other mods?
Do you experience this problem if you load an earlier save?
 
huh... I restarted the game and my computer, and it's saving just fine now. I'm about to give it a run through!



I think it may have to do with the critter mods I use. I make a few of them tougher... but for some reason the game likes to write over them every now and then, even if they are read only. When this happens, I usually have to just start over. It's quite annoying. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.
 
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huh... I restarted the game and my computer, and it's saving just fine now. I'm about to give it a run through!



I think it may have to do with the critter mods I use. I make a few of them tougher... but for some reason the game likes to write over them every now and then, even if they are read only. When this happens, I usually have to just start over. It's quite annoying. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

E&R also made quite a few critters tougher, I wouldn't worry about it too much :)
 
Is there any reason the Kaga encounters aren't working? I get the prompt "Do you wish to encounter : Angry Outcasts ?" But if I click yes the screen goes black for a bit and then I'm back to the world map. It even happens a few times in a row.
 
^ They've been working for me, untill I used Outdoorsman to dodge one, and then I've never seen Kaga again.
 
New version: https://yadi.sk/d/2J5lTzfcaZikd

v0.6.1:
> Bug fixes:
- fixed not beign able to push Vic
- fixed several bugs related to traps
- mole rat hide now drops from Pinky & Brain
- fixed wrong ammo types found in guns and wrong ammo amount in the last pack in stacks (will apply when pickup from container or put weapon in hand)

> Balance
- Salvatore gang members were made tougher
- Increased number of guards in Vault 15
- replaced ALL combat armor in SAD with Metal Mk2 (to fight Salvatores)
- early traps made more appealing: spike traps work in 1 hex radius like sensor traps, skill requirement reduced
- adjusted some crafting schematics
- removed ability to steal full stock from Modoc general store
- added restockable non-stealable money pool to all NR drug dealers
- Eldrige inventory is reduced upon his death (was gamebreaking loot)
- reduced range of all shotguns, restored single mode for Pancor
- reduced laser rifle max damage
- rearranged loot in 2 rooms at EPA security level; only one room is "jammed" now (with better loot)
- added "don't touch that" checks to containers at slaver camp

> New features:
- all geckos and some rats and molerats can now be lured into traps outside of combat using appropriate food
- changed crafting skill requirements: now some schematics will require a sum of two skills instead of two separate skills. This allows for more flexibility in character development.
- ability to craft Super Tool Kit at some point
- changed encounter table for area around Vault Village: now you will encounter Mole rats in accordance to appropriate quest status
- reduced range at which abbey deathclaws start combat (to be able to use traps)
- moved tentacles quest from doctor to Henry next door (more appropriate)
- added trigger to be attacked by bots on S.A.D first floor
 
First, I would like to say that this mod is probably one of the best ever made for F2. Seriously. I even gave up Magnus' Weapons Redone to give this a shot... and I have yet to regret that decision (and his mod is exemplary). It truly makes this a more varied and engrossing game. Like a RPG should be. Excellent. The EPA loot being more difficult to obtain, the enemies being more difficult, guns actually being deadly, traps and barter being useful, the different ammo types, the grenade launchers, reduced loot, stimpak radiation, Lujo's flow fixes (go Lujo!) ... I could go on and on. It's the most fun I've had with this game since I first played it with Killap's RP. I'm glad I gave it a try. It is just superb, phobos.

However, I would like to maybe give a few opinions on it... that I hope will only help motivate you and let me bounce some ideas with a great modder such as yourself. What follows is (hopefully) constructive criticism. If that's not what you're looking for now, then just re read my first paragraph and know that you have made one old-school Fallout fanboy very happy!

Anyway, enough praise! Some critiques/suggestions:
First, good call on the Laser Rifle reduction. I was going to mention it today actually. It's insanely powerful against anything that's not a fire gecko or in metal armor (so 90% of enemies). I picked one up yesterday with my character, and it was able to one shot most enemies, critical or not. Lower the max damage not only keeps it from being overpowered, it also makes it much more consistent in the damage it does deal - which makes sense for lasers I think. This is coming from someone who uses the Laser Rifle until the Oil rig. I love it to be powerful, but it was a bit much.

Second, I'm not sure how much sense it makes to have metal armor (of any kind) in an army depot. I would think only combat armor should be found, since metal armor is canonically make-shift and not mass produced as military body armor is. Though it may be useful in-game, I personally think it breaks immersion when I find homemade metal armor in a pre-war army base. I'm using the previous version, and I have not yet entered SAD to see what the loot is like, but I think it was probably fine with a combat armor and maybe a laser rifle or minigun.


And finally, I think the biggest area for additional content is with your version of Mr. Fixit. It is so intuitive and adds a phenomenal amount of playability and enjoyment to the game. Perhaps an ammo creator could be implemented? Something as simple as changing most HP variants to FMJ or AP (with the correct resources) would be quite a good fit. On top of that, maybe we can learn how to upgrade existing high-power weaponry with the appropriate science/guns skill? (i.e. you can craft a turbo plasma rifle with science>100%, energy weapons >120, and maybe some resource intensive craft materials?). These are just suggestions, and they may be more trouble than they are worth to implement, so that's entirely your arena.

I'll be finishing my latest playthrough with your previous version sometime this weekend, so I plan on starting back up with this latest version in the near future as well.

Excellent mod!
 
Thanks for the feedback!

