Editorializing Fallout 3

[Kashrlyyk]

Maybe they lack the time it takes to learn and understand the system that the game is based upon. It took me awhile to learn what in the hell was going on with 1d8 long swords in BG when I was 9.

Edit

.....

Don´t forget the "THAC0". That really confused me.

 

[Jenx]

Well I suppose not actively having to worry about stats could be a good thing..but then why have it in the first place? Just remove those stats from the game. But not having to think about gear? Well what the hell kind of an RPG is that? Hell, hoarding up tons of different gear and figuring out the best combination of gear+stats+skills is what actually keeps games like Diablo (2) interesting.

Soo what the guy is saying is that the modern RPG title shouldn't resemble a RPG in any way huh? Interesting...

 

[aenemic]

Well I suppose not actively having to worry about stats could be a good thing..but then why have it in the first place? Just remove those stats from the game. But not having to think about gear? Well what the hell kind of an RPG is that? Hell, hoarding up tons of different gear and figuring out the best combination of gear+stats+skills is what actually keeps games like Diablo (2) interesting.

Soo what the guy is saying is that the modern RPG title shouldn't resemble a RPG in any way huh? Interesting...

well, I don't think a lot of people would agree that the stat min/maxing of Diablo 2 makes it an rpg...

what makes an rpg isn't really as easy as saying "it's this" or "it's that", not when talking about crpg's at least. stats definitely play a role, but I don't think being able to choose gear is in any way as important as the game putting you in a role where you have to make decisions and interact with the world around you.

 

[Jenx]

I'm not saying it's stats or gear collecting that makes a RPG a RPG. No no, there are, after all, freeform tabletop RPGs where you only have a sheet of paper and some pencils to take notes. No dices, no rules - nothing but just collective creative thinking.

But as far as computer action RPGs go - gear and stat min/maxing is what's usually the selling point of those games. And since Fallout 3 seems like an action RPG to me...well you get the idea.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Not without stats: withotu any need to actively pay attention to stats.

Number crunching is actually half the fun in many RPGs and cRPGs. I understand the need for games with stats that do not need to be crunched (Diablo), but I don't really see it as a good trend to make this "avoid crunching" a staple of the genre. It's a plus, not a burden to be avoided.

Unless you have ADD. Or are stupid.

That's what I was saying. Even the aRPGs that do not have hard number-crunching involved, like Diablo or whatnot, still have you pay attention to how you develop your skills. In Diablo it is kind of important to develop properly, or you'll get your arse handed to you on later levels. Equipment meant a great deal too. So it's not like every aRPG is made to not have people think; in fact, a good half of aRPG fun is stat development, albeit not in a form of "number-crunching".

I simply disagree that there could or should be an RPG game that does not have you care about stat/ability development and equipment, because that pretty much takes away anything else that is RPG from an already crippled game in the department of roleplaying.

Don´t forget the "THAC0". That really confused me.

Oh boy, at first THAC0 gave me grief too. Especially since I played NWN and TOEE before I got to BG2... Never thought two editions of D&D could be that different. Made much more sense the second I wiki-ed wtf that meant =)

well, I don't think a lot of people would agree that the stat min/maxing of Diablo 2 makes it an rpg...

As an action RPG, that's pretty much all that Diablo has in the RPG department. Take that away and it becomes an absolutely senseless grinding isometric action game with no reason or purpose, since it has close to nothing in the ways of decision-making or environment interaction other than killing, looting and shopping. I'd love to come up with other examples of roleplaying in Diablo but I really can't. Maybe I have not played it enough. It seems like the game is generally about power-leveling.

Thus, see my comment on Brother None's post as to why I think taking out importance of stats out of an action RPG is a bad idea.

 

[Atomic Cowboy]

You know better than that, Hoka, putting "idiot" in the quote marks isn't funny, and we don't like personal attacks on journos. Attack the opinion all you want, not the person.

<blockquote>Fallout 3 is great because it shows the modern gamer why the role playing title can be enjoyed without worrying about stats, gear or very long dialog tree.</blockquote>

In other words, not being a role-playing game.

An Action Role Playing Game, perhaps. I never really got logic like this much either, essentially he's saying "it's great because it hides everything that makes it an RPG". Uh ok then

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I think what he's trying to say is that by easing the process of starting up an RPG - simpler number crunching, simpler interface, a bit of hand-holding - gamers who've never touched the RPG genre before might give it a shot and say "Oohh... hey, this is kind of fun. Say, I should see if I can find an Intermediate or Advanced leve-difficulty RPG - even more complex numbers would be fun!" I could be a gateway drug, is what I think he's saying.