Second, I'm not sure how much sense it makes to have metal armor (of any kind) in an army depot. I would think only combat armor should be found, since metal armor is canonically make-shift and not mass produced as military body armor is. Though it may be useful in-game, I personally think it breaks immersion when I find homemade metal armor in a pre-war army base. I'm using the previous version, and I have not yet entered SAD to see what the loot is like, but I think it was probably fine with a combat armor and maybe a laser rifle or minigun.
Well, I see your point. It was actually Lujo who convinced me to put metal armor in there, because of several reasons:
1) you get hook to SAD from Wrights who say Salvatares are too strong and they need some equipment from that base to fight them. Metal Armor Mk2 costs 3 times less than Combat armor (less loot), but at the same time it gives much better protection against laser weapons (which Salvatores use), so this is exactly the equipment you can use against them.
2) there was way too much free combat armors in different locations (Toxic Caves, SAD, EPA, ...).

Metal armor mk2 (the shiny one) doesn't look home made to me, actually.


And finally, I think the biggest area for additional content is with your version of Mr. Fixit. It is so intuitive and adds a phenomenal amount of playability and enjoyment to the game. Perhaps an ammo creator could be implemented? Something as simple as changing most HP variants to FMJ or AP (with the correct resources) would be quite a good fit. On top of that, maybe we can learn how to upgrade existing high-power weaponry with the appropriate science/guns skill? (i.e. you can craft a turbo plasma rifle with science>100%, energy weapons >120, and maybe some resource intensive craft materials?). These are just suggestions, and they may be more trouble than they are worth to implement, so that's entirely your arena.
There is already an ammo creator, doing exactly what you want. From version 0.6 Vic will give you a hint on finding him. As for weapon upgrades, I dumped the idea initially. There is already enough weapon upgraders in the game, and I thought doing weapon upgrades yourself is too difficult without proper workbench (and you craft without it).

PS: Vic push bug is back, updated installer, please redownload
 
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First, I would like to say that this mod is probably one of the best ever made for F2. Seriously.

No kiddin? XD

(Don't tell anyone I've been playtesting it up and down for a month ; )

As for the SAD and immersion, that was mine, but there was a bigger immersion breaker that needed to be solved and SAD was too much free loot city for a decade. As phobos said - salvatores are feared in New Reno for their laser weapons, but are wimps, yet if you buff them (as has been done in the mod to make Them, Wrights and Mordino's not break immersion with every line about it), anyway if you buff them, then the player has no chance to fight them when he comes to New Reno naturally. And the end slides say that opening the SAD let Wrights take Salvatores out.

So in order to trim the flood of combat armors in the game (and especially combat armors you can reach before Vault 15 and 13, there's still probably more free combat armors than all other armors put togather, no joke), anyway, the ones in SAD had to go. And New Reno was the perfect place to be upgrading either MK II leathers or Regular Metal into Metal MK II (and with Gameflofixes you can actually play a good part of NR naturally without going into NCR). Metal MK II turned out to be better against lasers specificaly than even combat armor, so now the Wright story adds up, and the player can do what the story sayes - open up SAD, get the advanced goodies for a team of people, and kick salvatore's asses. Without actually breaking immersion, armor progression, flow or anything ^^

Or even - gasp - the market! You can now open up SAD, and not break the market. And you can open it as early as you're supposed to AND you still get gear that's an upgrade to what you had, most likely! When have you ever seen that? :)

And then when you go to NCR and find a free Combat Armor in Vault 13 and a free Combat Armor in Vault 15 and open up the Toxic Caves for another free combat armor, you're happy that you're actually UPRGRADING, instead of going "meh, more combat armors".

Essentially, that move fixed more things on more levels than is apparent at first glance. And the shinly MK II metal armor is army enough - they were looking for anti-laser gear, it has better laser protection than Combat Armor. Tesla would've been ideal for the coolness and techiness mumbo jumbo, but it protects from plasma and phobos wanted that to be ultra rare and expensive and cool, so there you have it.

Now you can enter SAD midgame (provided you don't try actually fighting the rocket bots, lol, that's for much later) and not break anything, get cool new stuff, get hyped when you get other cool new stuff later, and the whole New Reno story actually works. How's that?

I mean, phobos said no new scripts for compatibility (mod is fully compatible with anything), but that gripe could easily be adressed, just put in ANOTHER combat armor variant into the game, give it a new proto with the blue design, write "extra special pre war laser protective combat armor" with Metal MKII stats, it would be extremely easy to do, but would break compatiblity. :P

I could even do it for you if you really can't get over it, but you'd have to start over every time a new version is up XD But somehow I suspect you won't mind when you get to play it :)


(Also, the way it's supposed to work agains Salvatore's is actually really, really awesome - they got buffed with HP and AP, so they can take a longer fight, but hit with strong lasers which melt you... unless you're wearing the same armor as them. Once you walk out of SAD with that, and walk into that bar, you can see the "oh crap, this guy has the same armor as us". Two can play that game, except you've got better protection against their shooters than they have from yours XD).
 
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And, technically, I tried to take the personal tastes/fixastion aspect you can't avoid with fallout fans when I originally suggested Tesla armor because this is it's description:

Unlike the basic metal armor it strongly resembles, this armor is an actual pre-War military design[1], constructed from plans left behind by Nikola Tesla, confiscated by the US government after his death. It is designed to protect the wearer against energy attacks - three Tesla Attraction Coils disperse a large percent of directed attacks. However, since its protection against conventional firearms is comparable to the post-war metal armor, its popularity was limited, although some suits made their way to National Guard depots and from there to the wastes.[1]

(EDIT: Which would make this move probably restoring original content because whoever wrote that description was given lines "make up a story for a purely plot related laser protective armor that's supposed to go in the SAD, but make a justification for it not looking like combat armor because it's supposed to appear before the player has seen a combat armor, and we allready put a stupid label on metal armors so there will be nitpickers". I bet you a 1000$ this qoute was said by someone to someone during the development of the game word for word. The guy in charge of the stats was probably told to make it useless in any other situation so that opening the SAD didn't give people too much loot. God knows what went wrong afterwards, that was was a silly and rushed development.)

Which means that flavor wise this is the item that should've been in that base, you'd be recreating lore 100%. What shot that suggestion down was running into another "This breaks immersion" from phobos, who was very adamant about it being an ultra cool late game armor (because of plasma protection or something) and so shouldn't be there or have it's stats changed, so we found that the next best stats for the puropse of protecting from lasers were on Metal MK II, that fit the progression perfectly, and that was that.

So, err, the potential immersion breaking actually isn't my fault at all, I tried to account for that too, but you can't have everything in life, can you?

(Allthough the argument that giving away a plasma protection armor for free being silly is valid. THAT got in the way of lore, and that didn't even occur to me as I never even used it in 10 years of playing Fallout 2. I think the developers intended New Reno to play out the way it works in the mod now, and I wouldn't mind Tesla armor losing plasma protection, and just making you REALLY crazy vs. lasers and being usable just for that one fight. You get a free Sniper, a free laser rifle and other goodies in SAD. The way it played out, with Metal Mk II is still fine, if you're in new reno and you have better than that, you were sequence skipping anyway.)



Playtesting dug up a bunch of these, it tends to happen when a modder tries to make a sensible, linear or neat weapon adjustments set across the board without taking into account how the different weapons/items/stuff is actually distributed around the game and what is supposed to have what properties for plot/quest/zoning reasons. There's parts to this game which don't work like an open world RPG, but more like a point and click adventure, it's just the way it is.



And also, there is an ammo crafting teacher, who lets you make AP variants of stuff, haven't you found him? I personally think that one was going overboard, because the unavailability of AP ammo is a huge balancing factor on various weapons, but what can you do, people love to shoot the guns they think are cool all game and at every enemy, I suppose...


So, err, @J_Fred , ummm, do you want me to mod you up that laser protecting combat armor with appropriate stats and put it there, or do you not mind so much anymore? It's not very difficult, I think.

EDIT: With the other stuff I agree :)
 
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Just to let you guys know where I'm coming from... I do alter things a bit. I halve the ammo stacks (a brick of 10mm is 10, MicroFusion 8, .223 is 8, 7.62 is 10, etc...) while keeping prices the same, and some weapon prices are dropped (mostly low end). On top of this I also chose the "harsh" setting, along with stimpack irradiation, 25% weapon drop and 50% ammo drop. My game settings are normal, combat settings to highest difficultly. Suffice this to say that my playthrough may be a bit rougher than the average Fallout player.


With that being said...
If you think there should be an armor that protects more against laser, then to me it only makes sense to have combat armor or tesla armor in the SAD. To my knowledge, metal armor has always been make shift. Even the game sprites seem to indicate that it's "crude". It really does break immersion for me to find make shift armor in a military vault that's been sealed for two generations. It's the only problem that I have with the new updates. As far as market breaking... I'm playing with the "harsh" economy setting, barter is 120+, and even if I had 5 spare combat armors I wouldn't be able to make more than one good run in the NCR or San Fran shops before I was back to being broke (I have 2-4 companions). I think it's fine to keep 4-5 combat armors around (maybe even different variants), as they really don't bring much cash to the character, and are only useful if you have companions or want the dermal armor implants. If someone wants it to be harsher, then selecting the harsh economy mod and cutting ammo stacks in half would bring it back to masochistic levels. (that's what I do!)

If you put in a laser resistant combat variant... that may be okay, as long as it is balanced out somehow. Maybe slightly better than regular combat armor but not on Mk.II or Brotherhood's level. (The Brotherhood combat armor isn't far behind Power armor). I'm not sure the best way to do this. Maybe less normal and explosion resistance?

Okay, and now another critique : The Raider Caves. First off... I LOVE the trap set up. But here's the thing - going through the caves with companions is SO GOD DAMN ANNOYING. I have literally never been so pissed off at a Fallout game before. Plus, if your companions are stupid enough to fall down the pits, the whole party falls. I think it may be best to make it so only the Hero can fall, as I would assume he would tell his companions there is a 10 foot drop into a radscorpion pit (though seeing Vic fall down there may be quite hilarious). So I think the map changes are excellent, but the fact that companions are so fucking retarded needs to be accounted for by making them resistant to at least the pits, if not the traps as well. Just a suggestion.



Phobos, can you craft all ammo types or just the .223 AP, grenades, 14mmAP and shotgun slugs? I may have not found the correct teacher for each of these. Crafting some 5mm AP would be excellent. I like to have an Anvenger minigun for those "oh shit kill everything" moments. And 5mm AP is rare and costly (which I like).

I still think a weapon creator would be nice... maybe a plasma transformer, super tool kit, and a Plasma rifle could be made into a turbo plasma rifle? Just a thought.
 
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^ Gotta back you up on the raiders cave bit, but that's just the RP probably never getting proper feedback on it as I guess everyone always found the Gas Entrance more easily than the "regular" one, so very few people ever saw that map. Me included, the goodies at the scorpions were a complete surprise XD Or is that Original game?

And I was impossible frustrated by the pits, you wouldn't believe, but then I figured out that the whole thing is one big puzzle and that you can actually find a path where noone will fall down (btw it's really on whoever designed that thing, and it's a hilarious reason WHY they're guarding the other exit, whoever would get through the mines and the scorpions would get rage-inducingly frustrated by the pits and give up. They, however have a guide ^^ We didn't actually touch that map, lol, we just put it in a place where an actual playtester has a reason to try it out :) ).