Where I disagree with him is that this is nothing new. The market is inundated with games like Zelda* or Fable**, that offer the player RPG-lite, and it's not as if this 'compromise' (which really wasn't a compromise, when you think about it - the console kiddies got everything they wanted, while we just got a few left over scraps thrown to us) - ahem - it's not as if this compromise is anything new. It's been done a hundred times before, there's a new RPG-lite released every couple of months...

So why would you do it to Fallout? One of the most involved and complex RPGs ever made - why would you dumb it down for them, when they already have plenty of other options? Implying that it will lead to greater interest in RPGs is disingenuous.

I'd love to come up with other examples of roleplaying in Diablo but I really can't. Maybe I have not played it enough. It seems like the game is generally about power-leveling.

One of my friends was hugely into Diablo back in the day, and he described the game as 'card collecting.' (He also said I "Don't Get What The Game Is About" when I asked what the ontological effects were of killing two of the three primevils.)

*Zelda's a great series, I ain't saying otherwise - but it's still RPG-lite
**Fable: Never played, never will, I hear it sucks. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm xenophobic and prejudiced, but I don't care.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Zelda isn't a RPG or even an ARPG, it's an Action/Adventure series. Where the idea that's it's a RPG came from is beyond me, but it's an old misconception.

 

[simdude]

I myself have gotten to the level cap of 20. However, I noticed during a load screen that there was a bar that went from 20 to 21

Example:

|
20 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 21

Of course my exp stopped at 20 just like everyone else, but I wonder if this is an indication of their possibly being an expansion or DLC that will raise the level..

Regards.

As it can be found on their official site ...
"Three downloadable content packs will be coming to Xbox 360 and Games for Windows Live starting in January that will add new quests, items, and content to Fallout 3.

* Operation: Anchorage. Enter a military simulation and fight in one of the greatest battles of the Fallout universe – the liberation of Anchorage, Alaska from its Chinese Communist invaders. An action-packed battle scheduled for release in January.
* The Pitt. Journey to the industrial raider town called The Pitt, located in the remains of Pittsburgh. Choose your side. Scheduled for release in February.
* Broken Steel. Join the ranks of the Brotherhood of Steel and rid the Capital Wasteland of the Enclave remnants once and for all. Continues the adventure past the main quest. Scheduled for release in March."

I'm telling ya guys! Fallout 4 will be even less a RPG, and more FPS but still people will be calling it a Role Playing Game!


The End is NEAR!!

*and he runs away like a little biatch*

At least they could try to make Fallout4 a good FPS.

To me, Fallout 3 is a poor FPS with some Fallout memorabilia in it. Anyway, based on the little-by-little addon missions releasing formula they appear to have their minds set on, I don't think Fallout 4 can arrive earlier than 2013. They can keep putting a new mission up for download anytime they want, keeping the title "alive" for a long-long time. They've got plenty of locations in the game where new missions can be added later on.

 

[aenemic]

I'm not saying it's stats or gear collecting that makes a RPG a RPG. No no, there are, after all, freeform tabletop RPGs where you only have a sheet of paper and some pencils to take notes. No dices, no rules - nothing but just collective creative thinking.

But as far as computer action RPGs go - gear and stat min/maxing is what's usually the selling point of those games. And since Fallout 3 seems like an action RPG to me...well you get the idea.

definitely. it's sad that the stats have become what makes a game an rpg. but it's not that strange, which leads me to the next reply:

Zelda isn't a RPG or even an ARPG, it's an Action/Adventure series. Where the idea that's it's a RPG came from is beyond me, but it's an old misconception.

Zelda is considered and widely accepted as the first video game rpg. wrongfully so, if you ask me. but it carried over the most logical parts from an rpg to a video game: dungeon crawling, item and money collecting and sort of a levelling up system.

As an action RPG, that's pretty much all that Diablo has in the RPG department. Take that away and it becomes an absolutely senseless grinding isometric action game with no reason or purpose, since it has close to nothing in the ways of decision-making or environment interaction other than killing, looting and shopping. I'd love to come up with other examples of roleplaying in Diablo but I really can't. Maybe I have not played it enough. It seems like the game is generally about power-leveling.

my point wasn't that there are other parts of Diablo making it an rpg. my point was that it's not an rpg.