As for the SAD armor, Combat Armor changes the rules of the game like no other thing (even power armor) and there is absolutely 0 gameplay sense in having it in the SAD. There are enough of them in the game to outfit a team and buy all the implants, and still have left over. And they are all free and quite easy to get (either just easy, or inevitable as they are tied to the main quest), which is another big economy clogger in the fact that you'll never, under any circumstances buy armor. The least bit of decency considering various armors, though, is giving them out in somewhat proper sequence, as advancing armor is basically the visual indicator of having moved into and reaped the benefits of another area. The critters ussually found in any given area are armed appropriately, so this "upgrade" can also be felt. This is how the game works.

Now, if you put all the gameplay reasons the have Metal Armor Mk II in SAD and all the concequences and games internal logic rule breaking that results from having Combat Armor there on one side, and the complaint about it not making "sense" for "not being military enough" on the other, the notion that it was somehow a bad change is unreasonable if we're being diplomatic, and insane if we're not. It would also have you acquiring a special set of combat armor before you actually find the regular combat armor.

Tesla armor has strange stats, and giving it away for free, as is, would have unforseen concequences. It has ridiculous laser protection, but also other protections. Altering it's stats when MK II metal armor basically has the exact stats it's supposed to have (I'd bump it's laser resistance as it's a bit too low and effectively irrelevant in the game afaik), pushes either one or the other out.

What I was suggesting is not adding another Combat Armor to the game, there are enough to outfit a crew and buy implants. Phobos could remove the bridgekeeper and a few more CA's and there'd still be enough. What I suggested was to make YOU, personally, a one time mod which adds an item with the exact same stats as metal armor has, graphics for a blue combat armor (I have the graphics but I'm not sure if making them apply to people is too much work), and editing it's description and name. I might break compatibilities with stuff, it may not, but I'd do it because I'm greatful for your playtesting and at the same time my mind is blown that anyone in the world could actually seriously ask for something like that for the reasons you are asking.

And also the fact that the whole entire new reno big questline w 3 families makes 0 sense, as in breaks immersion extremely, this being fixed, is not enough of a tradeoff for not finding an armor that "feels" right as opposed to an armor which breaks rather well set and enforced progression logic of the game... I'd make you that mod, but I'd be speechless that someone actually asked for it.


(phobos might be closer to your line of thinking, though, as we've actually managed to have an argument over should the M60 in EPA be freely acessible or not. He thought it was a strong weapon, I was certain it's the weakest semi reliable big gun put there so you can give Cat anything at all. But he kept insisting it was strong, so I went and checked... and it turns out he buffed it -.- Because he thought it wasn't accurately represented. Whenever someone does something to this game, and it's related to items, and it involves the phrase "it was breaking my immersion", it never ends in balancing. There's great stuff in there, and most other weapon and ammo mods are worse, the grenades work, the traps work, but now the post-den encounter map needs serious work, and I'm working on it ATM, because basic shotguns which don't break immersion break balance like you wouldn't believe.

Oh and get this - you know you can learn cooking from mom? Turn otherwise useless meats and fishes + fruit into food which regenerates your health but doesn't irradiate you? They have great sinergly with the flow if you get the recipie in the den, and go to the Umbra Tribe where there's tons of food for free, and they work like a less powerful but much easier to craft stimpak which doesn't irradiate you. Basicaly gamebreaking, for several reasons, but get this - there are people actually asking for "more variants of stimpaks" to be added and more easily craftable than the regular stimpak (which is the way it is for good reasons). You can turn 2 pieces of meat and a fruit, complete junk, into effectively stimpaks, who's only downside is weight, and people are asking for... more stimpak variants. -.-)
 
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A new stimpak? That's overkill. I don't need a new combat armor, I thought you already had one in the works, so I was supporting you!

I'll stand by my argument against home made post apocalyptic metal armor being in a 200 year old pre-apocalypse military base that nobody has entered since the war. It makes no sense. You have to see that what I'm getting at?

But, it's not like the mapper is hard to use. I can just remove it. Honestly, metal armor mk.II doesn't really have a place, unless you conveniently drop it in the SAD. But ignoring lore, breaking immersion and forgoing the logistical impossibility of it even being 60 yards underground don't make up for the early/mid game flow fixes it brings to the table. We can agree to disagree, but I think the gains do not out weight the costs (in this case, gameflow vs. nonsensicality).


Anyway, I digress. This mod is fucking amazing. One little armor in a weird place isn't barely mentionable. The only reason I bring it up is because I'm sure many other purists would have issue with it as well. Or maybe not. Doesn't matter, this mod is so damn enjoyable.
 
^ Good luck w the salvatores if you remove it XD If you do remove it, the proto editor is also sorta easy to use, just lower the plasma resistance and the price on the Tesla armor and stick it in there in stead (2 in fact, as there are 2 instead of one combat armor. Don't put a combat armor in, thouhg, it might not be good enoug against lasers).

And Mk II indeed does have a place, it's just that some idiot put a combat armor in SAD, and then everyone was quaking before nitpicks instad of doing the obvious thing for years and years. I'd rather have the main story of the biggest city in the game make sense, and the bigest gamebreaking location not break the game, and... Eh, i had a hard argument with phobos over this when I suggested Tesla armor (which is the painfuly obvious-from-an-airplane-plane shoe in for that location), and I'm sensitive over the issue. The shiny one is fancy enough, I don't buy that's it's hommemade (guy who originaly put crating into the game had to put in an actual blacksmith to teach you how to craft them, it was stupid to the extreme), and as you have noticed, debating a label over functionality over this the deffinition of wrong.

Take the stimpak comment and think about it. There allready IS an item which functions about as well as an unlimited easily craftable stimpak, recipie available at the Den just before you have a really good reason to go to Umbra which is loaded with components for crafting it. People are asking phobos could he put in a "lesser, more easily craftable stimpak" in the game. As in, not "ANOHER lesser easily craftable stimpak", but even just one. Because the one that's there totaly isn't there. Because it's not labeled "stimpak". Don't ever catch yourself anywhere in the vicinity of being like these people. Enjoy the mod, and keep up the good feedback, I got your back on most other stuff.

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So my constructive feedback and thoughts on various other stuff:

I wouldn't even mind weapon upgrades if algernon would get a boot as a concept. However, phobos has, and I'm pretty sure of it by now, misjudged the need to buff weapons, so there's not much point to upgrading most of the later ones anyway. Phobos also wanted all the crafting teachers to be available early, he overdid it initally and put leathercrafting on vic, and a whole bunch of other stuff which got moved to more proper places after playtesting and a lot of argument. I couldn't possibly convince him that if he wanted the early drugs to be available early he shouldn't have put them in Redding, so now I'm looking at the encounter tables and the worldmap and preparing to mod redding slightly to actually be acessible and have something for you to do if you get there as an alternative to going to Modoc (seriously, there's not many hooks for that place, and there's litterally nothing to do if you come ealry, Frog Morton doesn't even spawn, the landmines aren't there, sheriff doesn't give you even the easy quests, and even if you've done everything there is and then some in the Den the rats in Redding will still be able to kill you). Which is fine because the weapon changes messed up the encounters between Den and Modoc and Redding (and they were messed up to begin with), and Redding is criminaly underdeveloped, so that was always on my list anyway.

And since I wanted to be able to see the big picture, I also got to see the glory that is the RP content and what the it's zones did to help it's integration, which is not much. I have to say, the EPA encounter zone in particular is messed up and needs tweaking, so i'll be doing something about that too. If phobos likes what I do he might put it in his mod too. I personaly think that the whole exploration and trade routes thing apsolutely needs dialogues and ways to get informed about it in game, but phobos doesn't like adding new ones since he'd have to translate them to russian. I'll still probably make them, because that's a really lousy reason not to.

As for guns, it's probably what I'm least satisfied with about the mod... Higher prices, lower drops, lower sales, less ammo around, AP ammo on some critters, working grenades, working traps, some random encounter weapon adjustments, some damage resistance tweaks on enemeis, that's all great (and probably fixed any problem guns had anyway), but the other stuff... I guess it's the closest you can get to someone who would go fiddle with guns at all not going full retarded with "realism", but...

IF there was a point to later game weapon upgrades (there isn't ATM), I'd certainly like the idea of not relying on a gimmick like algernon for them. You'd have to revert most of the buffs on late game stuff first, but that would actually be good because then maybe I'd buy something when I get to san fran. And probably do away with the exotic ammo crafting too, or do something to the AP ammo, because lack of it is a big factor in moving on to better guns, and now there's no lack of it. Phobos did seem to do something to it to make it more sensible, and I love the crafting recipie (rocks ftw), but AP shotguns are a bad idea.

.223 AP ammo is also kind of silly, because it not being AP was kinda the only balancing on stuff that uses it. The fact that it's easy to skip the hunting rifle entirely (you get a free assault rifle in Modoc, and the only free hunting rifle is in Redding, but at the time you'd want it getting there takes 7 reloads and you can't do anything there, like, litteraly nothing, if you have money to pay for the crafting it's a miracle). So anyway, you kinda easily skip the hunting rifle, pile up the .223 ammo since nothing seems to be using it in the midgame, get a few .223 pistols later and never run out. The fact it takes only 4 ap to fire it is also a bit much.

I also think phobos (or Magnus) might've misjudged the rarity on 7.92 ammo. FAL's were used on en-masse on raiders as a strictly inferior burst capable mid-game rifle that the raiders have and have loads of ammo for, otherwise they'd had Assault Rifles which would give you too much minigun ammo when you killed them, and were ment to not be very good originally to let you arm your whole team with sub par equipment for which you have a huge stack of ammo. I think he though M60 would be used more, but the only way to do that is to finaly doctor the Den, Redding and EPA encounter tables (and also make redding actually work somewhat if you come early, EPA allready works better as mid game than late) so you can get it on time. Anything that uses 7.92 after New Reno or Vault 15 is competing with Sniper Rifles and that's a lost cause.

Buffing plasma rifles also wasn't the best itdea, as now Melchior in Mariposa can 1 shot kill you which makes you want to kill him early, and that's the opposite of the point of that encounter. Making them take less AP to shoot also just made Marcus and Cat even better, and they are free +X big guns/energy weapons with or without combat control, so as soon as you see one you stick it on one of them. There's 2 free ones in Mariposa, too, which means 2 free upgraded ones via Algernon, and with bonus rate of fire that's 4 AP per shot. You could argue that you have to kill the mutants first, and phobos did buff them, but meh, that fight was always easy, should probably buff them harder.

14mm pistol dissapeared. That's what happens when you add AP ammo to everything.

Sharpened spear is still OP for something you get at the start of the game (Only 2 hex range melle weapon, that makes it worth milking for as long as possible), there's a huge gap before you can change it for anything, you can make them for the whole team. Sulik can't use cattle prods, so unless you're melle you're only melle guy has no progression untill power fist (which Algernon tuns into Mega Power fist, too). The sneak attack buffs are sorta cool, but gimicky, would be cool if Sulik could use Clubs. No knockback, too, so your melle guy doesn't have to waste AP running around. High crit range, too it I'm not much mistaken, sulik can really mess stuff up with it well into the game (so can you if for some reason go for Melle).

I'm not sure if various spiked knuckles were changed.