I'd say that the main thing that makes a crpg an rpg for me is a dialogue system where you can choose what your character says. stats, gear, levelling up etc is all secondary to that.

 

[Brother None]

Zelda is considered and widely accepted as the first video game rpg. wrongfully so

Indeed wrongfully, since Akalabeth predates the first Zelda by 7 years.

In fact, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone claim Zelda is the first cRPG. It's common knowledge Akalabeth is.

 

[aenemic]

Zelda is considered and widely accepted as the first video game rpg. wrongfully so

Indeed wrongfully, since Akalabeth predates the first Zelda by 7 years.

In fact, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone claim Zelda is the first cRPG. It's common knowledge Akalabeth is.

Akalabeth is a computer game, not a video game.

 

[Brother None]

I think you're using a definition of video game that I do not subscribe to. As far as I know, by its widest used definition, computer games are video games.

 

[aenemic]

I think you're using a definition of video game that I do not subscribe to. As far as I know, by its widest used definition, computer games are video games.

then you've simply chosen not to listen to what I'm saying.

I didn't decide Zelda was the first video game rpg. I just said that's a common belief. one that assumes there's a difference between computer games and video games.

remember that these mediums come from different parts of the world as well.

I like how you're trying to prove me wrong when we even share the same opinion.

 

[Jenx]

...Actually no, he's right. Computer games ARE video games. And if you really really wonna dig further in to this - console games (which I assume is what you consider "video games") are computer games too, since....well, they are a COMPUTER, right? It's electronics that make the NES run, not a hamster in a wheel.

Anyway, I somehow get the feeling that the only people who consider Zelda to be the first RPG in...any medium, are probably the Nintendo fanboys who also think Nintendo created air, shoes, bread, fire and the wheel.

 

[Trithne]

Not to mention Akalabeth was also presented in first-person, completely defying statements that Fallout 1 and 2 were isometric because First-person couldn't be done then. (Never mind Doom, or Deux Ex)

 

[Ausdoerrt]

**Fable: Never played, never will, I hear it sucks. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm xenophobic and prejudiced, but I don't care.

Fable I is a fun game, but boring on the second playthrough. I treated it as more of an action game, it's not really an RPG. An XBOX RPG, maybe. In short, a fun but disposable game.

 

[Forhekset]

aenemic, I'm nearly 30 years old, and you're the first person I've ever heard claim that Zelda is a RPG, or that it's a "common belief" that Zelda is a RPG. Zelda is an action/adventure series.

The only thing close to a RPG in the Zelda series is Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

aenemic, I'm nearly 30 years old, and you're the first person I've ever heard claim that Zelda is a RPG, or that it's a "common belief" that Zelda is a RPG. Zelda is an action/adventure series.

The only thing close to a RPG in the Zelda series is Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.

Nah, I heard a lot of it back when Ocarina of Time was first released which I assumed was carried over from the previous two titles (which I had rented). I didn't hear it for Twilight Princess so maybe it's since faded away but it's an old misconception. Anyone know where it came from, like was it something that Nintendo claimed?

 

[Forhekset]

aenemic, I'm nearly 30 years old, and you're the first person I've ever heard claim that Zelda is a RPG, or that it's a "common belief" that Zelda is a RPG. Zelda is an action/adventure series.

The only thing close to a RPG in the Zelda series is Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.

Nah, I heard a lot of it back when Ocarina of Time was first released which I assumed was carried over from the previous two titles (which I had rented). I didn't hear it for Twilight Princess so maybe it's since faded away but it's an old misconception. Anyone know where it came from, like was it something that Nintendo claimed?

Nope, Zelda has always been described as an adventure series by Nintendo. I've been a shameless Nintendo fanboy for a long time now, and I don't recall them ever marketing Zelda as a RPG. I can only guess that it comes from gamers who've never played a real RPG, and Zelda is the closest they've come?

Here are a couple of examples of what Nintendo thought was effective marketing for The Legend of Zelda. No mention of the words "role-playing game", but plenty of "Go Link yeah, get some!".

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmFinopAcE4[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoXb7PIJYmA[/youtube]

 

[BloodyPuppy]

Oh wow... Those were.... Those were pretty awful.

And what the fuck was up with that second one? Seriously, that one was just scary.