And the change to the AC of power armor (or smething) is making NPC's favour regular combat armor over it when told to use best armor, which is a bit of an annoyance and can certainly freak someone out. I don't really mind the nerf, that thing was too good anyway, but this + getting hit by a crit or anything that goes through it otherwise makes it more difficult to do what you're supposed to do - sit there and tank hits.

Also, the rate of bridgekeeper spawn is kind of ridiculous, since to get from Den to anywhere you go through a lot of mountains, which have an increased encounter chance, so I've yet to play a game without the free weightless combat armor. I like the slower move speed on mountains otherwise, but that thing is basically a guaranteed drop in every game, and only lvl 9 as a requirement, too.

Anyway, if the game flow works, most of the vanilla / vanilla RP weapons work as intended, and most later game stuff was just put in there for flavor and to give you a choice of stuff you can't possibly lose with (sort of like choosing your alternate ending to add a bit of replayability and memorability to the game). Never was any point to buffing them (or any need for even using most of them). The less "useful" ones were either niche solutions to particular situations (like the stuff with AP ammo) or made strictly inferior to make them less useful loot / something to give to enemies but which the player would never have a use for (sort of like gecko skins for humanoids). Games built around that, except they severely misjudged the prices.

Much of it never needed any tampering, so I kinda don't expect phobos to undo any of his changes, at least untill he takes a break from work/engine hacking to put in a playthrough and see for himself. I kinda take it as "well, everything else works better than ever" and kinda won't report on it anymore since I caught myself writing up a report the other day and most of it, if you applied it, would just revert most of the guns to back to what they were originally (I only found out later when I checked all the ones I had problems with in game). And it's phoboses mod, and he likes modding guns, and the mod is otherwise the best I've ever had a chance to play and he's thought me an incredible lot about coding so I don't personally mind.

Apart from all that and probably other stuff, and related to weapons:

I would love the ability to turn the basic flamer fuel into MK II via crafting, though. That's the only downsde to Algernon taking a day between upgrades, if you upgrade the flamer you never find usable fuel, and I'd love to have the ability to do that on the fly, even at a terrible conversion rate. Carrying 2 flamers around is just a pain.

Oh, and I'd love it if someone somewhere one day thaught how to make a one-shot camouflage kit from the makeup, and possibly craft regular lockpicks. I know that making it available earlier than Gecko / NR is = to cheating, but I dump a lot of points into lockpick every game for convinience, so I guess whoever put the lockpicks that far into the game might've misjudged it. Will provide exact details when I come up with them XD
 
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Man... I love reading your thoughts on this. I'm not sure how to fix those things... it's hard to balance game flow and realism.

I agree. Except with the metal armor placement. haha.
 
@lujo:

1) 14mm pistol didn't disappear. It is still one of the best ammo in terms of AP.
2) You are saying it like I'm a stubborn asshole that made imbalanced weapon stats and don't want to change them. In fact, I'm open to constructive suggestions. Balance between realism, lore and gameplay was the main goal of my initial mod, so I can fiddle with some weapons if you think they are overpowered to meet some kind of compromise...

I agree about Turbo Plasma Rifle (I thought this was fun idea initially, but now I understand why developers changed it in Fallout 2 in the first place), I should just add damage bonus for it.
As for the rifle itself being too powerful - I only increased it's power by little margin: 40-70, from 30-65 (in Vanilla).

I think I know what may be the a problem with energy/other guns being too strong. It's in ammo AP stats. I may need to lower them somewhat. I had doubts about them already.

PS: things I really want to stay more powerful than vanilla (one of the main initial annoyances): laser weapons, shotguns, sniper rifles, grenades, rockets (maybe), any weapon with AP ammo, throwing weapons, wakizashi :)

3) I'm yet to see when NPCs are favoring combat armor. I tried to reproduce it but failed.
 
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1) 14mm pistol didn't disappear. It is still one of the best ammo in terms of AP.

IDK, I remember using it before, and not really having an incentive to use it on the playtesting runs because other stuff worked well enough. I'd have to buy it to use it due to low drops and I didn't seem to need to invest in something to get it's functionality. I'm not sure about the numbers on it, but AP shotgun ammo pushes a bunch of other stuff out if it's usable, because shotguns were originally designed to "inherit" ammo along the power progression but be completely useless against armor as a tradeoff.

2) You are saying it like I'm a stubborn asshole that made imbalanced weapon stats and don't want to change them. In fact, I'm open to constructive suggestions. Balance between realism, lore and gameplay was the main goal of my initial mod, so I can fiddle with some weapons if you think they are overpowered to meet some kind of compromise...

You are stubborn, but you're deffinitely not an asshole, and as I said, if it wasn't for you I wouldn't have returned to Fallout 2 or ever modded anything and a lot of that has to do with you being a great guy who made many great things and has been reasonable about a lot of stuff. The problem w guns is that they just look like something that can be fixed in a neat way, but many of their stats were made with flow in mind originally. If you buff M60 enough, for example, there's no "entry level" big gun (used to be M60), because if you make any big gun closely realistic or subjectively appropriately powerful, they're all too good.

I agree about Turbo Plasma Rifle (I thought this was fun idea initially, but now I understand why developers changed it in Fallout 2 in the first place), I should just add damage bonus for it.
As for the rifle itself being too powerful - I only increased it's power by little margin: 40-70, from 30-65 (in Vanilla).

Yeah, just take into account that even people who'll skip sniper and some other silly perks, probably won't skip bonus rate of fire, and while a small increase in power can be fine on a single shot weapon (but be very careful on burst regardless of the formula), when you can fire something 2-3 times in a round it kind of efectively negates the big damage range. And if someone's playing no combat control, a later game no-burst/no AoE weapon is god-given simply because it has a lower chance to kill teammates, so that alone means it will be used if it does any damage at all.

Also, in theory not everyone will get Marcus and Cat Jules, and people play without a useful Miria, but in practice most people will particularly because as opposed to other companions they can use big guns, which makes the "need to skill big guns" as a balancing factor on them not really work (unless the weapon can only burst, and if the player isn't using combat control). Vic also becomes quite good with energy weapons (and probably the best combat companion overall) with levels (that's the joke, he's impossibly bad to start, other critters and even CO make jokes about it, but turns into a bit of a monster), so every big/gun and/or energy weapon will probably be used in every game by a character who's competent with them. This means many of them not appropriate for late game stats or increased functionality because you're kinda guaranteed being able to use them at broken hills or EPA (so generally around New Reno but possibly before you actually fight anything IN New Reno or even the raiders).

Also keep in mind that anyone looking for a way to upgrade stuff, or has just been playing for a long time will either google or know about Algernon, so it's fair to assume that upgraded variants get more play than non-upgraded ones for power fist, laser rifle and the pulse rifle (it was also true for FAL, and since you get a free upgrade in Gecko it's also true for Assault Rifle). Not getting ammo was a good move, but not necessarily enough if you want upgrades for such weapons to be a proper economy and balancing factor. It definitely breaks the basic power fist, as you can get one in BH an upgrade it right next door (and even if you don't get it that way it means you pay for basic power fist and get a free upgrade which messes up the allready tricky melle-unarmed progression).

I know people might grumble about Algernon, but you could still have him able to give you a free upgrade on a small gun, but a well thought out weapon upgrade system would certainly make the late game a lot more interesting. That way you could have somewhat sensible stats on upgreadeable late game stuff, and let the player use resources and put in an effort to make them have the "cool" stats. Added beneifit is that you can make the ugraded stats whatever you want, as it won't affect random enemies (which is why weapon upgrades exist as a mechanic in the first place - it's a way to make common weapons on enemies not be as powerful as what the player can get, or hold more ammo than an enemy needs in an encounter as they generally have fewer targets and/or aren't supposed to burst as often.)

Has to be really well thought out though, but you know how that is with crafting and flow by now.

I think I know what may be the a problem with energy/other guns being too strong. It's in ammo AP stats. I may need to lower them somewhat. I had doubts about them already.

Yeah, most likely.

PS: things I really want to stay more powerful than vanilla (one of the main initial annoyances): laser weapons, shotguns, sniper rifles, grenades, rockets (maybe), any weapon with AP ammo, throwing weapons, wakizashi :)

Eh, see, that's the problem, most of those things were problematic for power or had very, very precise and specific reasons why they weren't very good and very likely shouldn't be tinkered with. Not all of them, and noone can prevent you from doing what you want but here's a point list of in game common sense supposed to override RL sensibilities/common sense:

- Energy weapons, depending on what you do with the early game armors/general resistances , all have AP/universal ammo by default, good range and their ammo is plentiful once they become available. There's fights where you can't use them by default, but they otherwise destroy stuff. You have a laser weapon - you become the Salvatore everyone's afraid of, but they didn't make that actually work for obvious reasons (as they had too give you tons of energy cells as fuel for the car so ammo is no issue most of the time). And they're ammo efficent by default. And they're sota the best choice on many NPC's because of no burst (and Myron can onyl really use them from all weapons). And they all have free upgrades. So there's a LOT of pro's to them, regarless of the numbers on them, but you've nerfed the laser rifle allready, and with a more sensible weapon upgrade system (only for existing upgrades mind you, and probably only for the late game ones), they'd be better.

- Shotguns are also something with more related factors than it looks. You've nerfed the range allredy, which is good, but the early ones are/were being fired once per round at short range anyway and had to be reloaded practically immediately, so adding burst to them mostly means you've just increased their damage for no apparent downside. The universal ammo made them very obsolete compared to one another by default, and no AP ammo ment that you can put them on enemies and not fear the concequences of giving player ammo after every enemy kill, and no AP also ment they had to have a bit more range than makes RL sense to not make them compare really badly to other options. You've delt with the range, which is good, but AP ammo still made H&K something you can take to the Oil Rig and the early burst just means instagibs if it's working (especially if used against you, technically if all enemies who have shotguns are using it it alone means encounters need adjustments).

- Sniper Rifles... Were allready too useful and a guaranteed find on most playthrughs. They didn't need better bullets, and all that did in effect was to make FAL and M60 compete with it for ammo, and nothing can win that fight, so now everyone who drops FAL ammo (and many raiders did originally) is basically just fueling an army of people with Sniper Rifles. Also, not having burst means it's a default on NPC's, and most NPC's are great with small guns anyway. It has +1 AP cost compared to most things, but that just means bonus rate of fire doesn't contribute to it as much as other things, but it doesn't need to. As for the bozar... well, it was stupidly effective in the burst fire mode incarnation, but at least it couldn't be given to NPCs or they'd wipe the pary. Essentially, sniper rifles are silly due to aimed shots in Fallout, no need to buff them at all.

- Grenade work is good. The player isn't ready to go against grenades before Modoc (and if I tweak it a bit, redding), though, and even later some encounters are really tough with them (as you've effectively given a 2 shot rocket launcher with no reloading to people). It doesn't help that the trade route squares around the den area are putting later game enemies w them in a place where you can only realistically have leather jackets / possibly armor, but I'm working on that, that's vanilla/RP nonsense interfearing . A good thing about your grenade work is that they aren't affected by bonus rate of fire.

- Rockets - well, they're inferior to grenades because of needing a launcher, reloading and ammo being impractically heavy. The only concequences to buffing them is that the random encounters w enemies which have them would probably become instagib reload bait, from what I've seen. They're one of those things that really doesn't work symetrically, they're only good on enemies, and hugely impractical on players. There isn't really a single aspect of it that makes the rocket launcher a significantly better option than anything else, too - grenades are more practical and easy to carry, laser weapons / sniper rifles have enough range, everything else works at close range without blowing anyone up or doesn't need big guns. I've carried a rocket launcher and missiles on Marcus all game, and really tried to make use of them, but it really has too many flaws. Works too well on enemies, though, if you buff it. Good luck with this one.

- AP ammo, well, it's a good thing that it works.

- Throwing weapons (other than grenades) - well, I did a thrower playthrough, and it was quite good, we've talked about it. Big annoyance is stuff getting lost behind scenery, not much you can do about it. And thrown weapons have the same inherent problem as melle/unarmed, which is that they don't spend ammo so if they actually work the game plays completely differently. Still, it's the best that could've been done, I suppose, and I found it enjoyable. Sulik can throw stuff, so you are guaranteed to be able to use them on every playthrough, and I sometimes do.

There's quite a few enemies with spears sharpened poles and rocks in the early game and they don't throw them, Especially in the primitive tribe area. I'm curious if anything should or could be done about that and what the results would look like. I'm considering adding tribal war parties to the den area (retribution for slaving), in place of some unreasonable difficult armed ones, having them throw stuff at you would be quite good.

- Wakazashi blade - was a good idea, melle needed something useful above the spear/combat kinfe. However, i'm not sure Sulik can use it, and he's generally the main mele guy. Not sure how it works out, haven't put in a mainly melle playthrough yet, but when a version truly solves the ammo overabundance, I'll probably use it in a regular playthrough.


3) I'm yet to see when NPCs are favoring combat armor. I tried to reproduce it but failed.

Hmmm, I had every one of them favouring it. Say, could you enable combat control, give yourself the Dodger perk and try then? For science? I'd be glad if that's the reason.
 
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Ok, spent a day trying to come up with a solution to the random encounter mess, and couldn't find an easy one for several reasons. Maybe phobos or someone else could, at least I got the problems down. It's a bit of a clusterfuck, might even be solvable easily except I don't know how.

1) The area around the den in fact has very few different encounters at all, apart from DMRV_Robbers and DMRV_Highwaymen, and various stuff fighting them. These are the same guys who are the dominant encounter all over the northern part of the map untill after Modoc. Highwaymen seem to be a bit tougher, but the whole Arroyo, Klamath, Den and Umbra region doesn't prepare you to fight either, even with combat control and perk per level.

2) The "trade route squares", the desert ones, starting right ouside of the den and going in two directions are litteraly nothing but robbers, highwaymen and the ocasional caravan fighting them.

3) There's an area called "bandit mountains" between the Den and Modoc which is also mostly nothing but Robbers and Highwaymen. It's also mountains only, so you're slow and the encounters are more likely to occur. Den_D, Den_M, Band_M, Mod_M and DMRV_D and _M are all basically loaded with these guys.

4) The only other tiles in the Den area have DVMV_Highwaymen and robbers, and they're even worse, they're the ones that appea between Modoc and Vault City, so trying to go that way is even worse. The Redding tiles themselves don't have them, but they have even worse enemies with Light Support Weapons (and at least a few peaceful encounters, but people in them are also significantly better armed).

5) The buffs to early weapons and giving these guys grenades, the crafting money sinks (which pay off well in the game before this point) and the fact that the Tyler gang doesn't guarantee 2 desert eagles anymore because of random drops (and I had to use psycho to survive that fight even thogh I had another gang on my side), makes these guys too damned tough to fight. The way mountains work doesn't help, and the fact that there are few other enemies around the den doesn't help either. You go from melle bandits with spears, war parties and slavers who for some reason don't always use their weapons to these guys.


So if Redding was supposed to be acessible early, and going from modoc to Redding and vice versa is supposed to work, I think the following needs to be done, but I'm not sure, and I'm not actually even in charge of the combat stuff I got here from the flow direction (so phobos might know of more elegant solutions than me):

- DMRV_Robbers and DMRV_Highwaymen have to be only a slight step up from KLA_Bandits, deffinitely no grenades, deffinitely no teamups between them and the DMRV_Robbers in the same encounter (even them fighting each other can kill you from crossfire).
- Since they're basicaly the first ranged enemies you can encounter, desert eagles and hunting rifles are too much of a step up. You can't even fight Metzger's goons at this point and they only have 10mm and a shotgun.
- I'm not even sure about giving either an SMG.

- If that's acceptable, then I'd check the exact difference between them, and ditch the stronger - ones from the tiles closer to the Den, leading in both directions untill Modoc and Redding territory, except in caravan squares and Bandit Mountains where you could encounter the other ones too.

- Then I'd have to split the DNRV tiles into 2 categories, the one next to the den with the weaker enemies, and the one between Modoc and Vault City with the stronger ones (which could have about the same equipment as all of them have now).

- Then set Claim Jumpers around Redding to only appear if you're level... eh, IDK, those guys are tougher than Raiders... Well, I could make the Redding area humanoids completely peaceful unless you attack first (which would be stupid since it's not an early area by any means).

- And that might be it. Then I adjust the Sheriff in Redding to give you the easy quests if you prove yourself to him by killing the rats in the old jail so there's anything at all to do in Redding before you're level 10, and it should work. Then if you do Modoc or Redding and Modoc, you'll have a gun or two, leather armor or two, a few more levels and some stuff, then you can maybe take on the stronger Robbers and Highwaymen.



How does all that sound?
 
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